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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64859
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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Barry, see the web page of 'jide's ' Sierra Juarez Canyon photos including Carrizo hot springs at http://vivabaja.com/jide
Do a Nomad search for posts by jide to read his reports... Last I heard from Gerald Jide, was he was in Spain.
[Edited on 1-8-2008 by David K]
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HotSchott
Nomad
Posts: 156
Registered: 9-4-2003
Location: Sandy Eggo
Member Is Offline
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Wilderone, although your point is not lost on me, sadly most of the readily accessible sights were trashed long ago. The last time I visited
Rattlesnake canyon, someone had burned about half of the vegetation and there was broken glass all over the approach. Oddly, none of the really cool
petros had been damaged - I suspect the people that partied there didn't even realize what was in the rocks above their heads - hidden in plain sight.
As with so many of these sights, you can literally be right in front of them and in the wrong light they are virtually invisible. More to your point
however, I would strongly urge anyone from Nomads that has the desire, to find their way there and explore to their hearts content. I don't own a GPS
and could hardly give directions to anything to within a five mile guess!
These places are our heritage as Americans. All Americans, Norte and Sur. I have met very few Latinos with any interest in exploring Indian sites in
this area, there must be some people in Mexico that do have some interest. Lets just say it's not a huge priority for most of the folks I have met
down there. I feel some connection to both the desert in general and these places specifically. Maybe it is the Cherokee from my mom's side!
Barry, I'm not sure which hurricane Kathleen or Nora did the most damage to these canyons, but I know of several places 50 feet up canyon walls that
were completely washed into the desert by these storms. Places that I found rock climbing 25 years ago that are gone. Boulders the size of VW buses
were moved, so the pottery got tossed as well. I think it is all part of the process. Maybe the next storm will bury the broken glass and toilet
paper that is there now...Most pottery is found where people were walking from point A to B to C anyway. Remember these folks carried everything in
their hands, and on their backs and heads. Pots got dropped all over the desert!
There are hundreds of square miles of desert to explore out there. This is the best time of year to do it. The truth is that most people are not
going to walk more than a few feet from their SUV to see this stuff and 98% of the cool stuff is way off the roads. The sites that are protected from
the elements will be there for many years to come. The unprotected sites will melt back into the desert.
David, Boomer wants to know why you captured his soul on film. Val and I want to know how you actually got a pic with our clothes on...
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BAJACAT
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 2902
Registered: 11-21-2005
Location: NATIONAL CITY, CA
Member Is Offline
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Hotschott
| Quote: | Originally posted by HotSchott
Wilderone, although your point is not lost on me, sadly most of the readily accessible sights were trashed long ago. The last time I visited
Rattlesnake canyon, someone had burned about half of the vegetation and there was broken glass all over the approach. Oddly, none of the really cool
petros had been damaged - I suspect the people that partied there didn't even realize what was in the rocks above their heads - hidden in plain sight.
As with so many of these sights, you can literally be right in front of them and in the wrong light they are virtually invisible. More to your point
however, I would strongly urge anyone from Nomads that has the desire, to find their way there and explore to their hearts content. I don't own a GPS
and could hardly give directions to anything to within a five mile guess!
These places are our heritage as Americans. All Americans, Norte and Sur. I have met very few Latinos with any interest in exploring Indian sites in
this area, there must be some people in Mexico that do have some interest. Lets just say it's not a huge priority for most of the folks I have met
down there. I feel some connection to both the desert in general and these places specifically. Maybe it is the Cherokee from my mom's side!
Barry, I'm not sure which hurricane Kathleen or Nora did the most damage to these canyons, but I know of several places 50 feet up canyon walls that
were completely washed into the desert by these storms. Places that I found rock climbing 25 years ago that are gone. Boulders the size of VW buses
were moved, so the pottery got tossed as well. I think it is all part of the process. Maybe the next storm will bury the broken glass and toilet
paper that is there now...Most pottery is found where people were walking from point A to B to C anyway. Remember these folks carried everything in
their hands, and on their backs and heads. Pots got dropped all over the desert!
There are hundreds of square miles of desert to explore out there. This is the best time of year to do it. The truth is that most people are not
going to walk more than a few feet from their SUV to see this stuff and 98% of the cool stuff is way off the roads. The sites that are protected from
the elements will be there for many years to come. The unprotected sites will melt back into the desert.
David, Boomer wants to know why you captured his soul on film. Val and I want to know how you actually got a pic with our clothes on...
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Hotschott, Im latino and I appretiated Petroglyps,I have been to Palomar but could located the Petros ?,I
haven't seen any pictures from any nomads from this place.I seen them on a old Magazine...
BAJA IS WHAT YOU WANTED TO BE, FUN,DANGEROUS,INCREDIBLE, REMOTE, EXOTIC..JUST GO AND HAVE FUN.....
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BAJACAT
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 2902
Registered: 11-21-2005
Location: NATIONAL CITY, CA
Member Is Offline
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Palomar Petros
[Edited on 1-8-2008 by BAJACAT]
BAJA IS WHAT YOU WANTED TO BE, FUN,DANGEROUS,INCREDIBLE, REMOTE, EXOTIC..JUST GO AND HAVE FUN.....
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64859
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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BAJACAT you are a very special person who loves Baja... as we all do here on Nomad. I think just as many anglos (percentage-wise) as latinos don't
care about old grafitti on the rocks (pertoglyphs or pictographs)... In Baja, most of the locals are there because the land was available to them and
they wanted to make a living... and are not there because of the rich ancient history.
Hotschott, about the naked stuff: What goes on in Guadalupe Canyon, stays in Guadalupe Canyon! LOL
Tell Boomer to please not eat me and I will free his soul from my camera! 
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wilderone
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3825
Registered: 2-9-2004
Member Is Offline
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"..., but then few will ever see them. So, we are to be satisfied to "Just Know" that they are out there? without ever seeing them?? Maybe so, but
personally I think that is a shame."
Hike, explore, see, photograph, appreciate, publish photos, .. JUST DON'T PUT GPS POINTS ON THE INTERNET. If you're interested, you will also know
something about who created them, where they lived, why they lived there, and why they chose certain places to "mark". So knowing just a little
background that they exist in a place, generally, along with a photo perhaps, is plenty info for a rock art enthusiast. There are plenty of
resources to learn about sites - symposiums, workpapers- and plenty of undiscovered sites out there for you put all your sleuthing skills to use in
finding them. Ask discretely to those who know and you'll get more info if you're deserving. Off roading has become more popular due to the types of
vehicles that make these areas more accessible. Thus, it is even more important that rock art sites be protected. Map makers no longer put ruins
sites on most maps for the same reason. Yes, many well known, well publicized rock art sites have been trashed - that is just the point. No longer
is Mex. 1 a dirt road with few visitors. In the past 50 years - one generation - much rock art has been destroyed. I will maintain that providing GPS
coordinates to rock art sites on the internet is a no-no. By the way, I discovered a nice geoglyph between Mission San Borja and BOLA (the back way).
And a panel of pictos at San Fernando Mission - on the other side of the valley, a slight scramble out of the arroyo. If you're interested, you'll
find them.
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64859
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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| Quote: | Originally posted by wilderone
"..., but then few will ever see them. So, we are to be satisfied to "Just Know" that they are out there? without ever seeing them?? Maybe so, but
personally I think that is a shame."
Hike, explore, see, photograph, appreciate, publish photos, .. JUST DON'T PUT GPS POINTS ON THE INTERNET. If you're interested, you will also know
something about who created them, where they lived, why they lived there, and why they chose certain places to "mark". So knowing just a little
background that they exist in a place, generally, along with a photo perhaps, is plenty info for a rock art enthusiast. There are plenty of
resources to learn about sites - symposiums, workpapers- and plenty of undiscovered sites out there for you put all your sleuthing skills to use in
finding them. Ask discretely to those who know and you'll get more info if you're deserving. Off roading has become more popular due to the types of
vehicles that make these areas more accessible. Thus, it is even more important that rock art sites be protected. Map makers no longer put ruins
sites on most maps for the same reason. Yes, many well known, well publicized rock art sites have been trashed - that is just the point. No longer
is Mex. 1 a dirt road with few visitors. In the past 50 years - one generation - much rock art has been destroyed. I will maintain that providing GPS
coordinates to rock art sites on the internet is a no-no. By the way, I discovered a nice geoglyph between Mission San Borja and BOLA (the back way).
And a panel of pictos at San Fernando Mission - on the other side of the valley, a slight scramble out of the arroyo. If you're interested, you'll
find them. |
You do make it sound like GPS owners are to blame...
Do you think the kind of people who spray paint historic sites with grafitti are likely to spend $100 or more on a GPS, then read Baja Nomad to see
where they can go an mess up more stuff?
It has been my experience that the grafitti at sites, like Las Pintas or on the boulders anywhere is in Spanish bragging about love or when a family
was there on holiday.
Posting directions to a historic site here on Nomad allows those of us who love that sort of thing to see it BEFORE some family from Ensenada or
where-ever defaces it.
Not sharing with others who also have your values is not friendly and the memory will only be yours.
When Elizabeth and I found a site that I didn't know about before, I wanted my fellow Baja Nomads to have an opportunety to see it before it too was
lost by spray paint or destroyed by a rancher's bulldozer.
See 'Petroglyph Park' http://vivabaja.com/1105/page5.html
[Edited on 1-8-2008 by David K]
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64859
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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Juarez Canyons from 1967 Baja book
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64859
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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Zoom in
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wilderone
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3825
Registered: 2-9-2004
Member Is Offline
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Confidentiality is the norm.
http://mc2.vicnet.net.au/home/conserv/web/index.html
Note: “nondisclosure of sites” standard –
http://www.sierrarockart.org/bylaws.html
Note last paragraph:
http://groups.google.com/group/googleforeducators_googleinyo...
http://www.cabq.gov/aes/s5ares.html
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64859
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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Link 1 was for Australia, Link 2 was for Northern Calif., Link 3 Arizona and Link 4 New Mexico... nice links, but not addressing the MEXICAN sites, or
the education of Mexicans in the hope they gain respect for the petros....
I want the rock art sites to be preserved as much as you do Wilderone... but public intetrest in them is the best way make them valuable enough for
the Mexicans to keep them. You can't raise much public interest if the public doesnt know about them.
This is the same reason that Jack Swords and I have the BajaMissions web page with GPS directions... So the interested people can go there and enjoy
them and to show INAH there is a value to ALL the mission sites... not just the ones next to Hwy. 1 or still in operation.
I want to make a personal check to confirm, but it would seem that some rancher or ejido has destroyed the mission visita of San Juan de Dios...
because nobody cared enough to preserve it and its location was barely (if at all) mentioned in the guidebooks people use to tour Baja.
You see, when it is unknown nobody will miss it or have any reason to preserve it...
Make something known so people want to see it or save it, it then has value to more... including those that benefit from visitors, the local
population.
Baja Nomads and those that read this site are seeking things to see in Baja, to enjoy and to return with their children and others to also enjoy the
sites... Let them see them before they are lost because they were kept secret and destroyed by those who did not care.
Okay, that's my opinion.. I hope you see the logic in it. Keeping the sites secret has not halted the destruction reported on your non-Baja petro
links so I see a flaw in that logic.
BajaMissions
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BAJACAT
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 2902
Registered: 11-21-2005
Location: NATIONAL CITY, CA
Member Is Offline
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You guys are right, some people have no common sence,and in the other hand, spraypaint is sheaper that a GPS.
I took this pix in Laguna Hanson is the rock formation to the left on the side road that leads to the small waterfall
If you gys have a good eye you will know if the people that did this are locals or tourist's.
BAJA IS WHAT YOU WANTED TO BE, FUN,DANGEROUS,INCREDIBLE, REMOTE, EXOTIC..JUST GO AND HAVE FUN.....
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Roberto
Banned
Posts: 2162
Registered: 9-5-2003
Member Is Offline
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You mean the date, right?
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64859
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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I think so Roberto... The date proudly tells all when HF (Hector Flores?) was there!!!
The sad reality is that in 300 years, people will probably be admiring this 'rock art'!!!
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Barry A.
Select Nomad
Posts: 10007
Registered: 11-30-2003
Location: Redding, Northern CA
Member Is Offline
Mood: optimistic
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I have a tiny portable sand blaster out in the garage someplace-----maybe when (and if) I every go back to Laguna Hansen, and area, I will take it.
I HATE grafitti-------
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BAJACAT
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 2902
Registered: 11-21-2005
Location: NATIONAL CITY, CA
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Roberto
You mean the date, right? |
Yes Roberto they started with the day then the month then the year, if it was
somebody from the states it will be reading like this M/D/YR not D/M/YR
BAJA IS WHAT YOU WANTED TO BE, FUN,DANGEROUS,INCREDIBLE, REMOTE, EXOTIC..JUST GO AND HAVE FUN.....
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Ken Cooke
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8947
Registered: 2-9-2004
Location: Riverside, CA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Pole Line Road postponed due to injury
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All of this talk about canyons has me ready for some more Baja exploring! 
Me and the ORIGINAL Baja eXplorer! 
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64859
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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Map
On the Guadalupe Canyon web site is a map showing Rattlesnake Canyon (Vibora) and petro locations: http://guadalupe-canyon.com/graphics/MapTopo2006.gif
It is too big to post here without causing the page to distort...
[Edited on 1-11-2008 by David K]
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BAJACAT
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 2902
Registered: 11-21-2005
Location: NATIONAL CITY, CA
Member Is Offline
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If I remember right from the firts rock art site to cayon de la Vibora is about 3 miles +/-. Last time i was there, i was guide it by Rigo, Arturo's
son, didn't take any pix don't rember why? I got togo back soon.
BAJA IS WHAT YOU WANTED TO BE, FUN,DANGEROUS,INCREDIBLE, REMOTE, EXOTIC..JUST GO AND HAVE FUN.....
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Bug
Junior Nomad
Posts: 62
Registered: 11-12-2005
Location: San Felipe, Baja
Member Is Offline
Mood: Life can not get better than this!
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Thank you for all the help finding the Petroglyps. Would like to explore them soon too. I have heard that there is a pass from Guadalupe Canyon to
Laguna Hansen. Has anyone done this route before.
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