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MrBillM
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Minefield Morality ?
Unless someone can prove differently, I am unaware of the United States using Minefields in other than a wartime setting so there is
no comparison between the two.
That said, I have NO problem with the necessary use of mines on land or at sea in wartime. Let the chips fall where they may.
As earlier stated, WE (being the United States Government) are NOT throwing anyone into a Snake pit. Those who choose to make that
crossing are exercising their free will. Bad decisions often have bad consequences.
Since we are constrained by economics, the government has the responsibility to its Tax-paying citizens and LEGAL residents to act in the most
fiscally responsible manner.
Most, if not all, of our societal decisions are (correctly) based on economics. Whatever the Government does in regulation concerning traffic laws,
environmental decisions, food and drug safety, criminal and civil law enforcement, are judged on a cost-benefit ratio. Decisions are made
Knowing that they will cost lives. The determination is that those regulations will save more than they kill. A Macro-Actuarial
decision necessary to maintain balance in society.
The most idiotic phrase I hear bellowed on a regular basis is "If it saves just one person, it's worth it".
Of course, that's NOT true and we have never governed as if it was. We never will, Thank God.
Dollars and Sense.
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DENNIS
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| Quote: | Originally posted by MrBillM
Dollars and Sense. |
Dollars and nonsense, Bill. We have a border patrol that does very little to STOP illegal immigration. I know...they run around the hills and park
under trees looking and waiting........and sleeping. Why bother? They are the joke of the game.
It evidently needs to be militarized. Insult to Mexico or not. The BP can not do the job asked of them. Maybe that's the government plan.
The border? Do it or don't but, quit playing games.
On a personal note... I just went to Sharkys for a couple and while I was in there, THEY stole the catalytic convertor off my truck.
It's Baja and I really like the people.
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Dave
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WTF?
| Quote: | Originally posted by DENNIS
On a personal note... I just went to Sharkys for a couple and while I was in there, THEY stole the catalytic convertor off my truck.
It's Baja and I really like the people. |
How does that happen? Are they practiced in stealth or use rubberized tools? And why would they steal it? Someone needs to pass an inspection?
Why wouldn't they just steal the friggin truck?
If these guys would just legally apply themselves , Mexico would have a space program. 
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ELINVESTIG8R
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| Quote: | | If these guys would just legally apply themselves , Mexico would have a space program. |
Hahahahahaha sooooo true.
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DENNIS
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Dave
How does that happen? Are they practiced in stealth or use rubberized tools? And why would they steal it? Someone needs to pass an inspection?
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It's epidemic in the states as well. They reportedly do it for the valuable metal inside. Platinum and all that crap. That is my understanding.
Saw it on the news.
By the way....My truck is a 97 Nissan strippy, the ultimate Pizzachit. Sharkys just went from "Fine neighborhood family establishment" to ghetto
gin mill. I'm done there.
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Barry A.
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The Border Patrol does the best they can------------it is an impossible job----------if you had 50,000 border patrol agents, they could still not stop
the flood of illegals------the border is simply too long to patrol with people. Electric sensors and state-of-the-art gizmos help, but you still need
personel to respond to what the "gizmos" see------again, an impossible job----they simply cannot be everywhere they need to be, simultaneously.
The fence will help tremendously, slow down the flood, and allow the Border Patrol (etc.) to come much closer to doing the job we expect them to---and
that is a proven fact----it's a BORDER, not an immaginary line.
EVERYBODY is responsible for their own decisions, and the consequences of those decisions, especially when they are engaged in illegal
activity--------the USA bears no responsibility for people who choose to take risks, break the law, and come to a sad end because of those decisions.
--------highways are designed for highspeed driving------when somebody gets killed doing something illegal on the highways should we just throw up our
hands and walk away from any laws regarding the use of the highways?? To me this is the same as the "border"-------you use whatever tools are at
your disposal to gain control, and that includes fences, and whatever else you can use that is economically feasible, and you DON'T make decisions
based on what happens to relatively few people acting foolishly and illegally.
barry
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DENNIS
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Barry A.
The Border Patrol does the best they can------------it is an impossible job----------
and you DON'T make decisions based on what happens to relatively few people acting foolishly and illegally. |
Perhaps the US government should make decisions based on your first statement.
Again, I agree. It has to stop but, a stupid fence is a ******* joke. Which south western governor said, "Show me a fifty foot fence and I'll show
you a fifty one foot ladder."
Believing that a chicken**** manmade barrior will stop anybody without being guarded and maintained by people is desperate self-illusion. It won't
work.
Suggest something that will work if you want to help the issue. The US taxpayer is worn thin with wasted efforts. The stupid fence in the middle of
nowhere is just another one.
[Edited on 11-25-2007 by Hose A]
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Barry A.
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Dennis-----
It depends on what you mean by "it won't work".
Obviously it is not the total answer, but as I said, it will help, and of course it has to be monitored by people, or electronics coupled with people,
but IT WILL WORK in the context of what is intended.
The cost is a pitance compared with what the illegals are costing the tax payer now------
I cannot fathom why folks are so negative about the "fence"-------all the reasons people give for "not likeing the fence" seem totally bogus and
non-sensical, to me.
But, we obviously see it differently---------------
barry
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DENNIS
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If you have to babysit the fence with people, What's the sense. Militarize the border and have troops watch it. If that is offensive to our
neighbors, move the military line back a couple of miles and dig in.
Barry, have you seen the numbers for building a fence? How many millions per mile and, for what? A barrier to be climbed over, tunneled under or
torn apart then, rebuilt. I want the contract.
The fence, by itself, wont work. The federal agencys wont be guarding a border, they'll be guarding a fence. What a huge waste of money just to
make a statement.
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Barry A.
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Dennis-------
Tho I don't agree with you about the fence, I have no problem with "militarizing" the border, at least on a temporary basis UNTIL THE FENCE CAN BE
BUILT. 
However, I pity the poor soldiers who have THAT duty------talk about boring, and expensive (yeh, I know, we pay the Army folks anyway). The folks
that go into the Border Patrol know what they are getting into-----not so the soldiers. The only way it would work is to rotate the duty.
The "fence" makes more sense, however, even if we have to electrify it (hard on animals, tho)---------WHATEVER WORKS.
People who say the "fence" is an affront are perhaps correct------but believe me, that is the LEAST of my worries. I am interested in results,
period-----cut down on the illegals ASAP. Most of the folks I know that are against the fence are really "open border" people, but most try to hide
that by bleating, " the fence won't work"!!! I don't think you are one of these types, tho.
All the other ideas that I have heard are "pie in the sky" ideas, it seems to me------like expecting Mexico to help with our border
problem-------ain't going to happen, I am betting.
barry
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DENNIS
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Barry A.
People who say the "fence" is an affront are perhaps correct------but believe me, that is the LEAST of my worries. I am interested in results,
period-----cut down on the illegals ASAP. Most of the folks I know that are against the fence are really "open border" people, but most try to hide
that by bleating, " the fence won't work"!!! I don't think you are one of these types, tho.
barry |
The least of my worries as well. No "open border" mindset here.....I just don't think the fence is the proper tool for the job.
I would much prefer a deep, fast running moat, for 'irrigation" purposes. That would give the lifeguards of the world something to do besides cry.
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MrBillM
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Mining the Border
One of the more interesting (but impractical) proposals I've heard over the years was the one to place "Mines" that spewed indelible paint similar to
that used in Bank "Dye Bombs". The idea being that Border "Migrants" would be covered with the stuff for days and be more readily identifiable in the
general populace.
It doesn't take much thinking to realize how many things could go wrong with an idea like that, but it makes for great fantasies.
The thing about "Proposals" is not what they propose, but whether they survive scrutiny and are adopted. The government agencies are constantly
weighing all sorts of possible actions to determine their practical application, including myriad "Conflict" scenarios.
FIRST, we need to clearly define our objective and operate accordingly. The problem is not the capabilities of the Border Enforcement personnel, but
the "Rules of Engagement" they operate under. Often those rules are in conflict due to political considerations.
Build the Wall, hire more Officers, install the Sensors, fly the Drones. Each geographical area will determine the best interception technology. As
with any other category of criminal activity, the answer is enforcement and not surrender simply because it's too hard.
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Minnow
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| Quote: | Originally posted by MrBillM
One of the more interesting (but impractical) proposals I've heard over the years was the one to place "Mines" that spewed indelible paint similar to
that used in Bank "Dye Bombs". The idea being that Border "Migrants" would be covered with the stuff for days and be more readily identifiable in the
general populace.
It doesn't take much thinking to realize how many things could go wrong with an idea like that, but it makes for great fantasies.
The thing about "Proposals" is not what they propose, but whether they survive scrutiny and are adopted. The government agencies are constantly
weighing all sorts of possible actions to determine their practical application, including myriad "Conflict" scenarios.
FIRST, we need to clearly define our objective and operate accordingly. The problem is not the capabilities of the Border Enforcement personnel, but
the "Rules of Engagement" they operate under. Often those rules are in conflict due to political considerations.
Build the Wall, hire more Officers, install the Sensors, fly the Drones. Each geographical area will determine the best interception technology. As
with any other category of criminal activity, the answer is enforcement and not surrender simply because it's too hard. |
Bill, now I know this is really going to pee you off, but...
You obviously are a very intelligent guy. I agree with everything you have written on this thread. 
One more thing. Didn't we pass a law that we are to secure our southern border? Why hasn't that happened?
I just wish the laws that we already have would be enforced. Otherwise, our system is just what the liberals would have of it. One that they can
pick and choose which laws to follow.
Proud husband of a legal immigrant.
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juangrandebigjohn
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The border fence on the border of Columbus,NM,Las Palomas,Chihuahua was originally built for a distance of 18 killometers as much as 78 feet into
Mexico terriority in April May of this year.The Mexicans realized this almost immediately but the wall contnued for almost two months while goverment
of USA sorted out things.In other words we spent millions continuing the error instead of sorting things out and stopping work till situation was
rectified.So we spent literally millions tearing down huge sections of fence and then rebuiding,the Mexicans were really quite cordial about the
error.Another example of governments pigheadedness.And YES,I am one of those open border people and proud of it!
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MrBillM
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OOPS.
While an interesting example of Governmental mistakes (if accurate), the construction cited is irrelevant when discussing whether or not the wall
should be built and the border secured. It's akin to saying the B-2 shouldn't have been built because they paid too much for a part. Apples and
Oranges.
Since I'm used to hearing and reading trivia and nonsense from the "Open Borders" bunch, I'm not surprised.
Hey, thanks for the kind words, Minnow. It doesn't Pee me off.
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DENNIS
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BigJohn....
I remember the instance, at least what was reported in our papers. If I can believe what I read, the Mexican government was less than cordial about
the mistake. They ranted and bellowed as though it was a mini-invasion. They made a lot of noise over it. Now...there was a good opportunity for
the United States to learn how to act when illegalities occur at the border. But....Nada.
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Dave
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Dumb, dumber and dumbest
A test:
Pretend that you're an employer. How many illegal immigrants would you mistakenly hire?
Anyone contributing to this thread want to say they couldn't figure out a way to tell the difference and admit to being really, really
stupid?
If so, you need to pay for the fence.
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MrBillM
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Employer Mistakes ?
Conducting an investigative report a couple of years back, Los Angeles Times reporters purchased false documents from a number of street sources
frequented by immigrants.
Although many of the Docs were very good, scrutinizing the original and comparing it with a legal version, it was possible each time to determine the
validity of the Doc.
The escape clause for the employer is that the law only requires him to maintain a photocopy of the documents proffered and it wasn't clear on the
photocopy that there was a problem.
I've done the same thing with photocopies where I've doctored a portion of a document. Keep playing with it until the change isn't clear.
I doubt very much that employers are making Mistakes in other than a very FEW cases. They know exactly what they're doing.
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