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flyfishinPam
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Lencho, don't know for sure but she translated her own presentation and her english was very good. does that help?
Jerry, depends on which acids are being used. If the solution were as simple as that they would already have the problem solved, but I believe the
biggest concern is the salt slurry waste being of a higher denisty than the seawater it would be dispensed into and settling onto the ocean floor.
Once there it will kill everything it settles on. The SOC does not have the same circulation patterns as the Pacific Ocean to disperse this and this
is why it would be detremental.
Don, how did you find out about this meeting? I only knew about it because I corresponded with Sergio Morales and he e-mailed me on it. I showed up
and was disappointed to see how small the room was and that very few Loretano faces where in there. Not that many would have understood the
presentations, but a distilled version of its content needs to be put out there.
[Edited on 3-17-2007 by flyfishinPam]
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Don Alley
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Pam, Linda Kettinger called us to tell us about the meeting, she's on the GEA board. I don't really know her, but I do contribute to GEA so that gets
me on the list, I guess.
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jerry
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pam as far as i know all acids can be nuetrilized by bases ?? its a balance??
jerry and judi
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flyfishinPam
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Jerry the part that makes an acid an acid is the free hydrogen ion. The stronger the acid the more willing that H+ ion is to be freed from its
negatively charged partner so to speak. The concern is the other portion of the acid (the negatively charged one), like hydrochloric acid becomes
free Cl- and H+ ions when diluted in water. the H+ can be neutralized and the Cl- precipitated out as a salt, but therein lies the problem. the H+
can be neutralized but the other portion, the salt~ waddaya do with it? Now that would be a mild case but who the heck knows what acids they are
using, its proprietary information which I can respect but we need to know the actual contents and concentrations before we can think of a solution to
the "chemicals". So the "chemicals" being left in the brine as a residual part of the process is the explaination as to why the salt brine cannot be
re-used and sold off, but the big problem is that high density of the slurry and that it will not be able to be dispursed into the ocean's waters due
to lack of sufficient currents off our area to not do damage. This is what I suspected in my research and it was confirmed by the desal
presentations.
[Edited on 3-17-2007 by flyfishinPam]
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flyfishinPam
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| Quote: | Originally posted by lencho
| Quote: | Originally posted by flyfishinPam
Lencho, don't know for sure but she translated her own presentation and her english was very good. does that help? |
No, due to my own ignorance. I may have a line into Niparajá, let me see what I can do; so you want the presentation on Geothermal incursion into the
aquifers presented in Loreto... was that this week?
--Larry |
The presentation was on Wednesday and yes I would love a copy of the study or a line on where I can find it. I am going to La Paz next week so maybe
I can go and visit Niparaja too.
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jerry
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HI there, here's where my chemical background may help. The engineer in the meeting mentioned that the chemicals are used to de-scale the system- that
means strong acids. To descale my cappuccino machine I use citric acid which is a mild acid because its coming in contact with the source where I'll
be drinking from (and my caffeine addicted clients too) . In an industiral system strong acids would be used and they would be damn near impossible to
remove. The other chemical that would need to be used would be an agent which would remove or prevent the growth of algae and mollusks on the system.
Those would contaminate any brine wastes. Also the 50% yield of useable product (pure drinkable water) is an estimate. The SOC is much higher in salt
content than say, the Pacific Ocean, so we must understand that the yield will be less than 50%.
Another issue was that water sources would become private once desal becomes the norm and that these private companies will be able to charge what
they want. Everyone in that room had the ability to pay these future water bills but my neighbors in Miramar wouldn't have the means, so how will the
common people be able to keep enough water around for their basic needs?
The woman from Niparaja who did the persentation about the geothermal incrusion (spelline, who cares?) was quite informative, especially when she said
the other study was probably not being released for "political reasons". I have been looking all over Niparaja's website for this information and
can't find it. I also can't find it on GEA's website. I would really, really love to find this study and read it for myself. Also I will see into my
contacts for the heavy metals analyses.
i understand your passion pam and i feel the same but acording to your post its all pure conjecture what acid? if its acid? perhaps its a base ?if
its either witch none knows. it is nutralisable or not?
can anyone tell me the amount of cubic meters of water in the sea of cortez?? tell me what % of increas in saline sulution will the sea of cortez
have if the whole say 50 miles of coast line is developed to the utmost and a desal plant was used to supply all the fresh water??
is the sea of cortez dead in the north where the colorado river used to flow into it?? that a lot morefresh water depleation then a desal plant
will add salt not even counting the mix of effelunt added back into the sulution
jerry and judi
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jerry
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n my opinion shear volume of evaporation that goes on every day would effect the salt content in the oceans a million times more then a desal plant
ever could
just the differences from one year to the next drout to flash floods would have a lot more effect
most water is used and then goes to ground water or is evaporated anyway its a circle
whats happening in GN whos replacing the salt thats being taken out of the sea there??perhaps a desal plant might really be needed to creat a
balance??
i think not. No more then a desal plant will change the sea in another area
jerry and judi
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backninedan
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Jerry, you are joking, right?
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jerry
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im not joking at all backninedan what do you thinks is so funny?? other then my spelling
jerry and judi
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ncampion
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Jerry actually has a good point although evaporation takes place more or less evenly over the entire surface of the sea. I have not seen any actual
engineering calculations on what effect the increased salt water would do when diluted into the SOC despite relativitely light curent flow. I would
expect that the out flow pipe would be located way off shore and the effluent would get diluted rapidly. Need to see some real scientific and
engineering studies on this. In the Middle East they desal nearly all their water and dump it back into the Red Sea and Persia Gulf which are both
quite constricted. I bet the water flow in the SOC is better than either of those bodies of water.
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djh
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| Quote: | Originally posted by ncampion
Jerry actually has a good point although evaporation takes place more or less evenly over the entire surface of the sea. I have not seen any
actual engineering calculations on what effect the increased salt water would do when diluted into the SOC despite relativitely light curent flow.
I would expect that the out flow pipe would be located way off shore and the effluent would get diluted rapidly. Need to see some real
scientific and engineering studies on this. In the Middle East they desal nearly all their water and dump it back into the Red Sea and Persia Gulf
which are both quite constricted. I bet the water flow in the SOC is better than either of those bodies of water. |
I've tried to only read (and not post) on this thread... but ~
ncampion ~ Have you looked? There is a significant body of research already available ~ including the resulting unintended consequences.
Also, "the out flow pipe would be located way off shore and the effluent would get diluted rapidly" but that outfall WILL have an
impact on the area it is discharged into ~ including the flora and fauna in that area.
This reminds me of the old philosophy of "well... let's just dump it into the lake / river / ocean" (out of sight out of mind). Some of the crap
that I have found diving, in past years, and the devestation that it has caused . . well it just honestly amazes me that you'd suggest that "the out
flow pipe would be located way off shore and the effluent would get diluted rapidly."
Desal ~ like many things COULD be done well and offer some answers ~ or it could be done on the cheap - a real duct tape job.... and engineers have
bunged up as many things as the rest of us.... it often depends on who they're working for....
I'd like to know exactly how much of our oceans have already been laid bare by waste, effluent, chemicals, petroleum, and nuclear testing and
radiation, and other human caused destruction....
Its all just stuff and some numbers.
A day spent sailing isn\'t deducted from one\'s life.
Peace, Love, and Music
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Pescador
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I will have to do some more research on this idea when I get back to Colorado in a week or so, but I just finished the higher level training of Water
Operator Certification and the problem is not a simple process like evaporation. When sea water is pushed through a membrane which is small enough to
pull out the salt and other chemicals, this process sort of works and usually has to have some addition of chemicals prior to filtration. That
normally means the addition of several chemicals. First is usually a polymer of some sort which acts as a gathering agent which makes the molecules
thicker or glues them together, in a manner of speaking. Then the problem of fouling is generally addressed by the addition of some type of acid,
usually citric but this depends on the makeup of the water. The Sea of Cortez is already showing a higher salinity than the Pacific side and this may
in part be caused by the lack of freshwater intrusion which used to happen from the Colorado River. Obviously, the problem with increased salinity
and other chemical pollution will be a problem but the scope of the problem will be directly related to how much brine, of any makeup, is added.
Pam really touched on the crux of the problem from a socialogical standpoint, in that the influx of relatively wealthy investors (who promised all
those jobs for the locals) will probably be ok with the higher cost of water, but the poor guy who just wanted to feed his family, who had a house and
water before and sometimes a job, now has a regular job at Loreto Bay but can't really afford the water that he used to have.
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jerry
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if the so called wealth people need the locals to live thier life style then they will be paying them enoff so they can afford water too or the locals
simply wont be there to pamper them
everyone has to have water
by the guesses i have seen the local water will be gone in another 5-20 years anyway then whats is everyone going to do??
expensive water is better then none
jerry and judi
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Crusoe
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Jerry......Can you please verify your statement and information of " existing water will be gone in 5 to 20 years." Is this just more of the old
rumor"talk"......or do you have any scientific substsantied published documents that can support your claim? Thank you so much. ++C++
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Don Alley
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Crusoe
Jerry......Can you please verify your statement and information of " existing water will be gone in 5 to 20 years." Is this just more of the old
rumor"talk"......or do you have any scientific substsantied published documents that can support your claim? Thank you so much. ++C++
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Here is a link to the Hydrology Report made by professors from the University of Arizona, part of the Futuros Alternativos para la Región de Loreto
reports:
http://www.futurosalternativosloreto.org/hydrology/index.htm
From that report:
| Quote: | Summary
Saline intrusion into the San Juan aquifer is already occurring at current population and pumping levels and can be expected to reach the municipal
wells by 2025 or earlier. However, saline intrusion could be significantly delayed with infrastructure improvements to the existing water delivery
system. Proposed retention basins in the arroyos can improve surface water supply to local farmers/ranchers, but will not increase recharge to the
underlying aquifer in a measurable manner. Consequently, any future development in the region must find and develop an alternative water source for
that development and the associated growth in supporting population.
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I talked to the head professor myself, and he told me the report was conservative; things could be worse. This was after a meeting where the reports
were presented to Presidente Davis and other city officials. The officials were critical of the reports.
This report has not been accepted by local, state or federal officials, but it did result in the commissioning of a federal government study of the
aquifer. At the meeting that is the subject of this thread, we were told that that study was conducted by a reputable scientist, that it would be
credible, and that it has been completed. Yet it has not been made public.
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djh
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I have a complete copy of the Futuros Alternativos para la Región de Loreto study. I have read it, studied it, and asked for feedback on it from
friends who work in the related sciences.
I'm not a hydrologist, limnologist, hydraulic engineer... but I have worked on regional projects that have required a significant amount of schooling
and field work, so I can read such a report with at least a little awareness of the issues, science, and scenarios. I've heard positive feedback
regarding the report from several of the scientists I've worked with (on past regional projects) who are employed by the state DEQ, the Health
District, and my regional aquifer program and municipal water programs.
IE., the report appeared to be quite well done to me. I'm a little concerned about the state and local officials not "officially" accepting the
report, but rather commissioning another... And combined with the officials giving away Loreto's water supply to LBC, my concern hints towards
suspicion.
Its all just stuff and some numbers.
A day spent sailing isn\'t deducted from one\'s life.
Peace, Love, and Music
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Hook
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Time to start towing icebergs to Loreto......mebbe, have a "land bridge" so you dont have to go all the way around the cabo........chunk it and truck
it to BOLA where lighters would be waiting in a new marina to haul it to Pto. Escondido and it's new marina.
Hey, this solution seems to encompass every crazy idea in the last 10 years.
Sorry, Don, just having a little fun at the expense of Planning: Mexican Style. I really appreciate your efforts to keep everyone informed.
Jerry, it's all the chemicals that Pescador and Pam describe that make this process so much different that simple evaporation.
And just because bases will counteract the ph balance of acids doesnt mean there aren't other undesireable byproducts.
[Edited on 3-20-2007 by Hook]
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Crusoe
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Thanks again Don......and thank you DJH. You would only hope with good honest reliable assesments of the coming water shortage, that city and govt.
officials would at least by now have some population and building ordinances set in place so the town of Loreto could have some sort of
"sustainability" plan. The L.B. C. should be required to by law to sever their water dependence from Loretos supply, and be able to only build and
develop as they are able to provide for their own subjects...... Ok, Ok, I know its Mexico and it is all about development..... But by god it is 2007
going on 2008. How long can the blind and dumb keep walking and developing. After all,there comes a time when the price of progress outstrips any idea
of bieng practical or intelligent. 
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flyfishinPam
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| Quote: | Originally posted by ncampion
Jerry actually has a good point although evaporation takes place more or less evenly over the entire surface of the sea. |
evenly is your key word. the dispursement of delas waste would be concentrated as it will be dispensed from one or more pipes set at or near the
bottom.
| Quote: | | I have not seen any actual engineering calculations on what effect the increased salt water would do when diluted into the SOC despite relativitely
light curent flow. I would expect that the out flow pipe would be located way off shore and the effluent would get diluted rapidly. Need to see some
real scientific and engineering studies on this. |
the farther the outflow pipe, the more money that needs to be spent in order to build and maintain it. food for thought. since the bottom line is
all the depvelopers give a rats ass about what do you think will happen?
| Quote: | | In the Middle East they desal nearly all their water and dump it back into the Red Sea and Persia Gulf which are both quite constricted. I bet the
water flow in the SOC is better than either of those bodies of water. |
and those seas are DEAD, lets not kill ours too.
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Don Alley
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Crusoe
The L.B. C. should be required to by law to sever their water dependence from Loretos supply, and be able to only build and develop as they are able
to provide for their own subjects...... |
However, the development of LB results in big population growth inthe municipality, more people than residents of LB proper. Water supply solutions
are best developed comprehensively instead of piecemeal, development by development.
The cost of water from desal is better spread over the entire population, rather than have specific developments creating independent systems. You
don't want the folks in Loreto supporting an expensive desal plant without the support of the higher value real estate of Loreto Bay and other tourist
developments.
I think it unlikely that water issues will derail development; with the desal option there is virtually unlimited water. But how these options are
developed can mean a great deal economically and environmentally. Some of us at least hope that these"squeaky wheels" will push devlopers and
government officials towards solutions with better results for the environment and local residents, vs. maximun benefit to visitors and developer's
bottom lines.
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