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oldhippie
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I think DENNIS is right, the original question was asked in a manner that makes finding an answer difficult.
Whether you're meddling or mentoring depends upon the specific instance.
I think getting involved in environmental issues is mentoring. If development is happening in such a way that it will be harmful to the natural
environment, getting involved is an obligation, regardless of where you were born. Especially if you live in the area that is being damaged.
Do you think these people are meddlers or mentors?
Think globally, act locally.
http://tinyurl.com/2fpkbd
[Edited on 8-20-2007 by oldhippie]
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Osprey
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My heart soars like an eagle! So many wonderful ideas and feelings on the matter! I hope the thread goes on but I did want to add a small point here
about the language. Those who think it appropriate to offer help in their communities are probably those with the language skills to do so -- if they
speak the language they probably have a degree of acceptance in the village, if not, Mexican villagers couldn't get what they wanted to offer. Many
of you put forth the idea that most Mexicans will not appreciate being offered advice or help of any kind if it goes against their tradition. And
there is a timing thing here -- as example: My gringo neighbor, a retired engineer, has tried and tried to help the town upgrade and change the water
delivery system. They don't want his advice or aid. I get the sense that 50 years from now the system in the town will be something like the one he
would advise as and when they have the $ and new knowledge to get there on their own -- he was insisting they do it Thursday and that's just not the
way it works down here.
I made my query much too broad but most of you cleverly brought me back to center. This fall, when they start the gimongous projects all up and down
our beaches I will make it a point to chat up some of my friends at the delegacion but only to let them know if the town wants input from some of the
gringos I will help in any way I can. Maybe they'll remember some small things I helped them with in the past and the generousity shown by lots of my
gringo neighbors when the town needed help with one project or another that had no chance from governmental funding sources.
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oxxo
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| Quote: | | Originally posted by morgaine7I'm inclined to lurk until I've figured out my role in the community |
I agree. I try to keep a very low profile. I have been in my share of "demonstrations" Stateside over the years. But not in Mexico. When it is
appropriate and fits my philosophy, I try to mimmick the positive local customs. When in Rome, I do as the Romans do. If I can help out without
getting in the way, I do so but keep it low key. I do not offer advice or volunteer my services in local matters. My Mexican friends know who I am
and where to find me. If they need something from me, they feel comfortable asking me...when they are ready.
I find that the thing that most impresses my Mexican neighbors and creates the greatest goodwill is an attempt to speak their language. As I stumble
and bumble my way through Spanish, they are always very gracious and most appreciative. The other night I was at the San Jose airport waiting for an
arrival that had been delayed. So I sat on the wall with the taxi drivers and time share salesmen who were bored passing the time. Even though they
all could speak English better than my Spanish, I never pass up an opportunity to practice. They were playing around and joking in Spanish and so I
tried to make a few amusing observations in Spanish. Well my comments were met with great laughter. I'm not sure if they were laughing at my comic
relief or my Spanish syntax! Anyway they just accepted me as one of the boys. I was fitting in seamlessly. I was relaxed and they were relaxed.
Finally the plane arrived and the local boys looked for their pigeons....oh, I mean clients. One of the fellows asked an older American gentlemen in
heavily accented in English if he could help. The American raised his voice and said angrily, "Speak to me in English." The boys looked at me as if
to say, what's his problem. I was very embarrassed.
Yes, the role of mentoring is foremost here.......but from the other direction. At this point in my life and in this location, I have much to learn
from my Mexican paisanos as they help me "detox" from a lifetime of addictions and preconceived ideas north of the border.
JMO
[Edited on 8-20-2007 by oxxo]
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Don Alley
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Posts: 1997
Registered: 12-4-2003
Location: Loreto
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One kind of involvement is to actually live in a neighborhood and get involved on a small scale. In other words, "charity" may involve helping get
eyegalsses for little Pedro, some school supplies for Ernest and Lupita, or medical help for Juan. I does get a little complicated; you want to help,
some of the neighbors can use the help, but you want to avoid being an easy "mark" to some of them. Time and friendship helps sort those possible
issues out, at least on a small local scale. And when you are involved on a smal scale, with your help directed to friends and neighbors, they have
opportunities to respond by helping us too. I think mostly it's worked out well for us and I prefer that most of my charitable help be directed in
this way as opposed to organized charities raising money for "categories" of people, or buying air conditioners for a school that won't/can't pay the
power bills to run them. (Flame suit on) I am somewhat uncomfortable with high profile gringo charities "helping the poor Mexicans." And I wonder if
sometimes some of the Loretanos are uncomfortable too.
Now, as far as political and development issues... I do have experience meddling in such things, enough that I really don't want to do any more. I'm a
burn out. But what I see in Loreto is really not that new an experience, is not that unique, and I don't really buy into the opinion that there are
huge cultural differences. I see "deja vu all over again" as big development interests move into a small rural community, where local decision makers
are local small town residents with little political experience and no experience with such development; they tend to be trusting and are easily
swayed by promises of prosperity. These issues are complicated in Loreto by the lack of a strong local media infrastructure, and what I perceive as
blatant dishonesty by certain developers far beyond anything I have seen in the valleys and forests of Montana and the coal fields of SE British
Columbia. I don't have the answers, or the energy to implement them if I did, but we do speak with our neighbors, and we do attend meetings, where our
status as foreign expats has not been a big problem. But I do have to continue working on language skills.
Recently, some of the downsides of massive devlopment (at least in a scale with Loreto's size) are beginning to manifest themselves. Like sewage
running down muddy streets amidst unprecedented amounts of traffic. Restrictions on water use. Inflationary prices for goods, services, food and
housing. Long lines at the clinics. These will help jump start a real dialogue on what's happening and there will be increased opportunities for
individuals of all nationalities to have some small input in order to secure some mitigation and modification of development plans.
Meanwhile, an entirely different issue is Norh Americans communicating with North Americans, asking that potential buyers here think a little harder
and dig a little deeper before buying into some of the development plans.
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Baja Bernie
`Normal` Nomad Correspondent
Posts: 2962
Registered: 8-31-2003
Location: Sunset Beach
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Mood: Just dancing through life
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Cypress for Pres & Don Alley for Treasurer
Over the years I have found that being examples allows the Mexicans to take what they will and reject that which will not work for them without the
conflict of direct rejection or confrontation. Seems to me that very few folks reject something when they see that it works and benefits them
directly.
I have also experienced many of the things that Don Alley point to and totally agree that one on one giving--[and receiving] may be slow but works
best for all sides.
I know I don't always practice that but I sure try.
My smidgen of a claim to fame is that I have had so many really good friends. By Bernie Swaim December 2007
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bajalou
Ultra Nomad
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Location: South of the broder
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Osprey
Many of you put forth the idea that most Mexicans will not appreciate being offered advice or help of any kind if it goes against their tradition.
And there is a timing thing here -- as example: My gringo neighbor, a retired engineer, has tried and tried to help the town upgrade and change the
water delivery system. They don't want his advice or aid. I get the sense that 50 years from now the system in the town will be something like the
one he would advise as and when they have the $ and new knowledge to get there on their own -- he was insisting they do it Thursday and that's just
not the way it works down here.
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My observations are that this is often the case. We "Know it all" Americans have the answers as we know how it all must be done. A retired large
animal veterinarian friend of mine had lots of suggestions how the ranchers could improve the way the inoculated their stock. Costing some dollars,
but entirely more efficient. My Mexican friends told him, thanks, we like to do it our way. This was 5 years ago. The vet still wonders
occasionally why they won't do it his much superior way.
No Bad Days
\"Never argue with an idiot. People watching may not be able to tell the difference\"
\"The trouble with doing nothing is - how do I know when I\'m done?\"
Nomad Baja Interactive map
And in the San Felipe area - check out Valle Chico area |
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jerry
Super Nomad
Posts: 1354
Registered: 10-10-2003
Location: loreto
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old hippie i think its very self serving to say that it your obligation to be a meddler
especially when you get payed for it by specal intrest groups
form what i can gather from here it was voted on by the people of Loreto enoff said
jerry and judi
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toneart
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I have experienced it both ways. Twenty five years ago I lived in San Miguel de Allende. There was/is a marvelous art school there, The Instituto,
around which the gringo community flourished. The faculty, retirees and students, contributed a lot to the community, greatly improving the local
economy.
Fast forward to the present: The infrastructure of the old Colonial village cannot sustain the flood of residents, development and tourists that our
initial success brought. Upon revisiting recently, housing prices are wa-a-a-y out of reach for most of us and the beautiful central plaza, The
Jardin, experiences grid lock at all hours. The streets are now all one way, but it is impossible to drive or park in town. You can imagine what the
carbon monoxide feels like in your eyes and lungs. Well, we taught them "progress", all right!
In Mulege during the flood, a certified diver and instructor offered his services to the local rescue effort and was told that this was a municipal
emergency and to basically butt out. He went around them and did his own rescue with boat and by diving into structures.
I know experienced gringos who have been in the construction trades all their lives, offer advice. It is clear that advice could have helped, but as
soon as the gringo presence left the scene, they went back to their old ways, making errors that were sometimes comical and sometimes dangerous.
There is a thriving Pitbull fighting culture there. When gringos have expressed disdain and sorrow, they are told, "This is our culture. You may not
like the trouble you will face if you try to intervene."
As far as development is concerned, those decisions are made by big money and government officials, at all levels and much monetary motivation, if you
will. If you are a resident, in business or with connections, and are invited to sit on boards or committees, you can give your input. You can express
your environmental concerns if you know "la onda", the Mexican way. That may serve to make you feel better but it is doubtful that it will have any
impact on big development decisions.
Mexico has many ways to teach patience, and if you don't learn it, you won't be happy living in their country. It also has many ways to have you
deported in you are seen as a meddler.
There are global organizations where you can be more effective by donating money and being an activiist.
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Skeet/Loreto
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" Do unto others as you would do to yourself""!!
Be kind to all and to those with Lessor Goods, Be Chairtible!
Respect others as you Respect yourself.
Try to stop thinking that your way is the Only Way.
Keep your Word.
Skeet/Loreto
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toneart
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4901
Registered: 7-23-2006
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
" Do unto others as you would do to yourself""!!
Be kind to all and to those with Lessor Goods, Be Chairtible!
Respect others as you Respect yourself.
Try to stop thinking that your way is the Only Way.
Keep your Word.
Skeet/Loreto |
Good words of wisdom, Skeet!
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Cypress
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7641
Registered: 3-12-2006
Location: on the bayou
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Mood: undecided
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Baja Bernie You might want to give that a little more thought.
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bajajudy
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6886
Registered: 10-4-2004
Location: San Jose del Cabo,BCS
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24 hours after my first post on this thread:
I moved down here to live in what, anyone who has ever been here would agree, is a barrio. It is funny when the “what is your view thread” was
running, I debated about posting my views…(well, I used to have a view of the sea but then a hardware store moved into the lot in front of me. Now
instead of looking longingly at the sea while I wash my dishes, I look at an ugly block wall…cleverly disguised now with lotsa plants). But basically
my view is of typical Mexican lower income houses. Some aren’t much more that shacks, some are made of blocks, some of bricks…few have windows, none
have screens, only a couple are painted.
So why did I move into this place? Well, mainly because I didn’t want to live in one of JR’s enclaves.
When I look around me, I did a great job. Aside from the hardware store, I still have the same neighbors as I did 10 years ago.
So now I live in their midst. Should I tell them that I think that they should get off their burros and do something about this terrible uncontrolled
growth happening in their community…how could I do that? I think that we are the problem because we came here to make something for ourselves, just
like all the developers who are here now. Were our motives purer? Did we come here to change the very place we love by trying to run it. It is
dilemma that I do not have the answer to.
But for now, I am still lurking and trying to be a good neighbor to my new friends.
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Sharksbaja
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Is it so different in your own (US) neighborhood? Are you pleased by the way your opinion and that of others is considered when Wal-Mart comes to your
little town? Could it be your own (English speaking) neighbors don't like your chain-link fence or maybe the way you set up your solar walkway lights?
Other powers are at work. You know, like the City Council.
It's clear to me that it is not a matter of acceptance. It's a matter of respect. We have to accept our neighbors at face value here. But
when your neighbor decides to log off your trees and stake his own claims on your land w/o one word to you would you consider him a meddler. I have
other adjectives for them. You can label anyone, just be concise and accurate before you do.
I simply call them Busybodies. I find it hard to assimilate into JRs enclave mentality.
Cypress for Gubenator, oops........ president!
DON\'T SQUINT! Give yer eyes a break!
Try holding down [control] key and toggle the [+ and -] keys
Viva Mulege!
Nomads\' Sunsets
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oldhippie
Banned
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Registered: 6-25-2006
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Mentoring
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Baja Bernie
`Normal` Nomad Correspondent
Posts: 2962
Registered: 8-31-2003
Location: Sunset Beach
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| Quote: | Originally posted by bajajudy
24 hours after my first post on this thread:
I think that we are the problem because we came here to make something for ourselves, just like all the developers who are here now. Were our
motives purer? Did we come here to change the very place we love by trying to run it. It is dilemma that I do not have the answer to.
But for now, I am still lurking and trying to be a good neighbor to my new friends. |
Judy, Bravo! You may have caused us to all look into a mirror!
My smidgen of a claim to fame is that I have had so many really good friends. By Bernie Swaim December 2007
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Pescador
Ultra Nomad
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When a friend of minewas growing up he had two rather interesting and diverse experiences with Mexico. In the first he was approximately 14 and had a
chance to spend some of the summer with a Franciscan priest who had moved to the Chiapas area to do some projects in an small mountain village.
Because the priest had connections with a pipe company back in the US, they got a very large load of pipe donated and they were able to run the pipe
from higher in the mountains and bring water to the village. My son spent the summer living with a local family and they spent the summer working and
playing together and developed lasting relationships. They also got pretty involved with local politics since El Pino company was paying almost
nothing for pine tar collection. They were invited to the local meetings because it was clearly understood that they had experience with this kind of
thing, but they had proven themselves beforehand and were therefore welcomed into the village political scene and made some serious contributions. In
fact, in the end, that is why the priest was probably relocated to somewhere else at a later date.
This was such a good experience that when he was working in Texas his boss was involved in a evangelical Church program where they were building a
church in a local village. When they found out about his earlier experience they insisted that he go with them to help. Here they lived in an hotel,
ate in restaurants, and had only limited interactions with the local people that they were "helping". No one really spoke the language and they were
mostly regarded by the locals as benefactors who were building a church and that was about it.
While he made lifelong friends with the first experience, his second trip produced no real friends or anything and today the church has been pretty
much abandoned and is not used.
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The Gull
Super Nomad
Posts: 2223
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Location: Rancho Descanso, BCN
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Don't mentor or meddle.
Exploit, until there is a better pickings elsewhere.
USA will be owned by China by 2012, so move your assets around just ahead of them and you will always be making money, which is the only objective of
life. Right?
If someone is offering assistance in language skills, I'll choose English. Gud spakers and riters need aply.
�I won\'t insult your intelligence by suggesting that you really believe what you just said.� William F. Buckley, Jr.
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capn.sharky
Senior Nomad
Posts: 686
Registered: 9-4-2003
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One caution about living in Mexico. Do not get involved politically. That is the fastest way to be sent accross the border that I know of. In
Loreto, those that want to get involved do it through the Internado School or on a one to one basis with their Mexican friends. If I am asked a
direct question, I answer it as truthfully as I can. I am often asked why Americans don't want Mexicans in our country. I tell them most Americans
like the Mexican people but want to control our border due to the terrorist movement. Therefore, those that come legally are most welcome. Remember,
in answering these types of questions, you are really being an ambassador of sorts for the U. S. I was once asked to visit the President of the
Pueblo to share some ideas. I did not go to his office because when his term is up, there will be another President with different ideas and he might
not like something I said. I try to follow the rules and customs of the Mexicans and always show them respect. I never get upset if they are late or
don't even show up. They will eventually get the job done most times. I don't tell them how to do their job but will occasionally offer suggestions.
Actually, I get along quite well with the Mexicans---its the Americans and Canadians that I seem to have more problems with.
If there is no fishing in heaven, I am not going
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toneart
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4901
Registered: 7-23-2006
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| Quote: | Originally posted by The Gull
Don't mentor or meddle.
Exploit, until there is a better pickings elsewhere.
USA will be owned by China by 2012, so move your assets around just ahead of them and you will always be making money, which is the only objective of
life. Right?
If someone is offering assistance in language skills, I'll choose English. Gud spakers and riters need aply. |
Uhh..........perhaps you'd better exploit CSL lessons! 
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
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When I started the thread: Cultural Differences Ain't they Interesting some one recommended the book There is a word for it in Mexico. I love that
book and believe it has helped me a great deal to understand some of the issues that really perplexed me about the differences between Mexicans and
Anglos. It is a must read for anyone wanting to really understand Mexicans and Mexican culture.
There are very real and deep seated differences between Norte and Mexican Cultures. There are many reasons why trying to influence Mexicans is fraught
with difficulty. I will not elaborate much more save to recommend that book.
On a personal level I know that in order to lead anyone, you must first "join". We only have one life time and it is short compared to the calendar of
culture.
I may have already told the story of the clinic we established that we eventually turned over to Native Mexicans. It involved some very expensive and
technical equipment that one night was blown to smithereens by a circuit going out in this very expensive, fancy commercial complex. It turned out
that the ground wire for the ENTIRE COMPLEX was never attached! It was deemed to be "an act of god". God must have taken the day off, or maybe have
been scared to do anything that might get him in trouble, like hooking that wire up to the post 1/4 inch below it. Ne modo, an act of god.
I later had the experience of talking with another Mexican electrician, well respected apparently, who wired the building that we had attached our
motor home to for power. I felt this odd tingling when I touched the motor home. ..... odd... then on applying more pressure I really felt the
jolt.....not grounded... the entire house was not grounded. I was never so glad that I was not standing in water!! The electrician said "we just cut
that wire off, we don't use it here down south, they use it up north, we don't need it here". This in the face of my reporting near electrocution. I
wondered if this guy had maybe touched too many hot wires in his day......not. He just did not want to do something "new" or "different" than what he
was trained to do. If he did something different it could lead to trouble. I think that this was his deep down thinking. Houses all used to have two
wires....why a third......I don't know and it has always been done that way before....ne modo......why is this gringo creating bad feelings??.... the
wires are all in and the electricity works.....trouble maker......what is he trying to do......make trouble??....pinch.....etc.
I don't know that I have answered Osprey's question except to express some real pessimism about how much one can really expect to influence such
deeply held cultural ways of being that are involved in Mexican culture. Mexicans are not having a very good time of it here in the states convincing
our schools that it aught to be ok for kids to spend a month or so in Mexico over the two week Christmas holiday with their families! They really do
value family, the USofA says it does. They are however making great inroads into our cuisine.
Iflyfish
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