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flyfishinPam
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Registered: 8-20-2003
Location: Loreto, BCS
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Mood: gone fishin'
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I just met with the park again
and thought I was going to get chewed out for putting this to everyone's attention. turned out it was a very positive meeting and now I have more
homework- to draw up some proposals on park management from a sportfishing point of view. Unfortunately during the last meeting which set the rules
(5 years ago) our industry was never represented. This will not be the case next time. We will go head to head with the commercials and present
arguments every bit at good as theirs, if not much better.
They argue that sportfishers can catch any kind of specie they want- I argue that there are limits on those catches. They argue that foreigners can
catch lots of fish then sell it when they leave Mexico- I argue that that is the case in rare instances and that increasing airline baggage
restrictions prevents this from happening for the most part
They say sport anglers are fishing for fun and the commercials are fishing for their food - I say if they don't like it, find another line of work.
If sporfishing dies here altogether that's what we'll have to do. Nobody owes us anything but we'll fight till the end. 
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Skipjack Joe
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GO PAM!
They're exagerating the negatives of sportifishing and minimizing those of the commercial industry. Now, it's your turn to do the same, but in
reverse. That's the way people get their points across in life.
It's not that much different from our OFF TOPIC board.
It's a wonder anything moves forward in life, really.
A little 'mordida' could go a long way right about now.
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Osprey
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Pam, I hope you'll keep reminding them that the government of Mexico has sold all the fish there is to sell "outside the park" to the highest bidder
(mostly people who live far from Mexican waters) for more years than we can count. The fish that remain, those that swim all the oceans of the
planet, the fish that do not belong to Mexico or Mexicans have been sold if they swim in or near Mexican waters including this little sea. Only those
that have escaped capture and sale, come close to or into the park are the ones left to argue about. Sportfishing has not decimated the dorado or the
yellowtail. Remind them that all the really big money from the environmental disregard that led to the need to meet and decide anything local is in
dirty pockets in D.F., that's a long way from Loreto.
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msawin
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Location: Grass Valley,Ca / Tripui
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Do not want to here this.....
Well I got to tell you..
5 years ago my Bass fishing partner and I went Lake Huetes to do some bass fishing. We caught and released each day 100- 125 large mouth bass. At
that same time we had seen at least 300 fisherman a day, with nets working to make a buck. Did the fish we release make a differnce?
They made more money per pound for the bass versus the other crop... No catch and release...
My point here is.......
A year ago after the fire we had at Tripui. I came back down south with a group that would do the July Dorado fishing. Three weeks after the fire, one
of my partners had a heart attack witch left my 84 year old buddie with out a mate. So I made it back in the three week span to piddle thru the burnt
crap...
Anyways... The point.
Fishing was Ok. Fished with Placido. We caught fish. Quite a few. We limited each day...Released all but two. ate'em
At our cleaning staion at the Oasis a gal came in with her catch.... A 5lb hen Dorado.. As it was being cleaned, with her standing there, I said "do
you know what is"? the golden eggs... "Its the fish"... all 1 .25 lbs she put in the pastic bag....
I said:
"That is the FUTURE OF OUR FISHING.... " She stormed away mad at me...... The next day she came up to me and said " thank you so very much. I did
not know."
That may not make an impact on the life of the fish in the Sea of Cortez.... But if you ain't going to eat it.. lettem go..
martin-o
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Hook
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Very valid points, Osprey, but I think a better tact is to get all the businesses in Loreto that will suffer from the loss of sportfishing behind Pam.
She needs to use those financial equivalencies she mentioned in an earlier post and show the monetary infusion that fishermen bring. NO ONE COMES TO
LORETO TO BUY FISH OR SEE THE COMMERCIALS NET. They come to have a realistic chance of catching fish or seeing marinelife, if they don't fish. The
potential bycatch is also an issue.
If the hotel owners and the restaurants owners and the store owners AS WELL AS THE SPORTFISHERS COME OUT IN SUPPORT OF A MODIFIED SEASON FOR THE
COMMERCIALS, it will put all kinds of pressure on the local officials. The amount of people engaged in commercial fishing in Loreto can't be nearly as
large as those supported by the sportfishing community. Quite possibly, some of them aren't even locals.
Hmmm.....I am wondering if we could get the support of the Carnaderos or whether they are too tight with the boats netting the spawners. I suppose
it's likely that some of them are one and the same.
If we need to mount a groundswell in the US of A through fishing websites, it can be done. But we need to be realistic. The commercials will have to
get something in return.
When is the meeting Pam?
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Capt. George
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Nets/traps vs. rod/reel hook/line NO CONTEST
seen it for the last time in Cape Cod MA. Striped Bass, a hook and line species only! Limited tonnage per year commercial (again only hook and line)
limited daily catch numbers. Licenses mandatory...reports from fisherman and fish buyers....
The bass were on a terrible downward slide...their numbers today, after GOOD SCIENTIFIC DATA & MANAGEMENT, are no less then awesome. Almost back
to the sixties!
Hook and line managed fisheries work....everyone gives a little and everyone gains a lot. Win, win..... Capt. George
\"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men\" Plato
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Skipjack Joe
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Wow, a lot of good posts since I last looked at this thread.
| Quote: | Originally posted by Hook
I think a better tact is to get all the businesses in Loreto that will suffer from the loss of sportfishing behind Pam. |
I would go a bit lighter with the economic argument. Yes, you can count the dollars, do the math, and show that one provides more money than the
other. But you are dealing with a way of life that's existed for generations, long before we came along. You don't want to alienate these people by
'proving' to them that their way of life has little future so 'let's get on the bandwagon'. The way to convince your opponent is to understand and
respect his point of view. I believe that there is room for both in the park. I believe that the commercials should be convinced that banning spawning
YT will INCREASE their catch in the long run.
| Quote: | Originally posted by Captn. George
The bass were on a terrible downward slide...their numbers today, after GOOD SCIENTIFIC DATA & MANAGEMENT, are no less then awesome.
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I agree with this statement completely. I believe that PESCA has NO scientific data on it's fish stocks and is managing it's fisheries by compromise
between competitors for these fish (mordida plays a big part). Otherwise, how can you explain a daily fish limit of 5 for baja grouper. Any bimbo can
see how destructive such a law will be to these fish.
| Quote: | Originally posted by Captn. George
Hook and line managed fisheries work....everyone gives a little and everyone gains a lot.
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Kudos to Captn George again. I believe that these pangueros are not netting spawning YT because they prefer to do so, nor that they don't care. I
think that spawning yellowtail may be the only time that these fish are on the surface and available to that form of fishing.
I have stood on the docks at Loreto and watched a panguero unload his yellowtail caught with hook and line at Pulpito. He unloaded I would say between
50 to 100 fish. He had spent 4 or 5 days up there catching this load. The boat ride to Pulpito is about 3 hours I believe. Now compare that to a
netting episode off the east side of Carmen. A 45minute ride is a big savings in gas. The panguero probably caught more fish in half a day than the
hook and line guy did in a week.
So netting these spawners is much more profitable in the short run. You need a very compelling argument to convince such an individual that what he's
doing is wrong. The SCIENTIFIC DATA is just that, I believe. It would show that he (not the sport fisherman) is destroying his own way of life.
[Edited on 3-9-2006 by Skipjack Joe]
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Sharksbaja
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Kudos to Pam
For this well positioned and thought out post. It is a cryin' shame the folks in control of regulations shirk responsibility of managing or otherwise
deciding the fate of species within the Sea of Cortez.
THe pure fact of the matter is that these same law making officials have not the knowledge let alone the expertise necessary to protect from the
collapse of fisheries within their realm and jurisdiction.
Pam, since you are an authority on sportfish landings in the Loreto area I would look to you for numbers based on tallies generated by your business,
particularily if I were a researcher involved in fishery management. Do you know of (any) programs aimed at deriving fish numbers through sportfishing
and commercial sources on a local level.. It may be prudent to enlist University grad-students or other experts who would possibly join the ranks. A
letter of concern stating their position on closures regarding spawning YT. It helps to get important letterheads.
Other species deserve similar protection and provisions should be made concurrently with the overall request(s) for consideration.
IMHO, the weight and leverage used against the netting advocates should be proportional to the amount of attention required to make significant
changes. In other words, if the hurtles are high and stubborness prevails more dramatic interest could be summoned in the way of media or other
coverage.
Of course money usually helps steer Mexican policy faster. Attracting wealthy business alllies could help greatly. As much as I dislike the new
project in Loreto , it would be a good place to seek endorsement of new legislation. Even though the principles of Loreto Bay may not be Mexican
National the fact remains they are a powerful entity in the area. I would think they would whole-heartedly support a plan to restrict or govern
sensitive (and politically correct) issues. Just my three cents.
I think you have a clear mission Pam. Who says they can't learn from others.
The discussion here certainly looks black & white from my vantage point 2 thousand miles away. Strange that those up-close and personal have a
different spin. THe reply to Skipjack underscores serious animosity in which fishing tourists are painted as the bad guys with their concerns.
It is ludicrous that the politicos drive a wedge between the indiginous people fishing for a living and those out for fun.
The notion that Americans profit from caught and transported fish fillets is unbelievable at best. The real issue of netting pregnant or spawning
fish and their ignorant initial response demonstrates their lack of professionalism with sweeping generalizations regarding the legality of the
practice.
The real problem it seems to me is the lack of modern education at the grassroot level. It seems more like a self-education process to me.
Let's face it, the pangueros know the problems and loss of fish. They won't set nets in areas previously denuded. But should they move on to the next
spawning area without thinking hard about the last? Who will steer these folks towards a sustainable resource?
Don't forget about the tuna ranches and their voracious appetite for baitfish. Yellowtail and other tuna species try to seek out the food by
following temperature gradients favorable to sardines and other plentiful baitfish. When this is interrupted by uncontrolled harvests the effects can
be dramatic as witnessed in So Cal duing the 70s & 80s.
Keep yer fingers crossed. The rebound will only happen with education and enforcement.
It's a bad rap targeting the wrong folks. WE all know it is the commercials doing the harm. When does a resource become precious?
Unfortunately most of the time, when it's gone.
DON\'T SQUINT! Give yer eyes a break!
Try holding down [control] key and toggle the [+ and -] keys
Viva Mulege!
Nomads\' Sunsets
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Hook
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Well, Joe.....
...you seem to be implying that my post advocates a total ban on the commercials. I'm realistic enough to know that that's not likely to happen. A
compromise will have to be worked out.
But I still think the economic argument is the most valid. So what if the commercials have been there for generations? So have some of the shop owners
and the other land based businesses. Situations change. One upon a time there was NO bag limit in Mexico. THAT'S the way it was for generations; does
that mean it should continue?
The economic argument will be most persuasive to the land based businesses that depend on tourism; in a lesser sense to the park officials or the
PESCA people. Win the support of the land-based businesses and carry that support to the meeting in some tangible way, assuming it is a public
meeting. Torches and pitchforks, maybe????? How about fishing poles with peso notes taped to the eyes?  If it's a private meeting, then Pam could show up with a resolution signed by any and all who support a
"sportfishing-friendly" option.
Finally, you mention use of SCIENTIFIC DATA as a defense for the sportfishers. What scientific data? None really exists. All we can do is make the
deductive argument that mass killing of ANY fish during the spawn will result in a greater loss of fish than if a limited number are taken.
If there is a precedent for a spawning ban in some other fishery in Mexico, it could be valuable. Maybe the totuaba? If there is scientific evidence
that they were decimated while in the shallows during their spawn (I don't know if that's the case), it might be the kind of reasoning that park
officials and PESCA understand.
Capt. George's striper analogy COULD be a possible argument. A rather nomadic type of fish that strict hook and line management proved to be very
successful.
Ultimately, it's ALL about economics, though. I just hope it isn't all about the mordida kind of economics.
Let's keep the discourse going, Joe. Good thoughts all around and the fisheries will be the winners.
It should be noted that this decision has the potential to affect yellowtail fishing from Gonzaga to Cerralvo. Certainly a large percentage of YT are
highly migratory. This is a cause that affects the fishermen at San Lucas Cove, at Bahia de Los Angeles and at Mulege.
[Edited on 3-9-2006 by Hook]
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Skipjack Joe
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Hook
Ultimately, it's ALL about economics, though. |
I couldn't disagree more with this statement, Hook.
If it was all about economics then we would all choose the highest paying career when considering a profession. Actually people like that suffer from
having the lowest level of job satisfaction (and self esteem). A doctor's primary goal would be his salary and not his patient's welfare. As you know
job satisfaction has very little to do with economics in the real world. And commercial fishing is no different. These people like their livelihood
and I, for one, respect them for it. They have a right to defend their form of livelihood and not have it go to someone who can bring in more cash
with it. I dare say that Pam didn't choose her profession for economic reasons either. So you end up doing what you like and then having to defend
your choice with arguments about it's economic benefits.
Anyway, people need to eat fish so there will always be demand for seafood and a financial reward for those providing it. Sportfishing and commercial
fishing are not mutually exclusive and I have never understood this polarity that exists between these groups. It's certainly counterproductive.
As far as the emphasis on hard census data of fish stocks. It's true I don't have it. It's true that an assumption is being made that removal of
spawners would be harmful to the fishery. It's a fair assumption, I think. Although other factors should be considered. The fecundity of females
varies from species to species. Also, life expentancy ... and the age at which a fish reaches maturity also play a big part in determining a take
quota. Given all of these factors it may be possible that netting a certain amount of spawners is quite sustainable. I don't know. And I suspect that
none of the participants in these management meetings do either.
Last summer I fished the sockeye runs on the Kenai River. All of those fish are spawners. The entire sportfishery is based upon catching gravid
females. And yet it works. It works because they've got accurate fish counts and models predicting how much fishing pressure that fishery can sustain.
When the runs drop and the numbers aren't right they immediately change the regs on the river. It's a finely tuned system. I bring it up because it's
an example of a fishery that permits the sort of fishing I suggested should be banned in the park.
Another consideration: These fish have planktonic juveniles. The eggs are released in the sea and carried by currents. That means that the laws being
implemented at Santa Rosalia is affecting the fish stocks in Loreto and vice versa. The protection being provided in the Loreto's marine park may
actually bring very little benefit to the yellowtail in the park. The restrictions on cabrilla and pargo are probably way more beneficial to fish
stocks.
Actually I agree with most of your arguments, Hook. I just decided to comment on the one I didn't. That's all. It's been a slow day at work ... 
[Edited on 3-10-2006 by Skipjack Joe]
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Don Alley
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A few thoughts...
The problems go far beyond netting egg-baring yellowtail. Many species are far scarcer than the yellowtail, along the shore and at the islands.
Sport fishing is not the problem: I don't entirely agree. While I am not big on fully protected areas, they are needed for big grouper and sea bass.
Those slow growing species can suffer from sportfishing. A limit of one fish is probably too high. And I wonder, when I see fleets of sportfishers, if
the harvest is all that benign to fish populations.
But, the impact of sportfishing is far overstated by the authorities, according to Pam. Americans selling their catch? I don't think that happens and
I don't think it's legal. But I would not object to bargaining for less commercial catch with concessions of a reduced sport catch, through lower bag
or size limits. I never understood the need to pack home coolers packed with frozen fillets.
Baseline data: A biologist from La Paz stated at a recent local meeting that there is no fisheries data.
Five year plans: The management plan, according to a park official, is subject to revision only every five years. And such a revision is needed before
changing regulations. That can make it difficult to lobby for change; we get one shot and then they can blow us off for five years.
I believe the government authorization for the marine park did not include a budget of government funds. I think park employees must raise their own
expenses-including salaries-from donations and fees. So Pam's idea to take the issues to donors may be very powerful.
It's been mentioned here that commercial fishing has been a "way of life" for a long time. Maybe...but Loreto sportfishing has a long history, going
back to the Flying Sportsman's lodge, a time that I believe predates modern monofilament gillnets. We should also consider that Loreto is rapidly
growing in population, and we could see (or maybe already have seen) commercial effort by newcomers in addition to a traditional local fishery. There
should be protection against increased numbers of commercial fishermen, not a program of government subsidies to create new entries.
Economics: The timing could be better. Loreto is booming. Lots of work, new jobs, new construction, new cars on the streets. Restaurants are busy, and
we even sold out ALL the hotel rooms a week ago. The airport's a zoo but lately there have been few rod tubes seen there. Baja is moving beyond the
sportfishing economy to one based on real estate, golf, clubs, and bs marketing. I've seen rumors on the net that even one or two of the famous East
Cape fishing resorts have sold and will become new resorts with little, if any emphasis on fishing.
What would I like to see out of this?
Annual reviews of regulations
Quality areas to fish inshore that are net free, year around
A cap on entries into commercial fishing in the park. Existing permit holders only, unless they agee to sell their permit on the open market, possibly
a source of retirement income? And maybe the government, or a citizen's group, could buy out licenses and retire them?
Improved effort at basic biology...making population estimates, and estimating and recording catch rates. And quit playing with fads like mpa's.
Streamlined enforcement
Annual, monthly or weekly park permits (the wristbands) would be beneficial.
well, enough from me for now....
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Osprey
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I'm not an ex Marine but the slogan "adapt and improvise" is a good one and might fit right here. Quietly open a School For Burglars. Offer cut rate
tuitions for Mexican net fishermen. Show them the LB plan for 6,000 new, ritzy gringo homes full of valuable baubles and playthings. The fishery
will be saved at a small per-insured cost to the insurance companies.
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Bob and jane
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Good post, Don.
I'm glad you pointed out that the netting is actually a relatively new phenomena. Our captain grew up in Loreto and when he was young very little
netting was being done. Because the highway hadn't been built, there was no economical way to market large numbers of fish. Only shark were caught
in nets, and the nets were designed to just catch the largest fish and not damage the younger ones. The sharks were dried and shipped to La Paz.
Many of those out there netting fish--with tighter and tighter meshed nets, are fairly recent arrivals. Yes, they are trying to scrape out a living,
but how they do it is not a "local tradition." Local tradition is walking down to the beach and catching a yellowtail for dinner.
I like the idea of capping the number of people allowed to put nets out and working to eventually cut them out all together--at least during spawning
seasons.
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Sharksbaja
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Canadians or ?
| Quote: |
Everywhere there are semi-amorphous blobs of white flesh with plastic yellow wristbands ambling all over town.
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haha, kidding!... really though, are those the potential financiers of the Loreto Bay project?
Don, I can envision the town and in particular the downtown and malecon areas with a ethnic make-over. To me, not a pretty sight. I would much
prefer hangin' out in some outta the way ciudadocito (sp?)
The Disneyland crowd is boring. THats' what kills me. Some of them want exactly
that. And if you provide them with people movers and cyber crap enough then they will come. Just make life easy for em. Why else would they pay to use
a beach in Mexico. What does that remind you of?
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The condition and future use of the waters and their inhabitants will become issue when and only when the authorities and involved policy, law and
regulation-making parties coalecse common goals with a clear future vision that translates into pesos.
Some would argue the Mexican govt has not the means and tools. I would disagree.
The system now appears as evolving at a slower pace compared to it's relative destruction. Making adjustments to fisheries on a 5 yr timeline is simply unfathomable in CA. and OR. WE have "real-time" closures and extensions
all the time here where we live.
The good news:
It is at least on the table. How it is delivered(the spawn issue) is paramount with it being a one-shot deal. The information presented being succint
and forthright & being underwritten by authorities and people of notoriety on the subject with some good data may be virtuous in the concideration
and enactment of a new regulation. The whole system of monitoring and gathering numbers plus data from prior years is a world within itself. It takes
many researchers thousands of hours and millions of dollars to track a specie and put it on paper(or maybe a computer). The demographics can be
enormous not to mention the hundred of variables. This science of forcasting natures plethora of animals is so complex that the accuracy can vary
widely. Overall IMHO I would jecture to say that the forcasters(here) have been pretty close as of late. At least in some fisheries.THe ebb and flow
of fish populations is still a mystery much of the time.
If large reproductive fish are grouping, to me it would mean that spawning is taking place. It should be outright illegal to take them, period. Same
with a ten foot Marlin eoc.
DON\'T SQUINT! Give yer eyes a break!
Try holding down [control] key and toggle the [+ and -] keys
Viva Mulege!
Nomads\' Sunsets
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Don Alley
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Sharksbaja
If large reproductive fish are grouping, to me it would mean that spawning is taking place. It should be outright illegal to take them, period. Same
with a ten foot Marlin eoc. |
True. But at the same time, we wouldn't want to get cornered into a discussion that is limited to that single issue. IMO, populations of many other
inshore gamefish are in poor shape. I also think Loreto is lacking, compared to many other areas, in good areas to fish from shore. One of the most
popular such places with local folks is Puerto Escondido, but even that is heavily gillnetted. Can't the gillnetters and the park leave anything for
sportfishermen AND hook and line fishing local people? Just another problem with the 5 year timeline: you cannot give fair representation to all the
issues in a single rulemaking session.
I realize thet the park personel are young, out of town folks with limited budgets and limited authority. Current regulations are "concensus"
regulations, and as a result seem gerrymandered around the best opportunities to conduct high-impact netting. Hopefully if a constituency of
sportfishing interests shows up the park folks may feel somewhat emboldened and more agressively pursue a more balanced management plan...but it
remains to be seen if either the netters will come to terms, or, if not, if they can be overridden.
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Skipjack Joe
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Lessons from los norteamericanos
I thought about this thread last night while reading this LA Times piece on the fishery at Morro Bay.
LA Times article on Morro Bay.
The fishery in California during the next 50 years I am sure will be greatly different than the last 50. Baja has the benefit of looking at our
fishery with 20/20 hindsight. It's going through a growth period somewhat similar to ours. It can do things right if it chooses.
| Quote: | Originally posted by Sharksbaja
Making adjustments to fisheries on a 5 yr timeline is simply unfathomable in CA. and OR. WE have "real-time" closures and extensions all the time here
where we live.
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Good point Sharksbaja. A 5 year management plan for Loreto's marine park is too slow. The area is growing too fast.
[Edited on 3-12-2006 by Skipjack Joe]
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Sharksbaja
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That's right Joe
The learning curve has steepened. As Mexico struggles to implement and enforce existing laws here comes the avalanche of new problems and the fear of
dealing with them. It takes thousands of hours to research and compile pertinent data on damn near anything. In fact most the time, too much info
emerges and skews the whole study. Happens here regularly.
I think Mexico takes less info and translates that into law somewhat differently than the U.S. I believe they are on a good track but the lack of
enforcement, education and a clear mission on a local level is more than obvious and major discprepancies can occur.
A presentation of the spawning problem alone must clearly offer acceptable alternatives and/or assistance in making the transition into other
fisheries etc. Gill-nettting is a huge issue with huge ramifications.
Don is spot-on about the necessity to broaden the picture to include other important fish and their potentially compromised life-cycles. I also feel
the blame blame game solves the problem of actually tackling some of the complex probs. Small town politics prevail in coastal Baja. That is a huge
hurtle for the local enforcement who know the people affected by changes on a first name basis.
DON\'T SQUINT! Give yer eyes a break!
Try holding down [control] key and toggle the [+ and -] keys
Viva Mulege!
Nomads\' Sunsets
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flyfishinPam
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Location: Loreto, BCS
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Mood: gone fishin'
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I just added a detailed list of organizations that fund the park, have a look here:
http://bajabigfish.com/marinepark.html
I ain't lettin this one get away~
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Don Alley
Super Nomad
Posts: 1997
Registered: 12-4-2003
Location: Loreto
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| Quote: | Originally posted by flyfishinPam
I just added a detailed list of organizations that fund the park, have a look here:
http://bajabigfish.com/marinepark.html
I ain't lettin this one get away~ |
Interesting stuff in that list, including websites with overviews.
Some of the sites are interesting...informatve sites with all kinds of info on the possible destruction caused by tourists, and sportfishermen,
including those participating in Loreto's winter tuna fishery and summer swordfish fishery! God save us from ignorant busybodies.
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flyfishinPam
Super Nomad
Posts: 1727
Registered: 8-20-2003
Location: Loreto, BCS
Member Is Offline
Mood: gone fishin'
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Yeah very interesting indeed
| Quote: | Originally posted by Don Alley
| Quote: | Originally posted by flyfishinPam
I just added a detailed list of organizations that fund the park, have a look here:
http://bajabigfish.com/marinepark.html
I ain't lettin this one get away~ |
Interesting stuff in that list, including websites with overviews.
Some of the sites are interesting...informatve sites with all kinds of info on the possible destruction caused by tourists, and sportfishermen,
including those participating in Loreto's winter tuna fishery and summer swordfish fishery! God save us from ignorant busybodies. |
Once Sharkey returns to the US and can post again he can add what the head of PROFEPA told him. Now this is from Sharkey as he told me that
sportfishermen have taken more tonalados of Yellowtail than all the commercials combined! Now THAT'S a load of crap as there is no valid data to back
that up...
if there were valid data then my captains would have been checked daily on their catches and all that data would be recorded and made public thanks to
the transparancy laws. Well none of that has ever happened so where does this claim come from I wonder?
So you gotta come on down now Don, as the Tuna and Swordfish bite is WFO now... what a joke!
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