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oladulce
Super Nomad
Posts: 1625
Registered: 5-30-2005
Location: bcs
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Hi sierra-
1. You need to start with a Notario Publico, not the bank. The Notario is responsible for executing the propery title transfer, the official recording
of the new title, and payment of taxes associated with the sale. Nothing will happen without a Notario.
The Notario is the conductor of the transfer and will tell you what documents you will need. You don't have to be in Mexico to get the ball rolling
(or to complete most of the fide steps, for that matter).
How's your spanish? How about your legalese spanish? If yours is shakey, it's very helpful to find a Notario (or his secretary) who can speak some
english. Also important is to ask around for a Notario who either utilizes email or is available by phone when you call: very important if you'll be
doing alot of the steps from the US.
2. There are a few steps you can start on before you actually have the title, but the fideicomiso process won't progress very far until you have paid
for the property and the seller is ready to sign it over to you.
Stuff you can gather before the actual title transfer:
From your local municipio office:
1. Certificate of No liens/no taxes owed (means seller has paid up his property taxes etc).
2. Most recent property tax receipt from seller.
3. Yor need a doc from the Obras Publicas (public works) dept that describes if you have water and power to the lot.
4. You don't need a map, but you do need an "Avaluo Percial" which is a property appraisal by the local catastro office. This doc will have a
schematic (map?) of the propery on it. Be aware- these Avaluos are only good for 3 months so don't do it too early in the process.
There are Documents specific to your purchase of privatized ejido property. Becasue this is the first title transfer since the seller received his
parcel, you will need:
1. A copy of his "Titulo de Propiedad" (title).
This doc will have a stamp and signature of the "Delegado Del Regristro Agrario Nacional" and confirms that the proper steps were followed and the
title is registered with the local Agrarian office. This means that the seller now has the rights to this former ejido property. I would also ask for
a copy of the seller's "Derecho de Tanto" for your own records.
2. Sounds like the property may be classfied as "rustico" (outside of town, etc) and because this will be the first title transfer of his parcel
since he got title, you will need to have something called an "Avalou Bancaria" . This (besides being $$$ and a pain in the butt) is another type of
property apprasial which can only be done by special banks (ours was "BANOBRAS" ).
The bank will send out a guy who does a detailed survey of the property, takes photos, and compiles a detailed 20 page report with stuff like the
average railnfall, number of cows the property could support, types of plants, potential commercial value blah blah. This document took about 8-9
months for us to finally get so It's the first thing I would work on. It will be in the seller's name so you can get it before the sale is done.
I don't know what they do with it but it's a federal requirement that the state branch completes and it'll have some very important looking stamps on
it.
Ours took so dang long to finish that our local property appraisal "avalou" (above) kept expiring and we had to get 3-4 renewals of that one= more$$$.
Start researching what bank you want your Fide with so you can tell the Notario. The Notario will contact the bank for you.
You can get a fideicomiso on any size property - lots of misinformation on that one because of a law that changed a few years ago. It used to be that
any foreigner who bought property in the restricted zone would have an "investment clause" as a part of his fide. This has nothing to do with the
bank.
The bank/notario submits all your property purchase details to the Mexico City office of the Minister of Foreign Relations who will give their
approval of the sale. They have to approve before a fide can be done for you . A part of this "foreign relations permit" it's sometimes called, is an
"investment clause". Foreign Relations will give a dollar amount that you're supposed to invest in your property starting within 24 months of the
fide date. You'll pass out when you see the ridiculous amount they put on your permit. I won't go in to the enforcement (or lack of ) this
investment requirment cuz that's a whole nother issue.
All foreigner-purchased property used to require an investment clause in the fide . Now only property over 2000sq. meters has to have the clause. Yes
you can get a fide, and yes it will have and investment "requirement" because of the size of your lot.
You are allowed to purchase property and transfer title (in BCS at least) with an FMT tourist permit. Done it quite a few times. This is not the case
in all Mexican states. I won't get in to the fm3 debate because your head is probably spinning already.
It's frustrating trying to gather all the necessry info isn't it? Hope this helps to get you started.
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Pescador
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3587
Registered: 10-17-2002
Location: Baja California Sur
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Oladulce has the information down pat, but I still disagree on the size of a fideo and was told personally by the Notario in Santa Rosalia that the
1,999 sq meters did apply and that if you went over that you had two options, you could form a corporation and do development (this one is stickier
than in the past) or they would do the fideo for the 1,999 and you could hope no-one ever questioned the size of the property and followed the fence
lines.
If the seller does not have "escritura" then you have a major problem with privitizing ejido land and it may never happen, no matter what you have
been told. If you do not have a certificate from the Department of Agraria in La Paz or Mexico city, then you will have to go through all this when
you try to get a fideo. This is the biggest nightmare you can imagine. I have a property that had been privitized but the certificate was not in
effect and we had to go through that process anyway. I would suggest that you google search "buying ejido land" to educate yourself in ejido
privitization. The good people of Punta Banda should have done the same thing.
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oladulce
Super Nomad
Posts: 1625
Registered: 5-30-2005
Location: bcs
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I see you've mentioned your remote location so I'll suggest that you hire somebody to help you get your fide. You can collect many of the necessary
docs yourself but it will be very time consuming!
As a fellow fringe-dweller, I can tell you that the onsite inspections that have to be done by govt officals will take forever to accomplish when they
have to drive long distances to get to your property. It will help to have somebody either calling to prod them (in Spanish) or dropping by their
office frequently to get them to come out.
Also factor in to your budget, the cost of "incentives" you'll probably need to pay to get these guys to come out and do their job because of your
location. These aren't mandatory but often paying a little to motivate a guy to visit your property can save you money in the long run by preventing
the process from dragging on and on.
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DENNIS
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 29510
Registered: 9-2-2006
Location: Punta Banda
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Hasen't anybody won that Ballena yet?
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oladulce
Super Nomad
Posts: 1625
Registered: 5-30-2005
Location: bcs
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Scary how different the info can be, isn't it Pescador.
We have 2 adjoining lots and each is 5000sq meters and both have a fideicomiso (with different banks).
We're going to combine the lots back to the original 10,000 sq meter, single property and the bank rep and La Paz notario said no problem combining
the 2 in to one fide .The size of the property was never questioned during any of the applications.
Our oceanfront lot has a different investment requirement than the lot behind it (a difference of $100,000 dollars) for the same size piece of dirt
with the same rocks and stickers, all out in the boonies without water, power etc . I have no idea how the Sec. of Foreign Relations office determines
one's investment requirement from over in Mexico City. Do they even look at a map or just pull numbers out of a hat?
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Pescador
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3587
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Location: Baja California Sur
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Had an acquaintence who got a fideo from Guille Santillan in Santa Rosalia and the size was over the 1999 sq. meters and they just chopped it down to
that size and figured that fence was moved by agreement and that it would all work out in the long run.
So you are saying they allowed you more than that size as long as you developed the area with a minimum investment of development. Guess that is
another way to build up the economy in outlying areas. It probably also means that with enough connections you can change the law to pretty much
whatever you want to.   
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comitan
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4177
Registered: 3-27-2004
Location: La Paz
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Mood: mellow
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In Comitan we have several properties that people bought 1500M lots back to back, the second lot was fused is the terminology that was used.
Strive For The Ideal, But Deal With What\'s Real.
Every day is a new day, better than the day before.(from some song)
Lord, Keep your arm around my shoulder and your hand over my mouth.
“The sincere pursuit of truth requires you to entertain the possibility that everything you believe to be true may in fact be false”
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highsierrabum
Newbie
Posts: 21
Registered: 5-17-2008
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congratulations to Oladulce
you win a virtual
ICE COLD
32 OUNCE
Pacifico Ballena
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/ \
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that's some great info and I am copying it down and will use it to further my investigations....One thing I'm a bit confused about is that I've been
told to never, under any circumstances, pay the total amount for the property until all the paperwork is finished, literally holding the fidei in your
hand....so to me it seems that the sellers ought to be fine with me verbally telling them that I'm ready to pay the total and that they will receive
the total when the paperwork is finished.
Another thing. You mention that this is the first transfer of title for the seller, but there have been several other sales with completed paperwork,
including two corporations and one fideicomiso....so perhaps much of this difficult paperwork has already been completed and the seller has it ready.
Also, I have heard before about this Derecho de Tanto....and there is already a copy ready...a big sale was just completed and the entire family went
to Ensenada to sign for it....so this leads me to believe that some of the time consuming paperwork stuff has already been done.
The terreno is "rustico" --that is how it is described on the official receipt...It is at puerto San Andres (aka "Alejandros") just several miles
north of the nicest paved road in all Baja.....the new strip into Santa Rosaliita for the sand filled marina.....so it shouldn't be too hard to get
some stuff done there I guess.....
but yes, my head is spinning....
Thank You so much oladulce for concise, straightforward info.....and really, some time in the future, if we're there, up on our hill behind
Alejandros, there'll be a cold one waitin' for ya....
----cheers
-dave
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highsierrabum
Newbie
Posts: 21
Registered: 5-17-2008
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thanks oladulce
i tried to edit my ballena image but boy did that not work...
here's another attempt
congratulations to Oladulce
you win a virtual
ICE COLD
32 OUNCE
Pacifico Ballena
.....|.|
..../...\
...|.....|
...|.....|
...|___|
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Marla Daily
Nomad
Posts: 418
Registered: 9-2-2003
Location: Loreto, BCS
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REQUIRED INVESTMENT ON LARGE PROPERTIES
Today I received from a Mexican laywer in Loreto the Federal Regulations for Investment on Properties larger than 2000 meters square. "Relacion
tabulador de monto de carta compromiso" states that within TWO YEARS the following applies on properties larger than 2000 square meters for a
Fideicomiso:
Land Size/Square Meters Amount to be Spent on Development in Two Years
2001-3000 $250,000 USD
3001-4000 $300,000 USD
4001-5000 $350,000 USD
5001-6000 $400,000 USD
6001-7000 $450,000 USD
7001-8000 $500,000 USD
8001-9000 $550,000 USD
9001-10,000 $600,000 USD
10,001-11,000 $650,000 USD
11,001-12,000 $700,000 USD
The table is progressive and continues using the same formula.
Since I introduced the concept of land more than 2000 sq. meters,
I felt responsible for providing the facts—
(And I don't like beer anyway—sorry).
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oladulce
Super Nomad
Posts: 1625
Registered: 5-30-2005
Location: bcs
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| Quote: | quote]Originally posted by highsierrabum
Another thing. You mention that this is the first transfer of title for the seller, but there have been several other sales with completed paperwork,
including two corporations and one fideicomiso....so perhaps much of this difficult paperwork has already been completed and the seller has it ready.
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Sorry, I don't think I explained this very well. Are you the first one to buy YOUR lot from the Ejido member since he received his
title for this "privatized ejido land? It sounds like he may have subdivided his parcel in to a few lots and you will be buying one of them (?)
The Avalou Bancaria is a Federal govt valuation appraisal for land that will undergo a "change of use". For example, ours had been zoned
"Agropecuraria" (agricultural) when it was ejido property and once the parcels were privatized the govt. re-zoned our area as “residential tourist”.
Maybe your seller did this appraisal when he got his title, but chances are you, the gringo, will be footing the bill for this as usual. I don’t
understand it completely and maybe somebody else knows more about it, but this appraisal was required for our fideicomiso. It was not required for our
front lot purchase (2004), but it was on the back portion (2006) so it’s fairly new and your notario will let you know.
Thanks Marla for the investment requirement table. So there is an official formula they use to decide how much you're supposed to spend.
Interesting because both of our lots are the exact same 5000 sq meter size, but one fide has a $450,000 investment requirement and the other is
$350,000 so the Foreign Relations Secretary must have read their own table incorrectly. 
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Marla Daily
Nomad
Posts: 418
Registered: 9-2-2003
Location: Loreto, BCS
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INVESTMENT REQUIREMENT/PROFEPA
HOLA OLA DULCE et al,
I would go and ask the bank why the amount of investment required on the front lot has an extra $100,000 tacked on to it! Perhaps the bank did that.
Is the annual fee you pay on each fideicomiso the same amount? Is it tied to the value of the property or is it a set annual fee with a built in
inflation clause.
Another tidbit we were told by the attorney yesterday is that there is no such thing as a corporation whose purpose is to preserve land, native
species or the environment. We discussed how lamentable it is that on one hand development is required (land clearing to build), and on the other,
PROFEPA (at least in Loreto) runs around fining people for doing just that! PROFEPA inspection fees and permit are exorbitant, and the multa over the
top for any clearing without a permit (as in $10,000 USD!)
We have 15,800 square meters of beachfront land—pristine desert with fabulous elephant trees, jojoba, etc.—we would like to preserve FROM development,
yet it appears we are legally unable to do so. Instead, the law "requires" $900,000 USD in construction on the land! Go figure!
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Bob and jane
Nomad
Posts: 272
Registered: 3-25-2004
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highsierrabum:
We camped at Alejandro's for several days on our way to Loreto two years ago. A guy named David found us wandering around Sta. Rosalallita and led
us to the camp. We had a great casita with concrete steps leading to the beach. Sandra and George were camped next to us. Have they finished their
house on the hill? They were laying the block walls themselves. They gave us a tour and we shared a number of beers. Say hi to them from Bob and
Marilyn if they are still there. We had a great time. It was hard to leave. Always think we'll get back there.
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elizabeth
Senior Nomad
Posts: 742
Registered: 7-30-2004
Location: Loreto, BCS
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Marla, thanks for the table. It is consistent with what I'm being told.
Oladulce, you definitely laid out the steps to privatization and fideicomiso well and in understandable terms...
the best advice I think everyone is giving is that the most important part is first finding a notario to work with.
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oladulce
Super Nomad
Posts: 1625
Registered: 5-30-2005
Location: bcs
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Marla Daily
... We discussed how lamentable it is that on one hand development is required (land clearing to build), and on the other, PROFEPA (at least in
Loreto) runs around fining people for doing just that!
We have 15,800 square meters of beachfront land—pristine desert with fabulous elephant trees, jojoba, etc.—we would like to preserve FROM development,
yet it appears we are legally unable to do so. Instead, the law "requires" $900,000 USD in construction on the land! Go figure!
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Oh Marla, I could use one of those smiley faced things who's rolling her eyes and shaking her head.
I haven't sat back and looked at the whole silly picture before and you're absolutely right! For SEMARNAT/PROFEPA we tried to make it look like we
had a very small footprint of building on our lot and went around propping up little cholla the tractor had knocked over during construction to
minimize the "damage" we'd inflicted on our environment.
But If we ever have to defend the amount of investment we've made to the Secretario de Relaciones Exteriores, we'll have to
make the casita appear like a very grandiose hacienda with all the receipts (got a file for those already) and very expensive unseen building costs
like material transportation (oh wait, at $600 per dump truck of gravel, that part is true!).
I was going to mention all this in the current "Top ten scams in Baja?" thread, but Oldlady summed it up nicely on that thread with her comment
"anything having to do with building a home" is a scam.
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Gadget
Senior Nomad
Posts: 851
Registered: 9-10-2006
Location: Point Loma CA
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Mood: Blessed with another day
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Lots of good info. A Notary we talked to told us to always log outside info in the maybe file, until you actually sit down across the desk from
someone. Then you better be very certain the info you get from them is acurate before you sign anything.
This board is a great start to doing "do diligence", but I would always consider it just the footing trenches to the foundation of any info.
And that table you posted Marla, yikes!
So much for building a nice little hideaway somewhere on a 2000+ meter lot.
That alone, if I ever do purchase a lot, will keep us under 2000 sqmtr or split larger into 2 lots.
Oh, that was another thing, property line set backs. If you do combine 2 lots or split a bigger one you can't center any structure over the dividing
property line.
Always something, huh?
"Mankind will not be judged by their faults, but by the direction of their lives." Leo Giovinetti
See you in Baja
http://www.LocosMocos.com
Gadget |
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bajabeachbabe
Nomad
Posts: 150
Registered: 9-11-2006
Location: Loreto,
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Corporation?
The other side of the Fideicomiso coin is to create a corporation. When we purchased our property we were advised by the real estate agency that a
corporation was a better alternative due to the size of our lot(s) and specifically the investment requirement. The inital cost of creating the
corporation was possibly greater than a Fideicomiso, but it gives us much more flexibiliity. With a corporation you need to have a business purpose,
but our plans always included at least a couple rental cabanas on our lot. We will have monthly accountant fees for reporting, but we won't have
trust fees to pay to the bank. I think for us, the corporation will be a better choice, especially considering each of our two lots are about 10,000
sq meters.
Marla, (Hi neighbor, Linda here) that is one scary "required investment" schedule you posted! At least with the corporation we can invest what we
want, when we want. Plus, we have the option of having a business doing just about anything other than running a fishing boat.
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oladulce
Super Nomad
Posts: 1625
Registered: 5-30-2005
Location: bcs
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| Quote: | Originally posted by highsierrabum
....One thing I'm a bit confused about is that I've been told to never, under any circumstances, pay the total amount for the property until all the
paperwork is finished, literally holding the fidei in your hand.... |
highsierrabum-
When your fide is complete, the Notario will have the seller come to his office to sign and at this point he'll be relinguishing his rights to the
property. This is when we have always made the final payment to the seller. Sometimes we've been at the notario's office to sign at the same time as
the seller, and other times we've given a power of attorney for our signatures ahead of time.
When we haven't been able to get down there for the final signing, the final payment was wired to the Notario so the seller could leave the office
with his money.
But even if you make your final payment at the fide signing, you won't walk out of the office with the final doc in your hands because the Notario has
a few more very important steps to do with it.
The Notario will deliver to the catastro office the "Transfer tax" you'll be paying him and he'll take the fideicomiso doc to the Ministro Publico
(public records) office so the deed can be registered in your(and the bank's) names. You'll get the most important stamps on your fide in these steps
and he needs to bring the original copy with him to do so.
It's taken anywhere from 2 weeks to 2 months after we made the final payment for us to have our original fide copy in our hands on various purchases.
You can have the seller write a receipt when you give him the final payment so you leave the office with someting after handing over your life's
savings.
And muchas gracias, I love cerveza.
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highsierrabum
Newbie
Posts: 21
Registered: 5-17-2008
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in reply to a couple things
bob and jane:
yes george and sandra are there with a great little house. george just finished the livingroom tile this spring, and has little rocks up all over the
outside to help it blend in, as well as a rad beach/arroyo stone patio. They've even got an indoor shower and toilet believe it or not, it's a real
house now. we had a good winter hanging out with those two....saw the David you mention...he used to be sort of Camp Counselor of Alejandros but had
a recent relationship with a woman who guides sea kayaking near Loreto and was busy doing that before they even more recently split up and now who
know's where he is......
the palapa with the steps down to the beach is a design idea / feeling that I want to mimic up on our hill about a kilometer back in the first range
of hills....and open place with just one small enclosure.
and in response to everything else....I just began emailing a lawyer contact in Ensenada that the seller had given me originally to help me get my FM3
but she as well as others here told me that I do not need my FM3 for a fideicomiso, and she does fideicomisos, so perhaps I will be able to go through
her, since she is a trusted contact of the seller's family, and has been doing some of the other sales that have occured in the area. once again, we
aren't the first to buy here so that initial stuff I believe has all been done already. I think I remember hearing that the ranchers actually lost
money on their first sale because they didn't realize themselves all the things they'd have to do to be able to sell property....
anyways, thanks everyone for your info. between what you've written and what I can find out from this contact in Ensenada, I think I'll be set, just
trying to get a clear idea in my head of the process, the timeframe, how what when where....and I think it's starting to get clearer.....
thanks again folks
---dave
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Gadget
Senior Nomad
Posts: 851
Registered: 9-10-2006
Location: Point Loma CA
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Bajabeachbabe, I am pretty sure you can only do something through your corporation that does not take a job away from a Local.
Am I wrong anyone?
And highsierrabum, as per the info my in-laws have gathered who are in BoLA, there is no fideicomiso process in BCN. As the Diaz family start to sell
of their land everyone is having to form corporations to buy.
Or am I wrong again and it is just in BoLA?
"Mankind will not be judged by their faults, but by the direction of their lives." Leo Giovinetti
See you in Baja
http://www.LocosMocos.com
Gadget |
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