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bajalera
Super Nomad
Posts: 1875
Registered: 10-15-2003
Location: Santa Maria CA
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Yes, Cabo, please do. I need a time out.
\"Very few things happen at the right time, and the rest never happen at all. The conscientious historian will correct these defects.\" -
Mark Twain
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CaboRon
Ultra Nomad
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Location: The Valley of the Moon
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Mood: Peacefull
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DENNIS
Hey there, CaboRon
Why don't you engage MrBill in a one-on-one discussion? You seem to know what's happening in our confused world.
Give'm a try.
I'm all in on Bill. |
Since that was an emotional response on my part I had better back off. I
feel I should probably observe quite a bit more before I do any more postings in this regard. CaboRon
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MrBillM
Platinum Nomad
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Defending Aborigines
Sorry that you don't care for my commentary, Lera, but I was simply offering an intellectual counterpoint to your slavish adoration of the "Simple
Folks" and the "Simple Life" (No, not Paris Hilton). I hadn't realized that only effusive praise in support was acceptable.
I will be happy to engage your designated conductor, Cabo, in ANY Intellectual tete-a-tete he wishes, but I'm not surprised that Free-Thinking
Liberals, such as you two, hasten to dispense of anyone who differs from their orthodoxy.
As far as the Anthropology goes, do you have a reference work on Neanderthals that you're thinking of ? Nothing that I've read indicates that they
Slithered or Whined. I could be wrong. I wasn't there at the time. Lera might have been so I deign to her authority.
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DENNIS
Platinum Nomad
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Jeezo ----
I just got done laughing.
Seeing the wheat go one way............and the chaff , the other.
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Baja Bernie
`Normal` Nomad Correspondent
Posts: 2962
Registered: 8-31-2003
Location: Sunset Beach
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This is sort of why I gave up the off topic swamp
All I will say is this is most interesting we have gone from:
"Sharing and Caring" to "Spearing and Sneering"
And what is accomplished of a positive nature. I know, as do most old time Nomads that both of these folks are very good--bad when it comes to
attacking each other and occasionally a bystander such as me. Not interested in protecting either..........Remember Joe Friday and his line about
'just the facts?
amir.....sorry I researched her real name while I was doing some research for a book and found that she has and does run in circles far above my lowly
head........I only kept the information in my head. And as a result it is lost forever or until it surfaces, unbidden, at some later date and time
that makes it useless.
My smidgen of a claim to fame is that I have had so many really good friends. By Bernie Swaim December 2007
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Baja Bernie
`Normal` Nomad Correspondent
Posts: 2962
Registered: 8-31-2003
Location: Sunset Beach
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John M
Just plain old Aztec......In looking myself I find that there are the titles that you mention and others in Europe.....but I believe that they are
just new covers on the first book. He also wrote "The Journeyer' but I have not seen it and really don't even know what it is about. He writes a bit
like Mitchner but with more excitement...I mean when he talks about the priests skinning a captive and then 'wearing' the 'entire' skin to services it
is not exactly like following a solitary leaf down the river as Mitchner was wont to do.
Have you read "Forgotten Waters by Randolph Leigh about the Sea of Cortez in 1940............I just might end up posting excerpts in my 'Baja Looking
Back' site here.
My smidgen of a claim to fame is that I have had so many really good friends. By Bernie Swaim December 2007
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Gnome-ad
Nomad
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| Quote: | Originally posted by MrBillM
Although I found Anthropology interesting, I didn't come away with a fond, reverential feeling for those early savages. On the contrary, studying the
early history of mankind, I came away with a deep appreciation of the intellectual and Technical successes of some races and groups as opposed to
others. The early Egyptians, Greeks, Romans and Chinese among others, created great civilizations during the same time period that others (notably on
the American continent) remained suspended in a primitive slow-changing animistic state of life. You are Absolutely correct if you
think that I have a cynical un-appreciation of the accomplishments of those savages.
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This evening I spoke with my husband, Amir, and he told me I should really check out this thread; it was something that would interest me. He read to
me briefly from it and I was hooked. I thank bajalera for contributing this thread to the tapestry of Baja Nomad forums. It is wonderful.
MrBillM states his beliefs about the people who populated the Americas before the arrival of Europeans with the typical stereotype we were taught as
truth. I, too, believed the little I had been taught about pre-Columbus American indigenous populations. I held the view that their societies were not
as “developed” as the European, Middle Eastern and Asian. I did not, however, hold them in disdain for this. I also held the belief that they somehow
had some other secret that made them great. That may have been based on some sentimental attachment to the knowledge that arrowheads had been found on
our property when I was a youngster and I saw myself as perhaps some sort of trespasser on a history I could never truly know about. Later I learned
more reading “Tales of the Algonquin” for a book report. I visited the Serpent Mound, in my home state of Ohio. I wondered deeply about the people who
had trod the same ground I was on at that very moment. Another mystery I thought could never be fathomed.
Then recently I read the book “Aztec” mentioned earlier. It was, indeed, educational as well as vastly entertaining and well written. Though there
were parts that were exceedingly difficult to read and fathom culturally, it was presented in such a way that I could understand how these things were
simply the way it was. It should be noted that when the Spanish arrived they were amazed by the concept of indoor plumbing which was common in the
capital, not only in private homes, but public markets as well. The native people were very concerned with personal cleanliness unlike the arriving
white people. I would add that those other titles on the Aztec books you may have seen are not just new covers for the same book. “Aztec” is the first
in a series of books about post-Cortez Mexico.
For those who are interested in some more material about pre-Columbus Americas I can highly recommend the book “1491” by Charles C. Mann. Unlike
“Aztec”, “1491” is not a novel, but it is written for the layperson and very readable and educational. Mr. Mann puts together the current conventional
wisdom of archaeology and anthropology that blows apart the myths that young Americans have been taught as “truths” about native populations. MrBillM
is sure that there were no cultures or societies on this continent when the Egyptians were at their peak, as I would have thought, too, only a couple
of months ago. But, in fact there was quite complex culture in Peru.
I will quote one passage from the book regarding findings in Peru (yes, I know it’s not Baja):
Examination of Huaricanga and the surrounding communities is far from complete – Haas, Creamer, and Ruiz published their first findings in
December 2004. They found evidence of people living inland from the coast as early as 9210 B.C. But the oldest date securely associated with a city is
about 3500 B.C., at Huaricanga. (There are hints of earlier dates.) Other urban sites followed apace: Cabalette in 3100 B.C., Porvenir and Upaca in
2700 B.C. Taken individually, none of the twenty-five Chico Norte cities rivaled Sumer. Egypt’s pyramids were larger, but they were built centuries
later. I asked Hass and Creamer where a race of alien visitors in, say, 3000 B.C. would have landed if they were searching for earth’s most
sophisticated society. “I hate questions like that,” Hass said, “because they ask scientists to engage in the dubious enterprise of ranking cultures
against each other on a scale.”
“Wouldn’t it depend on what the aliens thought was sophisticated?” Creamer asked. “I mean, who knows what they would think.”
I asked them to indulge me.
“I know what you’re getting at,” Hass said, reluctantly. “In 3000 B.C. your aliens would have a very limited number of options on the menu. And
one of those options would have been the Norte Chico.”
One page later:
In the Norte Chico, Haas told me, government seems not to have arisen from the need for mutual defense, as philosophers have often speculated. The
twenty-five cities were not sited strategically and did not have defensive walls; no evidence of warfare, such as burned buildings or mutilated
corpses, has been found. Instead, he said, the basis of the rulers’ power was the collective economic and spiritual good.
And did you know that there is no “wild corn” as there is a wild strain or natural strain of every other agriculturally farmed grain? Indigenous
people developed it. It is still an ongoing argument and mystery about how they accomplished this great feat thousands of years ago. And by the time
white people arrived it was grown all over the Americas. It was quite complex here.
Many early indigenous cultures built astonishing and sophisticated irrigation systems. They farmed fish in vast man made mazes. There is even one
theory in the book regarding the Amazon basin that is worth the reading alone.
Some people have argued if they were so advanced in Peru why didn’t they develop the wheel. They actually did have wheels, but they were used on toys.
Domestic animals large enough to make the wheel practical on the exceedingly steep terrain of Peru’s cities were lacking. It was more practical to
carry a burden up the many terraces and stairways.
Even the philosophy behind our very American style of government and the American attitude is closely associated with the native tribes that the
pilgrims and settlers came in contact with in New England. Early arrivals were at first shocked and annoyed by the native’s fierce insistence that no
individual was basically any better than any other individual. This was not popular with the upper crust, who were very used to lording it over those
of lower class. The lower class, of course, were fascinated with this new idea that money, land and title did not make a person better or more
important than another. The native people were fiercely independent, proud and did not believe they should bow down to, or be intimidated by someone,
just because they were white, had guns and did not bathe. Many a white person joined tribes or adopted native ways.
Not only were these people fiercely independent, they had also figured out a way to live in peace with their neighbors, joining five nations into a
confederacy that operated under the Haudenosaunee constitution: the Great Law of Peace. All decisions had to be unanimous among the five nations. The
heads of each clan were women who managed the internal business of the clans and chose the representatives who were men. The men were admonished to
“heed the warnings of your women relatives.” If there was an extremely important matter or emergency they were required to “submit the matter to the
decision of their people” in a kind of referendum. There were a number of checks and balances in place to and codicils limiting the power of the
council. Interestingly, and unlike our government, it could negotiate peace, but could not declare war.
I could go on and on about our mis-conceptions regarding the inhabitants of the Americas before and after the arrival of Europeans (and I guess I
have). An extremely important factor is that the diseases the Europeans brought fanned out before them, decimating populations that had never even
seen a white man. There were complex trade routes that exposed many people very quickly. By the time exploration took place it seemed there were very
few indigenous people and they mostly lived primitive, nomadic lives. The author said it would be like finding the refuges from the Holocaust
wandering the street after being release from concentration camps and assuming that they were a society of people who had no possessions, and simply
wandered around in a state of starvation.
Some people say “seeing is believing,” but what the eyes see is not always the truth. We interpret what our eyes see and, unfortunately too often,
make assumptions in arrogance and/or ignorance. Personally I think ignorance is more forgivable than arrogance, because sometimes ignorance can’t be
helped – it’s just lack of information.
I’m getting ready to sort through, donate, sell, pack up or gift the remainder of our possessions in Oregon, so I’m most likely going to be real busy
for the next few weeks and will only have time to post short thoughts. Just felt fired up about this subject because of “1491” and its thought
provoking words.
It truly did make me wonder about those early Baja cave painters and the populations that were found here in what had to be a harsh environment not
conducive to much of anything but eating that aphrodisiac pithahya cactus in baby making season, fishing, hunting and the occasional scrap with
neighbors. Maybe some things never change …
[Edited on 6-8-2007 by Gnome-ad]
[Edited on 6-8-2007 by Gnome-ad]
The only normal people are the ones you don't know very well. - Ancis
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Gnome-ad
Nomad
Posts: 156
Registered: 6-4-2007
Location: Todos Santos, BCS
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Yikes bahalera! It's 4:32am here in Eugene. I'm definitely NOT getting enough sleep tonight. But it was worth it to read your words about the early
people of Baja and to share my recent revelations and thoughts.
The only normal people are the ones you don't know very well. - Ancis
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Cypress
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7641
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Location: on the bayou
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Gnome-ad AKA Mrs. Amir, Enjoyed reading your post. Thanks. Good luck with the packing and the journey.
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MrBillM
Platinum Nomad
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My LAST Word !
I know it's a relief to read that.
After this last assessment, I'll leave the Thread to those who gather in praise of the early Aboriginal inhabitants. I readily admit that I DO have a
degree of contempt for the lack of technical prowess demonstrated by those native peoples. We need only compare those societies to that of Europe,
Asia and even Saharan Africa at any given time in recorded history to know that they were woefully backwards.
It has always been true that history is written by the victors. Earlier there was a post that treated that as some sort of revelation. Even so, my
contrarian view is not a result of misconceptions or lack of research as the opposition loves to claim in order to validate their positions. Simply
look at the record of progress in the competing societies. For whatever reasons that we can only guess at, the natives of the American continent
didn't progress at the same pace when we look at the hallmarks of civilization as we know it. As I said, we can only make educated Guesses for the
reasons since they were also backwards in developing written communication skills. For hundreds of years PRIOR to the Birth of Christ, written
languages were common in Europe, Asia and North Africa. The differences are undeniable.
That's ALL, Folks.
BTW, it wasn't too many years ago that a mummified aborigine whose death from Tuberculosis predated the European arrival was found in the northeast
casting doubt that all of those diseases were imported by the Conquerors.
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Mexitron
Ultra Nomad
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Location: Fort Worth, Texas
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Gnice post Gnome-ad...thanks...
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
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Gnome-ad
I appreciate your thoughtful and informative post. I love to learn and your post has taught me some things.
I am always pleased to read information as opposed to rhetoric.
Bernie
The Journeyer may be about a eunoch who wanders Europe in the Middle ages and experiences the virtues of the highly developed and spritiually evolved
European continent the Bill so eloquently describes.
His Book Marco Polo was renamed and I may have it confused with the book noted above.
Iflyfish
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amir
Senior Nomad
Posts: 559
Registered: 5-4-2007
Location: Todos Santos, BCS
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It won't be long when a future civilization will be studying us, and they will come to the inevitable conclusion that in the XXI century, contemporary
technical prowess in the North American continent was indeed primitive and woefully backwards in relation to the newer cultures of the future.
Future researchers will probably also discover that the hallmark of progress in the most powerful civilization as we know it today was [woefully
backwards] WAR. Future scientists will also come to the conclusion that infectious agents have been around since Creation, but it is the contact with
diseased carriers that spreads the disease.
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bahiamia
Nomad
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I think one has to understand or at least try to understand the view from the "natives"...I am proud to be part American Indian from my Mom's side.
She spent some time on the reservation and they are not very happy places. Lots of people think reservations are areas where the various tribes
originally came from and just got to stay on...not true. But that's a different topic.
One has to realize the thinking and view of the world is different for a "Native" than those from Europe, or Africa, Asia, etc. And that is as it
should be. For an Indian, God is not someplace far away in heaven, but all around us in Nature. He not only created it, but is part of it. That's
why there is so much reverence towards nature in the Indian culture. To plow it under and build a massive structure on it or even to clear a field
for planting went against that reverence. So it's more about having a different approach to life.
Their history and culture was passed down verbally for the most part, not written. But also their designs and art tell a story. That was their way
and their "lanquage". Much of this got lost...and for those who survived, they were punished if they spoke in their native tongue or followed the ways
of their culture. It's sad so much of it got lost, and for those brave enough back then to keep it alive, I have the utmost respect.
Just a different point of view...
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Gnome-ad
Nomad
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Registered: 6-4-2007
Location: Todos Santos, BCS
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I am glad to see that MrBillM is still right 99.9999% of the time. What a relief!
I, too, love technology, but personally do not equate it with superiority on a human level. Europe, Asia and Africa undoubtedly contributed a vast
amount to our current state of evolution and certainly hold more sway over our technological progress. They are also in close proximity to one another
relatively speaking, with a rich cauldron of differing discoveries taking place and being shared more easily amongst those cultures with one building
on top of the other in many cases.
It is widely thought that the indigenous of the Americas left no written language. As it turns out, they did, but it was accomplished once again in a
different and foreign way; a way that until recently was overlooked as some sort of record keeping. Early records were kept with complicated knots in
different colors of cotton thread that served as a record of transactions and events. They used tremendous memory capacity as did the Hawaiians to
remember what all these knots meant. Unfortunately most of the “books” that were recognizable as such were destroyed almost immediately by the Spanish
conquerors. Eight remain. The ability to destroy has many times been associated with superiority.
It seems the thought of Mesoamericans was that timekeeping was more important than records of transactions (which was the impetus for writing in the
Middle East). So these simple savages “developed three calendars, a 365-day secular calendar; a 260-day sacred calendar that was like no other
calendar on earth; and the equally unique Long Count, a one-by-one tally of the days since a fixed starting point thousands of years ago. Establishing
these three calendars required advances in astronomy; synchronizing them required ventures into mathematics.” By synchronizing the secular and
the sacred calendar they were able to identify every date in a 52 year period uniquely. The Long Count added one more standard to identify all the 52
year periods.
In order for the complicated calendars to work properly those early people came up with the concept of zero for a positional location system. I did
not know before reading this book that “the concept of zero baffled Europeans as late as the Renaissance. How can you calculate with nothing? they
asked. Fearing that Hindu-Arabic numerals – the 0 through 9 used today – would promote confusion and fraud, some European authorities banned them
until the fourteenth century.”[i/]
Mr. Mann also states that tentatively “archaeologists assign the invention of zero to (the Olmec) sometime before 32 B.C., centuries ahead of its
invention in India.”[i/]
Too bad these cultures did not flourish and continue in some chronological way to prove that they were indeed genius. Instead they fell to wars,
disease, drought, earthquakes and the eventual conquest. Their genius came in waves, but did not as MrBillM states, continue its progress as is the
hallmark of the other continents that passed the ball back and forth always keeping it rolling. The Mesoamericans simply had no one to pass it to, so
all we can do now is study its scattered remains.
I do not dispute that tuberculosis may have been in the Americas along with syphilis, but the parts of “1491” that deal with epidemiology clearly
explain how simple diseases that may only kill a few of populations that have been exposed to it over centuries can kill much larger numbers of
populations with no exposure. The disease traffic was most certainly a one way street from Europeans to native populations with a small sidewalk in
the opposite direction. The origins of syphilis are still in debate, as it may have existed across the Atlantic before 1492, but perhaps it should be
noted that the spread of that disease from the Americas to Europe was probably from the act of rape by the Europeans rather than from the act of just
being close to the wrong diseased person at the wrong time.
I do not think indigenous Americans were “better” or “more advanced”, but I do feel they have been given the very short end of a very big stick for
far too long. They still have much to teach about how to live on the planet, something we all have in common as human beings. Their highly evolved
understanding of our place in nature is something we could all benefit from taking a closer look at. Somewhere way back in my ancestry there is some
native blood – more in my children’s lineage. After reading “1491” I had a greater appreciation of what that really means.
Somehow after three hours of sleep last night and much to do today I was still inspired by this thread to write some more. Thanks to all of you who
made kind comments about my last posting here. Sorry this ranges off topic.
The only normal people are the ones you don't know very well. - Ancis
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
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I don't believe that this ranges off topic in the least. We are dealing with cross cultural issues that come up all the time. All human beings are
ethnocentric, that is believe that their group, tribe, country, nation is the center of the universe. This perspective creates ongoing
misunderstanding between peoples of different cultures. These ethnocentric perspectives can even cause war.
At one point I generated a thread named "Cultural Differences Ain't They Interesting" on this board and there was a wide ranging, and mostly civil
discussion about common differences between USofA and Baja culture. You might be interested in visiting this dialogue. I found it fascinating and
learned a great deal. One of the most directly beneficial results was the recommendation that I read the book "There Is A Word For It In Mexico" which
clarified for me much of the confusion I have experienced in my forty some years of travel in Mexico.
In regard to the sophistication of the pre Columbian civilizations of Mesoamerica, I have found that the buildings of Chaco Canyon were plotted out on
lines leading over the horizon. It requires highly imaginative and advanced thinking to achieve such a thing.
It is very difficult to see the bones in our own noses due to our own ethnocentricity. One cultures barbarism is another’s sacred duty or holy war.
It is interesting to me how NeoCons cut and run when evidence is presented that opposes their world view. I have had this experience on a number of
occasions. I doubt that for many a reasonable argument can be either clearly heard nor integrated. It is clear to me that our individual psychology so
informs our vision and thinking that without addressing ones underlying biases we literally cannot see or hear the perspectives of others.
A very interesting series of studies were carried out at Adelphi University in New York on the Authoritarian Personality after WWII. There was great
interest in this area of study after two of these characters came into power at the same time in both Germany and Italy. The studies concluded that
this type of character is actually found on both ends of the political spectrum and has it’s roots in early childhood development.
I am going to attach a rather long quote from the Seneca Chief, Red Jacket. I am doing so because I believe it so poignantly and directly addresses
the issues raised by BillM as well as the problem of ethnocentricity.
It is rather interesting to read what this “savage” had to say to his missionary brethren in 1805.
Seneca was a member of the Iroquois Confederacy, the structure of which was described in a prior post on this thread.
Red Jacket Defends Native American Religion, 1805
by Red Jacket
The Senecas, members of the Iroquois Confederacy, fought on the side of the British in the American Revolution. Red Jacket, also known as Sagoyewatha,
was a chief and orator born in eastern New York; he derived his English name from his habit of wearing many red coats provided to him by his British
allies. After the hostilities, as the British ceded their territories to the Americans, the Senecas and many other Indian peoples faced enormous
pressure on their homelands. Red Jacket was a critical mediator in relations between the new U.S. government and the Senecas; he led a delegation that
met with George Washington in 1792, when he received a peace medal that appeared in subsequent portraits of the Indian leader. In 1805 a Boston
missionary society requested Red Jacket’s permission to proselytize among the Iroquois settlements in northern New York State. Red Jacket’s forceful
defense of native religion, below, caused the representative to refuse the Indian’s handshake and announce that no fellowship could exist between the
religion of God and the works of the Devil.
________________________________________
Friend and brother; it was the will of the Great Spirit that we should meet together this day. He orders all things, and he has given us a fine day
for our council. He has taken his garment from before the sun, and caused it to shine with brightness upon us; our eyes are opened, that we see
clearly; our ears are unstopped, that we have been able to hear distinctly the words that you have spoken; for all these favors we thank the Great
Spirit, and him only.
Brother, this council fire was kindled by you; it was at your request that we came together at this time; we have listened with attention to what you
have said. You requested us to speak our minds freely; this gives us great joy, for we now consider that we stand upright before you, and can speak
what we think; all have heard your voice, and all speak to you as one man; our minds are agreed.
Brother, you say you want an answer to your talk before you leave this place. It is right you should have one, as you are a great distance from home,
and we do not wish to detain you; but we will first look back a little, and tell you what our fathers have told us, and what we have heard from the
white people.
Brother, listen to what we say. There was a time when our forefathers owned this great island. Their seats extended from the rising to the setting
sun. The Great Spirit had made it for the use of Indians. He had created the buffalo, the deer, and other animals for food. He made the bear and the
beaver, and their skins served us for clothing. He had scattered them over the country, and taught us how to take them. He had caused the earth to
produce corn for bread. All this he had done for his red children because he loved them. If we had any disputes about hunting grounds, they were
generally settled without the shedding of much blood. But an evil day came upon us; your forefathers crossed the great waters, and landed on this
island. Their numbers were small; they found friends, and not enemies; they told us they had fled from their own country for fear of wicked men, and
come here to enjoy their religion. They asked for a small seat; we took pity on them, granted their request, and they sat down amongst us; we gave
them corn and meat; they gave us poison in return. The white people had now found our country; tidings were carried back, and more came amongst us;
yet we did not fear them, we took them to be friends; they called us brothers; we believed them, and gave them a larger seat. At length, their numbers
had greatly increased; they wanted more land; they wanted our country. Our eyes were opened, and our minds became uneasy. Wars took place; Indians
were hired to fight against Indians, and many of our people were destroyed. They also brought strong liquor among us; it was strong and powerful, and
has slain thousands.
Brother, our seats were once large, and yours were very small; you have now become a great people, and we have scarcely a place left to spread our
blankets; you have got our country, but are not satisfied; you want to force your religion upon us.
Brother, continue to listen. You say you are sent to instruct us how to worship the Great Spirit agreeably to his mind, and if we do not take hold of
the religion which you white people teach, we shall be unhappy hereafter. You say that you are right, and we are lost; how do we know this to be true?
We understand that your religion is written in a book; if it was intended for us as well as you, why has not the Great Spirit given it to us, and not
only to us, but why did he not give to our forefathers the knowledge of that book, with the means of understanding it rightly? We only know what you
tell us about it. How shall we know when to believe, being so often deceived by the white people?
Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit; if there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much
about it? Why not all agree, as you can all read the book?
Brother, we do not understand these things. We are told that your religion was given to your forefathers, and has been handed down from father to son.
We also have a religion which was given to our forefathers, and has been handed down to us their children. We worship that way. It teacheth us to be
thankful for all the favors we receive; to love each other, and to be united. We never quarrel about religion.
Brother, the Great Spirit has made us all; but he has made a great difference between his white and red children; he has given us a different
complexion, and different customs; to you he has given the arts; to these he has not opened our eyes; we know these things to be true. Since he has
made so great a difference between us in other things, why may we not conclude that he has given us a different religion according to our
understanding. The Great Spirit does right; he knows what is best for his children; we are satisfied.
Brother, we do not wish to destroy your religion, or take it from you; we only want to enjoy our own.
Brother, you say you have not come to get our land or our money, but to enlighten our minds. I will now tell you that I have been at your meetings,
and saw you collecting money from the meeting. I cannot tell what this money was intended for, but suppose it was for your minister; and if we should
conform to your way of thinking, perhaps you may want some from us.
Brother, we are told that you have been preaching to the white people in this place. These people are our neighbors; we are acquainted with them; we
will wait, a little while and see what effect your preaching has upon them. If we find it does them good, makes them honest and less disposed to cheat
Indians, we will then consider again what you have said.
Brother, you have now heard our answer to your talk, and this is all we have to say at present. As we are going to part, we will come and take you by
the hand, and hope the Great Spirit will protect you on your journey, and return you safe to your friends.
Source: Daniel Drake, Lives of Celebrated American Indians, Boston, Bradbury, Soden & Co. 1843), 283–87.
Iflyfish
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sylens
Senior Nomad
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Registered: 4-6-2005
Location: Ensenada
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Mood: ando bajando
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bajalera iflyfish gnome-ad
and other contributors to this rich and enlightening thread, mil gracias. i just finished (re-)watching the film hawaii and the thoughts and feelings
it evoked have been beautifully articulated and elaborated by reading this wonderful topic, delightfully titled "sharing and caring."
lili
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bahiamia
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One more thought...
| Quote: |
Simply look at the record of progress in the competing societies. For whatever reasons that we can only guess at, the natives of the American
continent didn't progress at the same pace when we look at the hallmarks of civilization as we know it. As I said, we can only make educated Guesses
for the reasons since they were also backwards in developing written communication skills. For hundreds of years PRIOR to the Birth of Christ, written
languages were common in Europe, Asia and North Africa. The differences are undeniable.
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Ok, so if all this progress going on over Europe and elsewhere, why did their inhabitants risk life and limb to cross an ocean, to unknown lands and
leave all that progress, civilization & technology behind? What were they seeking? Why were all those grandiose achievements in science, written
text, and other doings not enough to keep them satisfied if that's really what it's all about in life?
[Edited on 6-9-2007 by bahiamia]
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MrBillM
Platinum Nomad
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Why ?
Although I had not intended to comment further on this thread, this question/comment by bahiamia has too simple an answer to pass up. It is so
obvious that it's difficult to believe that this is a real question:
Q.
"Ok, so if all this progress going on over Europe and elsewhere, why did their inhabitants risk life and limb to cross an ocean, to unknown lands to
leave all that progress, civilization & technology behind? What were they seeking? Why were all those grandiose achievements in science, written
text, and other doings not enough to keep them satisfied and give them satisfaction if that's really what it's all about in life?"
A. MORE ! Wealth, that is. Love them or Hate them, they came for whatever they could find of value. In addition to Gold and
Silver, they came for ANYTHING (including Humans) that would further enrich their respective countries. This has ALWAYS been the reason for seeking
out unknown territories.
But then, you knew that, didn't you ?
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
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Registered: 10-17-2006
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MrBillM wrote:
"MORE ! Wealth, that is. Love them or Hate them, they came for whatever they could find of value. In addition to Gold and Silver, they came for
ANYTHING (including Humans) that would further enrich their respective countries. This has ALWAYS been the reason for seeking out unknown
territories."
I am certain that most of the Conquistadores were motivated by a desire to enhance their economic and social well being. None expected Cortez to pull
the plug and sink the boat. Most wished to return home with wealth.
I also believe that behavior is multiply determined and to posit that the ONLY motivation for "seeking out unknown territories" was economic gain does
not take into account other motivations that might also have been moving these people to cross an ocean to a distant continent. Some may have been
AVOIDING issues at home. Some also may have been motivated by a WONDERLUST that was focused on this sort of adventure. People don't just join the
Marines to "Serve their Country." They often have scores to settle, points to prove, self discipline to gain etc. I have seen many young men join the
military to AVOID prison.
I have traveled to unknown territories to enrich my EXPERIENCE of life and my KNOWLEDGE of other people and other CULTURES. CURIOSITY, WONDER and a
THIRST FOR KNOWLEDGE have been a big part of my WONDERLUST for sure. I have never made a dime in all my travels, in fact I have put out a lot of them.
I am sure that other humans before me have had similar motivations.
Do you think that courageous among us who join The Peace Corps are motivated by the vision of PROFIT? You seem to believe that economics motivates all
behavior. You are in good company there with Chairman Mao who postulated that people in the West developed their identity around Capitalism and the
acquisition of personal wealth.
When asked who we are in the USofA most would say what job we hold. In most other cultures that question would be answered with references to kinship
bonds i.e. "I am the son of .......the daughter of.......the nephew to....... Many see this aspect of USofA Culture and identity as aberrant and
Narcissistic. Some see us as a bunch of "Tribes of One" with no identification with the "Commons", or the larger group to which we belong.
Notice bahiamia's comments, delivered with a great sense of humility, and respect. Notice the sense of belonging and respect for self and environment
in what he is saying? He is expressing a different way of experiencing and valuing the very short time that we have on this earth and of our relation
to it. You no doubt do not acknowledge the reality of global warming. You no doubt deny the reality of the damage to the land that strip mining has
had. You no doubt deny the relation between man made pollution and the numbers of children in the world dying of asthma. You no doubt deny that our
rivers are being polluted to the edge of extinction. You no doubt deny that the levels of mercury have increased so much in lakes in the USofA that
the fish are uneatable. You no doubt deny that the USofA is seen as the last of the Colonial Empires that engages in war to exploit other nations. You
no doubt deny that our “progress and technology”, the military type, where we are putting most of our wealth, is creating havoc in the world and
taking and ruining the lives of hundreds of thousands of people. You no doubt believe that the values expressed by the USofA are superior to “native
peoples who want to live in peace and harmony with the earth” and that we have nothing to learn from them.
It is clear from this and other posts that you value technological progress above all other human values and motivations. Some would feel sad and
empty with such a narrow view of what has value in life.
You have read very thoughtful and well though out posts that challenge your pejorative perspective related to Native Peoples. I am sorry that you have
so much to defend and so little to defend it with.
bahiamia plays Red Jacket to your jingoistic Missionary posts and you do not even see it.
Ilfyfish
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