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Cypress
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7641
Registered: 3-12-2006
Location: on the bayou
Member Is Offline
Mood: undecided
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Don Alley, A fisherman speaks!  That's what I'd call "telling it like it is". You
just cut through the BS and got down to the facts. I respect your wisdom and
honesty. Thanks.
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
Member Is Offline
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Greed is human and there needs to be some way of interfering with it or this is what happens. There is a greater good that requires attention.
Human beings are genocidal and will, without some limits and sanctions over use and destroy any enviornment they occupy.
Even the mythical Native Americans occupied a place till it was used up and then moved or disappeared. There simply was enough territory till the
white man encroached to support this way of living.
The Haida slaved all the way from the Queen Charlotte Islands to San Francisco Bay. Human beings are not very idealistic, or altruistic, never have
been and never will be. History repeats itself here in Baja. Those who do not learn from history are bound to repeat it. This is not patronization, it
is a truism.
Maintainance of the public wheel is all of our responsibility. To the degree that we look aside, or in one of the posts above actually support this
sort of short sighted exploitation, we carry the cargo for it.
Iflyfishandamdeeplysaddenedbythisvideo
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tsgarcia69
Banned
Posts: 45
Registered: 8-11-2008
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Don Alley
Nonsense.
The standard of living there has risen dramatically recently, and there are help wanted signs all over town. So much work that they are importing
workers from the mainland.
The idea that these people MUST devastate the fishery to eat is just plain ignorant. They are doing it to sell to the fish markets for cash.
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Hey, Don it's really good to know that the standard of living has risen. However, I must point out that saying that something has risen is a
relativistic term, not an absolute term. Poverty is more of an absolute concept. It's kind of like saying it has gotten warmer when the
temperature rises from -10 degrees to -5 degrees. It is true, but it is still cold. If you would care to point out some facts to make your point, it
would be helpful. Let me point out some facts about Mexico that you may not be aware of:
The bottom 40% of the population share only 11% of the wealth and are considered to live below the Mexican poverty line. The Mexican standard of
living is way below the US or Europe. There is little or no state welfare and no unemployment benefits. Mexico is one of the 4 worst countries in
Latin America for income distribution. 40% of the population is unemployed or underemployed. Income per capita is $7,830 in Mexico, compared to about
$26,000 in the US.
Perhaps YOU think that overfishing to eat is ignorant. Perhaps your analysis is a little too simplistic. Selling fish for cash raises money to buy
things you cannot eat, such as clothes and medicine and doctors bills.
It is nice to know that are so many help wanted signs out. Did you ever stop to consider why? Is it because the cost to live down there is so high
relative to the minimum wage that a Mexican can earn that it makes no sense to move there? If that were not the case, then the US could just buy every
illegal alien in the US a bus ticket to La Paz and solve two problems at once. But that's not happening Don, is it?
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Cypress
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7641
Registered: 3-12-2006
Location: on the bayou
Member Is Offline
Mood: undecided
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tsgarcia69, Your old blame game is old, moldy, rancid and poison. The fish will be
gone. Ever heard the storey of the "Golden Goose"?If things continue, gill nets, hookas', etc., a can of sardines will be considered seafood down
along the Sea of Cortez.
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wilderone
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3824
Registered: 2-9-2004
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It's easy to be indignant when your belly is full. But when you live in a poor country and all you can muster to eat each day is 1,000 calories when
your body need 2,000, your view of the world gets very "shortsighted"; like in "where's my next meal?"
I have never actually seen this situation. Have you? Baja CA is not the isolated outpost it was in the 70's.
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tsgarcia69
Banned
Posts: 45
Registered: 8-11-2008
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by wilderone
I have never actually seen this situation. Have you? Baja CA is not the isolated outpost it was in the 70's. |
Good point, wilderone. I've also never given birth, so I suppose I have no right to discuss abortion. Nor have I done drugs, so I suppose I have no
right to discuss illegal drugs. By the way, it's good to hear that Baja is not the isolated outpost it was in the 70's. I'll bet you'll be happy to
hear the most of the commercial fishing fleet in the Sea of Cortez is based out of Sinaloa and Sonora on the mainland, not Baja. That may be relevant
to some future conversation you may want to partake in.
By the way, speaking of your post about joining conservation groups and getting involved, I want you to know that I do not eat fish, not any.
Actually, I do not eat any seafood at all. Nobody is making any money off of me by overfishing. So, if you really want to put your mouth where your
money is, you should all just follow my example and stop eating fish.
And no, I did not say that backwards.
Is asking you to make a personal sacrifice to save the fisheries too much? Or does your involvement end with a stirring call to arms on a message
board?
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wilderone
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3824
Registered: 2-9-2004
Member Is Offline
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1. You have no right to tell women what they should or should not do with their bodies. How many unwanted children have you adopted?
2. If you don't know all the facts of what you're opining about, then maybe your input is feckless.
3. Commercial fishing is out of the mainland? That's not what we're talking about. The point was that it is a mistaken concept that there are poor
Baja families stripping the Gulf of CA of its bounty to feed their familes, and that somehow overfishing, gill netting, etc. is then ok. Sustenance
fishing has never been a problem.
4. Again, proper fisheries management and conversation will enable those who do eat fish to continue to eat fish. Baja CA has a long way to go to
establish and monitor fishing conservation guidelines. Although there are laws, they are not enforced. There are organizations and other countries'
fisheries problems which have been addressed all over the world and improvement has been made on many fronts. The Gulf of CA has been exploited for
too long.
5. You don't eat fish, so that's your contribution to the SOLUTION? Well congratulations on your big sacrifice and involvement.
6. I contributed money to the Billfish Foundation to fight the new longline shark fishing laws (which was halted by the way - because of the outcry
from not only local Baja fishermen, but pressure from the US as well). I forwarded the video to a freelance writer who is currently researching a
story on the "old Baja" recreational fishing days, and a businesswoman who works for a fishing resort on the East Cape. I don't spearfish. I don't
catch 45 yellowtail per day just for fun. I don't catch and release a half-dead, traumatized fish back into the sea. I buy fishing permits, tip
pangueros enough to feed their families for a week, and make purchases all up and down the peninsula when I travel in Baja - unlike many people
driving motorhomes who bring everything with them and never indulge the local economy.
7. If you haven't noticed, Mex. 1 has heavy traffic night and day - and most retail establishments all up and down Mex. 1 benefit from those
in-country. Opportunities abound for those in coastal towns to feed their families.
8. "Is asking you to make a personal sacrifice to save the fisheries too much? Or does your involvement end with a stirring call to arms on a message
board?" Nonsense. And I reiterate my call to arms to persist to spread the word to those who can actually DO something, because self-rightous
proclamations of "I don't eat fish" just ain't gonna do it.
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wilderone
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3824
Registered: 2-9-2004
Member Is Offline
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And thank you for the inspiration - I've forwarded the video to every email address on this list with my personal comments:
http://www.mexicanlaws.com/?gclid=CPbt49zbmZMCFRDNiQodJRtIsA
Sr. Arturo Martinez Esquer is the newly appointed "deputy director of visitor assistance" in Tijuana located at Via de la Juventud No. 8800-2523,
Centro Comercial Viva Tijuana. He can be reached at 011 52 (664) 973-0424 and 973-0430, or amartineze@baja.gob.mx.
Edmund Burke once said, “The only thing it takes for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing.”
Teresa Matamoros
Marketing Director
Baja California State Tourism Secretariat
Lic. María Teresa Matamoros Montes
Directora de Mercadotecnia
SECRETARIA DE TURISMO DEL ESTADO DE BAJA CALIFORNIA
Tels. (664) 634-6330 / 634-6574 Fax 634-7157
BAJA CALIFORNIA EL MAGICO NORTE DE LA PENINSULA
www.descubrebajacalifornia.com
www.discoverbajacalifornia.com
Baja California State Tourism Office
Secretary of Tourism
011-52-664-634-6330, -634-6918 or -634-6574
Web site: www.turismobc.gob.mx
E-mail: infotur@baja.gov.mx
RESIDENCIA OFICIAL DE LOS PINOS
COL. SAN MIGUEL CHAPULTEPEC
11850 MEXICO D.F.
MEXICO D.F.
EMAIL : ciudadano@presidencia.gob.mx
Mr. VICTOR LICHTINGER
SECRETARIA DEL MEDIO AMBIENTE Y RECURSOS NATURALES (SEMARNAT)
PERIFERICO SUR 4209
COL. JARDINES DE LA MONTAÑA
TLALPAN
14210 MEXICO D.F. MEXICO
EMAIL: vlichtinger@semarnat.gob.mx
*****************************************
* Grupo de los Cien Internacional, A.C. *
Apartado Postal 41-523
Col. Virreyes
* Mexico D.F. 11001, Mexico *
* Fax (525)520-3577 *
<grupo100@laneta.apc.org>
FONATUR:
MISION
“Participar en la consolidación del desarrollo sustentable del país, a través del fomento de la actividad turística nacional”.
John McCarthy
FONDO NACIONAL DE FOMENTO AL TURISMO
Tecoyotitla No. 100
Col. Florida C.P. 01030 México D.F.
Tel.: 54 - 48 - 42 - 00
____________________________
SECRETARÍA DE TURISMO
Av. Presidente Masaryk No. 172, Col. Chapultepec Morales,
C.P. 11587, México, Distrito Federal.
Teléfono: (55) 3002-6300
____________________
International Community Foundation., foundation president Richard Kiy:
Established in 1990, ICF is a public charity working to foster lasting philanthropy to benefit under-served communities throughout the Americas and
Asia. With over 70% of ICF’s recent grantmaking benefiting charitable causes along the Baja California peninsula, ICF is committed to assisting US.
donors with charitable giving needs from Tijuana to Los Cabos.
For individual donors wishing to make a difference in Mexico, ICF also offers a reliable and efficient tax-deductible vehicle without being subject to
the restrictions set forth in the 1996 U.S.-Mexico Tax Treaty which stipulates that tax-deductible individual giving in Mexico be limited to one’s
Mexican-sourced income.
International Community Foundation
11300 Sorrento Valley Road, Ste. 115
San Diego, CA 92121
Office: (858) 677-2913 Fax: (858) 677-2918
renetta@icfdn.org
____________________
Pro Peninsula
P.O. Box 7175 San Diego, CA 92167
Tel: (619) 723-0700 Fax: (619) 374-7162
Email: info@propeninsula.org
_______________________
The Secretariat of Environment and Natural Resources (Secretaría del Medio Ambiente y Recursos Naturales, SEMARNAT) is a government agency whose main
purpose is to create a State environmental protection policy reversing the tendencies of ecological deterioration and establishing the bases for a
sustainable development in the country.
The generation of scientific and technical information on environmental issues and the training of human resources, in order to inform society,
support decision making, encourage the protection of the environment, promote the sustainable use of natural resources, and support the Secretary of
the Environment and Natural Resources in reaching its goals.
SEMARNAP - Raúl Marcó del Pont Lalli. Dirección de Publicaciones.
Instituto Nacional de Ecología
Periférico sur 5000, Col. Insurgentes Cuicuilco
Deleg. Coyoacán, C.P. 04530
Tel.: (55) 54 24 64 35, fax: (55) 54 24 52 41
E-mail: pmarco@ine.gob.mx
______________________
PROFEPA:
Mission:
Contain the destruction of our natural resources and to revert the processes of environmental deterioration.
Ensure the unrestricted access to society to the duty of doing environmental justice in a prompt manner.
Involve Society and its organizations in the surveillance and induction of the compliance with environmental law. Society and its organizations must
be informed and have a responsible participation.
Strengthen the presence of the Attorney General for Environmental Protection and to extend its territorial coverage, with a federalist criteria.
Construct an efficient and modern institution, under criteria of honesty, transparency and trustworthiness, transmitting a new image to society.
Corrently Mr. Luege is the Attorney General for Environmental Protection, at the ministry of environment and National Resources
Address: La Ley al Servicio de la Naturaleza®. México D.F. 2002. Derechos Reservados. Desarrollado por
Kiven S.C.
Federal attorney for environmental protection:
Edificio AJUSCO
Carretera Picacho-Ajusco 200
Col. Jardines en la Montaña
Deleg. Tlalpan, C.P. 14210, México D.F.
tel. 54-49-63-00
De cualquier parte de la República marque sin costo al teléfono
01-800-77-033-72
01-800-77-033-72
pfpaweb@correo.profepa.gob.mx
________________________________
Presidente Vincente Fox
c/o Mexican Consulate
1549 India, San Diego, CA 92101
___________________
WiLDCOAST is an international conservation team dedicated to preserving endangered marine species and threatened coastal wildlands of the Californias.
Through community-based conservation, we work to eliminate threats to ecosystems and to develop reserves to permanently protect sensitive areas. Our
partnerships with local people, governments, and nonprofit organizations are critical to the successful recovery of imperiled species and the defense
of their coastal habitats.
WiLDCOAST
925 Seacoast Drive
Imperial Beach, CA 91932
Phone: (619) 423-8665
Fax: (619) 423-8488
Email: info@wildcoast.net
____________________
Nature Conservancy:
Our Mission
To preserve the plants, animals and natural communities that represent the diversity of life on Earth by protecting the lands and waters they need to
survive
Worldwide Office
The Nature Conservancy
4245 North Fairfax Drive, Suite 100
Arlington, VA 22203-1606
Southern Baja California Program
Calle Alvaro Obregón #460 Of. 206
Colonia Centro
La Paz, Baja California Sur 23000
Mexico
(52) 612 125-9444
California Field Office
201 Mission Street
4th Floor
San Francisco, CA 94105
(415) 777-0487
calweb@tnc.org
_______________________
Pronatura A. C
What they do: Los seres humanos, al igual que todas las especies que pueblan la Tierra, nuestro planeta, formamos parte del rico espectro de la vida,
del cual dependemos para sobrevivir: los ecosistemas naturales nos proporcionan alimentos, medicinas, agua, oxígeno y diversas materias primas.
El mundo vivo está lleno de belleza natural y es extraordinariamente diverso. La Tierra es nuestra casa, pero también el hogar de millones de especies
que han evolucionado junto con nosotros en todos los ecosistemas del mundo. De su funcionamiento adecuado depende el equilibrio planetario.
Aspérgulas N° 22 (antes Pino)
Col. San Clemente, C. P. 01740, México, D.F.
Tel./fax (55) 5635-5054
pronatura@pronatura.org.mx
www.pronatura.org.mx
CONANP:
Alfredo Zavala Gonzáález, oversees protection of the Sea of Cortez islands for Mexico's National Commission of Protected Areas
Qué es la CONANP?
La Comisión Nacional de Áreas Naturales Protegidas, Conanp es un órgano desconcentrado de la Secretaría de Medio Ambiente y Recursos Naturales, la
Comisión está a cargo de la administración de las Áreas Naturales Protegidas, uno de los instrumentos básicos de la política de conservación de la
biodiversidad, tambien es responsable de instrumentar los Programas de Desarrollo Regional Sustentable no sólo en Áreas Naturales Protegidas sino en
otras Regiones Prioritarias para la Conservación que no cuenten con un decreto de proteción.
Dirección General de Manejo para la Conservación
Subdirección de Análisis de Información Espacial
Camino al Ajusco #200, Col. Jardínes en la Montaña, Delegación Tlalpan, México, Distrito Federal, Código Postal 14210,
Conmutador +52 555449 6300, Correo electrónico info@conanp.gob.mx
¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬
MEXIDATA@IX.netcom.com
Barnard R. Thompson
MIRA
PO Box 33782
San Diego CA 92163
Barnard Thompson has spent more than 40 years in Mexico and Latin America, providing consulting, business, governmental affairs, facilitation,
lobbying and problem resolution services for a variety of multinational clients. A free-lance writer and columnist, his commentary and op-ed pieces
on Mexico and Mexican affairs, U.S.A.-Mexico relations, the NAFTA, and other Latin American subjects and issues have appeared in publications
worldwide.
___________________
Investigacion y Conservacion de Mamiferos Marinos de Ensenada, A.C., to evaluate the environmental impact of fishing and boat traffic on whales and
dolphins and start an environmental education program.
Pro Esteros, Lagunas y Marismas de las Californias, A.C., to help protect the Mona Estuary at Bahia de los Angeles.
________________
Loreto Tourism Office:
Email: fomixlor@lapaz.cromwell.com.mx
________________________
Melissa Paxton,
Director of Environmental Affairs,
Baja Life Magazine
melpax@hotmail.com
Arturo Martínez Esquer
Deputy Director of Visitor Assistance
State Secretariat of Tourism of Baja California
(011 52 664) 973 0424 & (011 52 664) 973 0430
www.discoverbajacalifornia.com
• CENTRO INAH BAJA CALIFORNIA SUR
• AV. 16 DE SEPTIEMBRE No. 152
• LA PAZ, BAJA CALIFORNIA SUR (MÉXICO) CP 23000
• TEL-FAX 91 (112) 2 73 89
• INAH - SAN IGNACIO, B.C.S.
• EN EL COMPLEJO MISIONAL
• TEL-FAX 91 (115) 4 02 22
______________________
http://www.todossantos.cc/econews.html
Do something
__________________________
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tripledigitken
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4848
Registered: 9-27-2006
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by wilderone
1. You have no right to tell women what they should or should not do with their bodies. How many unwanted children have you adopted?
2. If you don't know all the facts of what you're opining about, then maybe your input is feckless.
3. Commercial fishing is out of the mainland? That's not what we're talking about. The point was that it is a mistaken concept that there are poor
Baja families stripping the Gulf of CA of its bounty to feed their familes, and that somehow overfishing, gill netting, etc. is then ok. Sustenance
fishing has never been a problem.
4. Again, proper fisheries management and conversation will enable those who do eat fish to continue to eat fish. Baja CA has a long way to go to
establish and monitor fishing conservation guidelines. Although there are laws, they are not enforced. There are organizations and other countries'
fisheries problems which have been addressed all over the world and improvement has been made on many fronts. The Gulf of CA has been exploited for
too long.
5. You don't eat fish, so that's your contribution to the SOLUTION? Well congratulations on your big sacrifice and involvement.
6. I contributed money to the Billfish Foundation to fight the new longline shark fishing laws (which was halted by the way - because of the outcry
from not only local Baja fishermen, but pressure from the US as well). I forwarded the video to a freelance writer who is currently researching a
story on the "old Baja" recreational fishing days, and a businesswoman who works for a fishing resort on the East Cape. I don't spearfish. I don't
catch 45 yellowtail per day just for fun. I don't catch and release a half-dead, traumatized fish back into the sea. I buy fishing permits, tip
pangueros enough to feed their families for a week, and make purchases all up and down the peninsula when I travel in Baja - unlike many people
driving motorhomes who bring everything with them and never indulge the local economy.
7. If you haven't noticed, Mex. 1 has heavy traffic night and day - and most retail establishments all up and down Mex. 1 benefit from those
in-country. Opportunities abound for those in coastal towns to feed their families.
8. "Is asking you to make a personal sacrifice to save the fisheries too much? Or does your involvement end with a stirring call to arms on a message
board?" Nonsense. And I reiterate my call to arms to persist to spread the word to those who can actually DO something, because self-rightous
proclamations of "I don't eat fish" just ain't gonna do it. |
Wilderone,
I agree with you post and respect your passion amigo!
saludos,
Ken
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wilderone
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3824
Registered: 2-9-2004
Member Is Offline
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Some of the emails bounced back: updated if you're interested
Correo electrónico: c.secretario@semarnat.gob.mx
ppatron@profepa.gob.mx
Richard KiyPresident & CEO rkiy@icfdn.org
aefl@fonatur.gob.mx
famieva@fonatur.gob.mx
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