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Nikon
Nomad
Posts: 143
Registered: 12-11-2003
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You have my pledge to stay out of any caves in Baja. For someone who has an irrational phobia of scientists, collaborating with PROFEPA and INAH seems
a bit contradictory, doesn't it?
Picklehead.
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Ski Baja
Senior Nomad
Posts: 652
Registered: 8-19-2003
Location: Rosarito Beach
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You are probably right.
I tried to stay off the topic of politics by staying in the general discussion section but failed, I got caught up in it like I said I wouldn't.
As far as my feelings go, I have not just stated crap but how to fix certain things that are possible. Like open mindedness. I have not been simply
trying to make fun of you or hurt feelings but point out some truths in order to try and make more human beings. There seem to be fewer and fewer.
It's my getting a feeling for what the majority of the population of the world thinks that drives my political feelings.. Which is why as a
disappointed american I would like to see it change up there.
If the majority of you want to continue to ignore what is happening right under your noses, there is nothing I can say to change anyones minds. I
will try again to stay off the subject of politics as I should. It is probably having an effect on the donations the children get down south which is
one of the things that truly matter to me.
As far as irrational phobias go regarding scientists, hahahahahaha. I have talked to many about this exact same thing on both sides of the border
and the majority including INAH and PROFEPA agree with me. Until all areas are documented on film without disturbing relics, and all expeditions are
accompanied by local guides, foreigners shouldn't have access to these areas. Especially when they are publishing the GPS coordinates on the internet.
This is Mexicos history and the history, tradition, and relatives of the humans that have lived here for hundreds and thousands of years in some
cases.
By a better understanding of this, many people are coming to their senses. Education and action prior to trying to repair what has already been done
is a pretty good idea. It isn't to late here.
As far as you wanting me to leave this board because I think differently than you, if that's what the majority of you want, hasta la vista, if not,
I guess yer just stuck with my political ramblings when I forget I am not supposed to have an opinion.
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pappy
Senior Nomad
Posts: 679
Registered: 12-10-2003
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malcontents here, fortune seekers there.In each case the indigenous are not in leadership roles....far from it.
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Ski Baja
Senior Nomad
Posts: 652
Registered: 8-19-2003
Location: Rosarito Beach
Member Is Offline
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Happy Thanksgiving
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Nikon
Nomad
Posts: 143
Registered: 12-11-2003
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Ski Baja
It's my getting a feeling for what the majority of the population of the world thinks that drives my political feelings.. Which is why as a
disappointed american I would like to see it change up there.
If the majority of you want to continue to ignore what is happening right under your noses, there is nothing I can say to change anyones minds.
A fair bit of guesswork would be necessary to understand what you're talking about when you claim to have a sense for the feeling of the majority of
the world. I'll go first; anger at the heavyhandedness for the present administration having two wars in less than two years, using bombers to
extinguish civilian lives indiscriminately with combatants? We've heard a lot about those reactions, whether they comprise the majority, I'd doubt,
but whatever, that horror is indeed justified. There are a lot of Americans filled with shame, and many hope it will translate into changes at
election time, no predictions here; Democrats are too unreliable for exercising voting rights for that.
You'll have a difficult time selling the idea that the desmadre that is Mexico is preferable, you may find it better than whatever you had
going on up north, but the standards by which living conditions are judged don't bear it out. Unless instances of wholesale bus robberies,
victimization of motorists by police, and rampant corruption by officials qualify as the "good life". Aside from cheap living conditions, resultant
from a lack of workers' benefits, affording cheap labor, (how much cheaper it would be if Mexico were not a net importer of goods, including food!) no
one but American retirees have ever found reason to live in Mexico in any significant numbers, other types do, to be sure, but relatively few in
number.
In summary, we are a country of 290 million people, and yes they are all humans. Plenty of social problems and other serious issues that need to be
addressed, but I don't see the open debate in Mexico on its issues that is found here, and I don't remember any politicians or military ordering the
massacre of hundreds of protesters in a square as in Tlatelolco. Kent State was the result of scared, nervous soldiers, and was openly investigated in
its aftermath. There is to this date no accurate number of Mexican students murdered by the military. The peasants in Chiapas can thank the
international press for not receiving like treatment.
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 65228
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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GPS & INAH
JR, this is such a tender issue with you, let me remind you that my Baja Missions web site http://davidksbaja.com/bajamissions was initially made to display (for everyone's benefit) the many wonderful photographs of Baja's missions and
visitas taken by retired science teacher, Jack Swords WITH INAH authority.
Jack also LIVES IN MEXICO half the year. Jack contributes to this board, as well. Jimmy Smith has taken Jack and Baja mission book author Ed Vernon to
additional historic sites.
Any that are at risk, will not have GPS published with their photos. Jack found one of the sites for Mision Santiago, he sent me the photo (which I
added to my web site), but suggested the GPS remain unpublished... fine by me.
I have added a few GPS to missions Jack hasn't been to, yet with a GPS... None were 'fragile' or secret locations that a GPS would bring new
'destructive' vistors to.
Mexico thrives on 'tourism'... the Baja missions are a draw. Their destruction in the past has been due to weathering & age, locals using building
material from them (after they were abandoned), and treasure seekers thinking the padres actually had any time to gather gold and pearls!
Anyway, GPS for all the missions is already published in Ed Vernon's book 'Las Misiones Antiguas', you may have met Ed at Keri's book signing party.
Also, a new book is being published, called 'Saints and Demons in a Desert Wilderness' by Dave Werschkul. It also has GPS. What I am getting at is
there is no secret were the missions are. GPS only helps one find them sooner, thus saving time, gas, trespassing, etc.
You have every right to not want Americans (or Mexicans) from visiting historic sites. But, they did find them before GPS.
I will agree to continue to not publish any fragile sites' GPS, as I have already. I discussed three examples (in my Christmas gift thread) where
others have told me or shown me a site and to not publish, and I have always complied.
{Also, it is likely that an annon. poster may start harassing me again, as he did last night until the moderator closed the thread. So, let me be
clear: I have NEVER posted any GPS if asked not to. All GPS in my web pages are from my travels, unless stated by me as otherwise (about 4).
Every GPS in my list is at a place I photographed and posted or passed through to a photographed site, as proof I was there}
[Edited on 12-24-2003 by David K]
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Ski Baja
Senior Nomad
Posts: 652
Registered: 8-19-2003
Location: Rosarito Beach
Member Is Offline
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Thank you
Now I can rest assured I won't be running into you down here, what are you doing on a "Baja" board if you hate it so much here?
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Ski Baja
Senior Nomad
Posts: 652
Registered: 8-19-2003
Location: Rosarito Beach
Member Is Offline
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GPS sites
David, that last post was for Nikon, not you.
But, that is wonderful you are giving all the GPS coordinates away to "prove you were there". What exactly do you do when you are there besides
prove you were ?
And, if you think I haven't read the posts that are thanking you so they can now get to these places, you are wrong. You are attracting more tourism
to places that haven't even been fully examined by the people that have the rights to them. The Mexicans.
And because thus far they haven't been able to afford thorough evaluation of their historic sites, (not just missions) americans should be able to
come in and destroy them by whatever means be it promoting tourism to that place or scientific expeditions coming in to dig them up.
I don't think so my friend. What the heck do you have to "prove you were there in the first place for. Try just taking pictures. Works for me and
if anybody doesn't believe me, who gives a chicharrone?Sp. hahahaha
I forgot the rest of your comments and dinner is ready. I'll continue this later.
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msawin
Nomad
Posts: 373
Registered: 8-29-2003
Location: Grass Valley,Ca / Tripui
Member Is Offline
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THE GREAT EXPANSE
Wow Ski.. I guess all that have read the thread can tell where you are coming from....I have allways wondred where that thumbnail photo of you skiing
was taken from. have a great x-mas
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Anonymous
Unregistered
Posts: N/A
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Nice pics Ski! Looks like you had one heck of a great adventure. I bet you can't wait to head back down.
[Edited on 12-24-2003 by Q87]
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Dave
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6005
Registered: 11-5-2002
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Ski Baja
And, if you think I haven't read the posts that are thanking you so they can now get to these places, you are wrong. You are attracting more tourism
to places that haven't even been fully examined by the people that have the rights to them. The Mexicans.
And because thus far they haven't been able to afford thorough evaluation of their historic sites, (not just missions) americans should be able to
come in and destroy them by whatever means be it promoting tourism to that place or scientific expeditions coming in to dig them up.
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Sorry JR, I don't want to sound elitist but I haven't noticed the Mexican Government or any archeological entity in Mexico give more than lip service
to preserving or investigating their archeological heritage, unless of course it would mean the generation of tourist dollars. It's my impression that
the average Mexican would just as soon pave over a sensitive site for a garage as protect it. The same goes for preserving their ecology.
Fact is there is plenty of discrimination to go around when it comes to the Indian peoples of Mexico.
Once again, this is a casual observation. Feel free to correct my assumptions.
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Ski Baja
Senior Nomad
Posts: 652
Registered: 8-19-2003
Location: Rosarito Beach
Member Is Offline
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Preserving
And, speaking of preserving, I just finished dinner of ham with Guayaba Jelly and Plum Chili sauce. Both were from the mountains, Plum from Canadians
trying to be with Mexicans rather than the tourist groups, the Guayaba from the mountains down here. What this means is that none of you can put me in
a bad mood now. I am supercharged from super flavors! Another reason it shouldn't change down here. What would all of you pay to be completely
healthy like these folks are.
Dave, this is very true about their lack of "funds" to get anything done. This is still the case but improving gradually. It is all about education
and realizing what they have and leaving it the way it is.
Amazingly, I am the first lamp to go to many of these places and even more amazing is neither have the locals in some areas. And that means, neither
has any of the environmental agencies.
Which is why I am trying to preserve what is there before it turns into every tourist in the world following certain parties GPS coordinates to get
there. And, by the education I am trying to give these people prior to these areas turning into Yellowstone or most of the other national parks,
perhaps there will be some trash cleanup, security and a plan in effect prior to everything disappearing, and the sites being documented as found and
on film. For a museum and everyones enjoyment rather than to make myself look cool or just a few people getting rich. Which is what usually happens
and everything disappears.
That is why I am working on it now. I have seen so many areas that are worth preserving for "tourism" if nothing else. And there can be a lot of $$
in tourism if you have something unique which they do. You have to be fairly rugged to deal with most of these areas but there is a market in tourism
for that as well.
Nevertheless, the wheels are in motion and I have seen how fast wheels turn down here. hahahahahaha. Llanteras everywhere!
This is Mexican territory, not american. Yet! Education, $$ and ayuda is what's necessary. And I am making every effort to make that happen for
these people. They are the deserving ones. Not greedy foreigners.
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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AAAAwwwwhhh. Burp. A LLeno estomago makes a happy man. Cheers!
When you gonna post all those photos sos we can see them, or are you gonna keep teasing us?
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 65228
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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JR, I really have a difficult time understanding your posts.
In one, you are asking me when are we going back to Dave's for another great pastrami, and in another you insult me for being the Baja travel writer
that I am and have been since I was 15 (1973). Instead of writing just for magazines and newsletters, I am writing in a Baja Internet message board.
That's a pretty limited audiance, but it is the prime target (Baja travelers).
Why is your Rosarito travel guide and your posted photos okay but my travel stories and photos not? Are your trip reports and photos trying to prove
you really saw those bones or those ranch people? No, I think you are doing the same thing as I... SHARING.
I would never say you were lying or stealing. In one post (that was removed) I was called a child molestor, nice, huh? The host here knows me, and is
my friend. My guilt is limited to my hyper enthusiasm for Baja. Bernie Swaim understands me and wrote a chaper about me in his new book, with a
cartoon of me, no less.
People come to this board for Baja stories and information. I think with alomost 40 years of Baja travel experience, I QUALIFY to provide some.
My GPS list is data that I collected and felt like sharing (for free) to my fellow Baja travelers. It is not to "prove" I was anywhere. Even though
you or someone kept claiming they were mostly taken from others. If you don't
like what I write or share, then don't read my stuff. Soon all cars will have a GPS built in.. get used to it. All directions will be by GPS instead
of milages...
Have you lambasted Ed Vernon yet for actually writing a book with every mission's GPS in it... for shame!
Have I chastised you for the fees you are asking for or the frequent mentioning of the Baja search and rescue? No, I offered to help you with it (in
an email). It was funny how I have been accused of 'self promoting' when I don't sell my Baja knowledge or have a Baja business... Has anyone accused
you of the same... specially since you do have a Baja business? Perhaps like the president, I am just an easy target for such childish comments or
actions.
Friendships mean a lot to me and I never would call my friend any of the things that I read on this board today or yesterday.
In fact, if I saw the kind of posts (that were thrown at me), thrown at you... I would have given my mind to the anonymous coward. You were on last
night... you said nothing.
I am really confused by this... If I am reading your posts wrong or you didn't mean any harm, I am listening...
As for what Baja is to me... Not beer drinking at Gypsy's or camping at Gecko... It's the hike on the El Camino Real with just my son. It's camping in
the dunes far from civilization with my kids. It's walking along the Las Flores railroad line with just my daughter... That's what Baja is to me.
Being able to occaisionally bond with my friends who feel the same about Baja, is a great thing too, but we all know what it is that kept us returning
to the magic peninsula, and camping in noisy RV parks isn't it... Merry Christmas
[Edited on 12-24-2003 by David K]
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Ski Baja
Senior Nomad
Posts: 652
Registered: 8-19-2003
Location: Rosarito Beach
Member Is Offline
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Re reading
Geez, Im just getting it by the club tonight. David, I don't recall calling you names and have in fact stuck up for you at times. Not sure what was
going on last night but didn't notice anywhere I should have stuck up for you unless it was not taking my posts off as you asked.
On the other hand, I am dead against foreigners posting GPS Coordinates to other countries historical sites. No matter what's been done before or by
whom. If it wasn't from the people that live here and the credit and money given to them, it shouldn't have been done.
And most people agree with that. As far as your writing books go, I did mention something about the La Paz Museum carrying quite a collection. Done
by people that grew up with it as their history, not some $ making endeavor that they really don't know a heck of a lot about.
My books started because I got tired of answering the same questions day after day and it certainly wasn't disclosing anything besides what there is
to do in Rosarito.
I have ignored what the other board has said about you guys as well as ignoring what you have said about them.
As of tonight, I see what they are talking about with the chicken coop group. Oh wait, I think it was me that said that. And obviously I was right.
By the way, Carols son is coming down tomorrow night but if you and the kids want to come down in the daytime to not discuss this BS, I will be
here.
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Ski Baja
Senior Nomad
Posts: 652
Registered: 8-19-2003
Location: Rosarito Beach
Member Is Offline
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Don't put words in my mouth
"Why is your Rosarito travel guide and your posted photos okay but my travel stories and photos not?" Are your trip reports and photos trying to prove
you really saw those bones or those ranch people? No, I think you are doing the same thing as I... SHARING.
I have never complained once about anything but posting GPS coordinates.
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Ski Baja
Senior Nomad
Posts: 652
Registered: 8-19-2003
Location: Rosarito Beach
Member Is Offline
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I see who is lying here now.
"Even though you or someone kept claiming they were mostly taken from others."
trying to embellish a little David like yer bro Mike to make yourselves look good in front of your sheep?
That is a pretty low accusation and I could care less where you get them whether you have been there or not. I just don't think they should be
published by foreigners. I think I have made my point perfectly clear on that.
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Ski Baja
Senior Nomad
Posts: 652
Registered: 8-19-2003
Location: Rosarito Beach
Member Is Offline
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O fishy O Nadas
Guess the rest of what I have to say about that one girlz. And Merry Christmas.
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 65228
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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GPS is just a new way to give directions to a place JR. Before, we used milages... like the mission is 14.5 miles from Rancho No Tengo... etc.
GPS is not evil... people who damage historic sites are not Americans with GPS.
The historic onyx school house of El Marmol was not half demolished by Americans either. But a couple Americans (Tim and DK) with web sites sure
called attention to it... and guess what, there's a fence around it now... hmmm.
Mexicans, Egyptians, Peruvians, whatever generaly do not/ did not have a great interest in discovering, documenting, and presving historic sites as
much as do the British and their cousins, the Americans.
The same is true in Baja. The wonderful (to us) historic sites in Baja were slowly disappearing. Plowed over for crops, demolished for building
materials, allowed to melt in the rain, do to desecularization policies. If it weren't (primarily) for American authors, and American tourists wanting
to see them... very few of the abandoned missions would be known or visible today.
Because of the heightened interest and value to lure tourist dollars, restoraion on some missions has been started.
We are not ugly for having an interst in Baja history... or California history. Merry Christmas to you.
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Anonymous
Unregistered
Posts: N/A
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Nice pics Ski! Looks like you had one heck of a great adventure. I bet you can't wait to head back down.
David K, I feel sorry for you. Honestly, your every trip has to be documented and laid out on every message board that welcomes you. Do you believe
that Jimmy Smith, Jack Swords, or any of the other Baja People whom you are so fond of name dropping, ever had a compulsion to do similar, or was it
only after years of many and varied experiences that they published what they had found. Your constant self promotion has become grating. You for the
most part are preaching to the choir. Your efforts would be better spent answering questions on the various Qand A boards. Perhaps you could even
establish a program where you go around and do a presentation at schools in your area. To rehash the same things over and over on these message boards
is condesending to all the regular readers, of which it is obvious most here are. You make yourself a target, and degredate yourself in the process.
ODB
Here's the rest of what was deleted by the moderators. What is so offensive? Oh it is critical of the self proclaimed kingofbaja. David K.
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