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Diver
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4729
Registered: 11-15-2004
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That video is what my dreams sound like!
Sometimes I have no idea what I'm saying but the words sound good. 
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Oso
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Location: on da border
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Remember South Pacific when the planter asked Nellie Forbush if she spoke French? Her answer was that she could conjugate some verbs. I
think it is entirely possible that someone with pure "book larnin" could pass this test and yet be unable to carry on a casual conversation with the
average Mexican.
All my childhood I wanted to be older. Now I\'m older and this chitn sucks.
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
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Grover:
You crack me up my man!
Once tried to find our way to the Palenque in a taxi. Didn't have the right polabras, so ended up scoring with " Donde es la Pollo Olympiad?" It
worked.
Iflyfish
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
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Registered: 10-17-2006
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None of us should feel bad about our Spanish. Trying is the main thing. Spanish is the second language for many Mexicans anyway and our efforts are
appreciated greatly.
Iflyfish
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sylens
Senior Nomad
Posts: 584
Registered: 4-6-2005
Location: Ensenada
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Mood: ando bajando
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subjunctive
in english,subjunctive is still used in the following form:
if i were _____ (not i was)
trouble is, most people no longer even use it there.
born in mexico and educated my first two years there (pre primaria y primer año) i am fairly fluent and guessed correctly i'd be intermediate II.
when i got to avanzado i only got 5. btw i took a few classes as undergrad in spanish also. this is one tough test. but i think it is an excellent
test. no tricks, as lencho says, just extremely demanding and well constructed imho.
thanks for the challenge, lencho.
also, it is funny how you worked to make it anonymous and we've all come out.
lili
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Roberto
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| Quote: | Originally posted by lencho
| Quote: | Originally posted by fdt
I am an Intermedio II.
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That is indicative of
the objective value of these tests.
My maid, native of BCS, intelligent and street smart lady who communicates in Spanish more fluently than I ever will, wouldn't pass the most basic
level.
--Larry |
So, what we're saying is the test is useless -- at least as far as gauging Spanish spoken in Mexico. I KNOW for a fact that Fernando and Oso are
fluent.
Now I don't feel so bad getting an Intermedio I.
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Roberto
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| Quote: | Originally posted by lencho
Never been, but I'd find it entertaining. A whole country full of lispers... |
Not true of course, but funny nonetheless.
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Roberto
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| Quote: | Originally posted by fdt
| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
at least I get the messsage across... most of the time! LOL
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That's because you pay in dollars 
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Roberto
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| Quote: |
I consider that test pretty good for what it is-- a quick written evaluation of formal Spanish knowledge. It's obviously not a definitive indicator of
communication competence. 
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Exactly -- useless.
Come on, when Fernando and Oso get less than a perfect score, what use is the test? Don't forget the Fernando is Mexican, and Oso is a certified
Mexican Court translator. Of course, they don't have whatever teaching certification you have. 
And in the context of knowing 100 words ... oh, never mind.
[Edited on 5-4-2008 by Roberto]
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Paula
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| Quote: | Originally posted by lencho
| Quote: | Originally posted by Roberto
So, what we're saying is the test is useless-- |
"We?"
I consider that test pretty good for what it is-- a quick written evaluation of formal Spanish knowledge. It's obviously not a definitive indicator
of communication competence.
--Larry |
Larry, I think the test would be more useful if it were all on one page. It's a good test, but I can see where a person might fail page 2 or 3, and
then go on to have more success on 4 or 5. Answering all of the questions would be a better indicator of skill level.
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Packoderm
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Registered: 11-7-2002
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8 out of 10. Not good - not bad.
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DENNIS
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Packoderm
8 out of 10. Not good - not bad. |
No.......That's good.
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
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Registered: 10-17-2006
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| Quote: | Originally posted by lencho
| Quote: | Originally posted by Roberto
Of course, they don't have whatever teaching certification you have.
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Huh? Why the aggression?
--Larry [/quote
How would you feel if you were a native speaker and took some test that ranked your language skills low? This is why I posted on the issue of fluency.
Everyone learns differently and this tests gets at more formal aspects of language acquisition. For many Mexicans Spanish is a second language.
Mexico, in my lifetime, has had 56 distinct language groups, only India has more with 58. I have met many Mexicans who have progressed no further than
the 3rd grade, yet they are proficient Spanish speakers. For many Mexicans Spanish is for them a second language and they have had to learn it with
out formal education in it as many of us do.
The examples of FDT and Roberto are object lessons to us in that they are native speakers who, if this were a valid test of language proficiency,
aught to blow the top off it.
My point is that as interesting and stimulating as this discussion is, there is real risk for someone taking this test to feel bad and defensive about
their language skills. None of us should feel bad about our Spanish Language skills. We all survive with the Spanish we have and are in an ongoing
process of learning. I happened to skip school the week they were teaching grammar and managed to acquire an advanced degree. Go figure!
Iflyfish |
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
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Lencho
This has been a very interesting and stimulating thread. I am glad that you started it. The issue of language acquisition and fluency is a complex
subject, one that I am learning something about as I read this thread.
I don't think that the test is useless, just designed for a specific purpose.
I believe you started this thread in response to Gull's rather inflamatory statement about how people with low or no Spanish Language skills should
stay home. There is much to be learned in this thread as to how limited this perspective really is. We all are in a process of learning Spanish, even
if we are not trying and are spending time in Mexico. First comes exposure, passive reception and then production, it is a process.
There is also the distinction to be made between formal language acquisition through academic training, with it's focus on grammar, and the sort of
immersion Spanish that many of us have had. One very soon must learn the word for toilet! and before that of course beer!
Thanks for this very interesting and stimulating thread.
Iflyfish
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Oso
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 2637
Registered: 8-29-2003
Location: on da border
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OK, first do I feel bad or defensive about flunking this test? No, not at all. Well, ok maybe I was in a short term petulant snit
But actually it reminded me that I would indeed like to study advanced Spanish grammar and literature. I've started Don Quijote and gotten
halfway through maybe a dozen times. There is never a good reason to stop learning new things.
On second thought, maybe I'll move to Suriname and learn Taki Taki. There are only 100 words in the entire language. (English has 250,000.)
Secondly, Roberto is a native Speaker of Italian. His Spanish is passable.
Thirdly, I am a Certified Court Interpreter for the California Superior Court system. There is a difference between an interpretor and a
translator. The exam for the certification was entirely oral, not written. When I worked for the courts in Sta. Barbara and San Luis Obispo
counties, I seldom or never interpreted for well educated people. Most of the time the defendants, victims and witnesses I worked with were migrant
farmworkers and I had to do simultaneous translations. That is I had to follow a few words behind, almost anticipating the next words and
understanding the street slang and regional dialects that they used. Occasionally I would be stumped. I remember once asking a defendant why he shot
a coworker. "Me hecho una carne", was his answer. I didn't think I should tell the judge and jury "he threw me a piece of meat", so I asked him to
explain. "Me dijo cabron." So, I said "he called me an SOB."
All my childhood I wanted to be older. Now I\'m older and this chitn sucks.
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Oso
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 2637
Registered: 8-29-2003
Location: on da border
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Mood: wait and see
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| Quote: | Originally posted by lencho
| Quote: | Originally posted by Oso
Thirdly, I am a Certified Court Interpreter for the California Superior Court system. |
And for the record, puts you next to God as far as I'm concerned. My mind just doesn't work that way. I think it has to do with compound vs coordinate bilingualism.
| Quote: | | "Me hecho una carne" |
Cool. You ever heard that elsewhere?
--Larry |
Nope, that was the one and only time.
Interesting article, now I need to learn to speak Shrink in order to understand it.
All my childhood I wanted to be older. Now I\'m older and this chitn sucks.
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Oso
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 2637
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Location: on da border
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Interesting! Very different with me. I go back and forth between the two all day with my wife and employees, sometimes switching in mid sentence,
sometimes throwing a word from one into the middle of a sentence in the other. Sometimes I'm not even aware of which one I'm speaking. BTW, I think
you mean Compound.
All my childhood I wanted to be older. Now I\'m older and this chitn sucks.
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Oso
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 2637
Registered: 8-29-2003
Location: on da border
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BTW, I went back and tried again and still didn't do any better.
The people I deal with every day just don't talk like that.
All my childhood I wanted to be older. Now I\'m older and this chitn sucks.
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Roberto
Banned
Posts: 2162
Registered: 9-5-2003
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| Quote: | Originally posted by lencho
Huh? Why the aggression?
--Larry |
You that there was aggression there? You must be a newbie to Nomad's.
Not intended -- just a healthy skepticism toward teaching credentials in general. Come from long experience with the California educational system, I
guess. 
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Roberto
Banned
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Registered: 9-5-2003
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| Quote: | Originally posted by lencho
BTW, I didn't realize Roberto's a native Spanish speaker. Roberto, where'd you grow up, anyway?
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Yup, I'm a native speaker, all right ... just not of Spanish.
You soy Italiano, compa. Born and bred. Moved to the U.S. at age 27, but grew up speaking two languages interchangeably (English and Italian) and a
few more (French, Spanish) only occasionally.
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