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woody with a view
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i'm with ya Dennis. but i can honestly say that i can see the other side of the argument. maybe it's that devil's advocate in me.
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DENNIS
Platinum Nomad
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I see it as well, Woody. Dedicated soldiers fight for many causes and many reasons.
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flyfishinPam
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wow Dennis that's a solution but so is ethanol and tonic. drugs. what drugs? illegal only? what about the legal drug trade that Phizer, Merck, and
Squibb are involved in? or Anheiser-Bush? what about wrongly accused? how would you like to end up in that prison you describe if you are in fact
innocent? sounds like the war on terrorism parallels this.
I say make it all legal. for instance legalize meth labs and make meth a precribed medecine that doctors issue not unlike oxycontin. you don't see
people killing over oxycontin do you? their drugs such as meth would need to pass FDA standards, the drug labs would be pretty overwhelmed in r and d
and FDA compliance (that was part of my job once upon a time). legalizing drugs in Mexico would help for all of the reasons I described above,
legalizing it in the USA would take it to another dimension, that of FDA approvals, testing, R and D, and OSHA standards.
| Quote: | Originally posted by DENNIS
Having had time to ponder the above solution, something else has come to mind.
Both sides of the border have to be attended to and cleaning one side without cleaning the other would be futile. The rank and file of the illicit
drug enterprise, especially in the US, have little fear of incarceration and view it as nothing more than summer camp where they can hang with their
scummy friends and get cheap tattoos. The punishment isn't a determent but, an occupational hazard.
Punishment must be enhanced to give it a true, undesirable quality but, civil rights stand in the way of this procedure so what I'm proposeing is a
prison exlusivly for the drug trade folks which is outside the jurisdiction of the ACLU and the Ninth District Court of appeals. A prison which is
meant to be feared for the life it affords inside the walls. A prison which doesn't allow the word "Rights."
Both Mexico and the US should cede an adjoining parcel of land on the border, fifty square miles total perhaps, and build a prison that would be
designed in Hell. The territory wouldn't be in Mexico nor the US and would be administered by a private agency hired to maintain a strict decorum. A
very strict decorum. Prisoners should enter through the company cemetary with graves hand-hewn to the size of a ziplock bag full of ashes, and
prevailing breezes, if there are any, would waft a telltale exhaust from the incenerator.
Who would pay for this? Well, who pays for it now? Everybody pays for it and all the proceeds of saleable confiscations [not to include drugs]
would be used to defray expenses.
The punishment today doesn't fit the crime. Perhaps it did somewhere in the past but, today it doesn't. That is what needs to be fixed. With our
new prison in place, the problem would slowly abate and the Prison could be downsized according to need and it may even become a tourist attraction
like Alcatraz.
The biggest problem we have today is not the illicit drug industry. It's our failure to convince them that they shouldn't be doing what they're
doing.
Edited to get the prison name correct
[Edited on 9-2-2008 by DENNIS] |
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Dave
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Legal Schmegal
And then what will the cartels do? Close up shop and just fade away?
Idon'thinso.  More likely they will undercut the legal market.
Penalize users. Doesn't have to be hard time. Just arrest and public record. Good jobs don't go to dopers. Fortune 500 companies
don't hire 'em. If the casual user understands there is a long term consequence then he won't use. The cartels won't have customers. THEN they will
fade away.
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Mango
Senior Nomad
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Dave, they tried that in the 20's with booze in the USA. It didn't work.
There are already plenty of consequences for people caught using drugs. First off; drug users, or people who try drugs, don't think too far ahead..
otherwise they wouldn't be using drugs... (so deterrent does not work well)
Secondly, if everyone caught using drugs was prevented ever from getting a second chance and bettering themselves by getting a good job or their
community they would be forced to use other means to survive.
What would that be? Hand outs or crime? Take your choice.. Since you don't think letting someone reform, learn from their mistakes, and pay their
own way should be an option.
Legalize it, legislate it, and tax it. Let the cartels smuggle drugs into China instead. 
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TMW
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BajaWaverunner makes some good points. Your comments on ethics and trust ring a bell for me. In the early 90s I worked for KNSD-TV in San Diego. We
were in talks with the GM at ch12 in TJ for a joint venture in news. The discussions went on for a few months with the ch12 GM saying many times we
had a deal and during that time our chief photog, who was Mexican American, assured us that the GMs word was his bond, that was the way things were in
Mexico. When a man gave his word it was true just as if he had signed on the line. Then one day I was having lunch with a friend that worked at KGTV
in San Diego and he told me they had struck a deal with ch12 in a joint news venture. It turned out to be true. We were out and they were in. So much
for his word being his bond.
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David K
Honored Nomad
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BajaWaverunner, thank you for joining Nomad and being brave enough to post some hard facts of life from the inside... ... If steeling or cheating can
be done without consequences or conscience, it won't end.
There are plenty of honest Mexicans who won't cheat... even a little ('BajaCactus' is one good hombre who belongs to this group). Let us hope for
their greater, long term good, that all of Mexico realizes the benefits of honesty and fairness.
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woody with a view
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| Quote: |
that all of Mexico realizes the benefits of honesty and fairness.
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i guess a guy can hope, no? in our lifetimes things will be "what they are", you know, "it is what it is. that's all it will ever be".
same as it ever was......
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DENNIS
Platinum Nomad
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| Quote: | Originally posted by BajaWaverunner
The only way to fix mexico's problems is to instill a high level of ethics and trust into every child starting with pre-school.
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I admire your enthusiasm, BW but, how would you go about doing that if, as you say, nobody in the country knows what that means?
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CaboRon
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DENNIS
| Quote: | Originally posted by BajaWaverunner
The only way to fix mexico's problems is to instill a high level of ethics and trust into every child starting with pre-school.
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I admire your enthusiasm, BW but, how would you go about doing that if, as you say, nobody in the country knows what that means?
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Right On Dennis ,
Dishonisty is part of the fabric of this society ....
And I am told that these are quaint customs and they mean no harm .....
Maybe not, but the net result is a half truth (which is a full lie)
Like your "builder" won't tell you his crew screwed up the job, because he doesn't want to dissapoint you ....
What a Croc !
CaboRon
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whalemeat
Banned
Posts: 21
Registered: 9-1-2008
Location: Spartanburg, SC
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The mexican gov. has always lied to the people. The people lie as a matter of habit. Its like having bad parents who pass off bad habits to the
children.
The problem is I have not met very many mexicans who do not lie a little bit
or look for the easy way out. Its just the way the culture is.Some bring these bad habits to the states when they come over the line.Its a bad habit
to break.
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DENNIS
Platinum Nomad
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I think it's a lot more complicated than saying, "They just Lie." Their manner of communicating is different from ours. In many cases, you will be
told what you want to hear because they don't want any part of offending you.
This topic is heading south without many here, including myself, fully understanding the cultural differences. We only think we understand
ourselves and the whole universe should follow that model.
This subject is too deep for happy hour.
Salud.
Edited for lousy spelling
[Edited on 9-5-2008 by DENNIS]
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Lee
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3508
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Location: High in the Colorado Rockies
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Dopers aren't interested in ''good jobs''.
| Quote: | Originally posted by Dave
Penalize users. Doesn't have to be hard time. Just arrest and public record. Good jobs don't go to dopers. Fortune 500 companies
don't hire 'em. |
Users have been penalized for a long time -- and it has had no effect.
Have you ever been around someone doing meth? Good jobs for them? Do you think they care? Like the hookers on Hollywood Blvd., these
dopers are in and out of the system like a revolving door. These are the people holding up the restaurants in Berkeley/Oakland now -- to get money
to score.
| Quote: | | If the casual user understands there is a long term consequence then he won't use. The cartels won't have customers. THEN they will fade away.
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You clearly do not understand dopers. Your logic might make sense to someone who is clean and sober. There are no long term consequnces for
dopers to think about. They live here and now.
Since the war on drugs has ALWAYS been a dismal failure, might as well take that money and think outside the box. Legalize drugs and SEE WHAT
HAPPENS. If it doesn't work, then the ''experiement'' demonstrated a correction would be needed.
Prohibition didn't work. Eventually, the ''drug'' issue will fall away too.
US Marines: providing enemies of America an opportunity to die for their country since 1775.
What I say before any important decision.
F*ck it.
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Lee
Ultra Nomad
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Location: High in the Colorado Rockies
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White people can't dance and are rude and aggressive.
| Quote: | Originally posted by whalemeat
The mexican gov. has always lied to the people. The people lie as a matter of habit. Its like having bad parents who pass off bad habits to the
children.
The problem is I have not met very many mexicans who do not lie a little bit.... |
Nothing like gross generalizations and stereotypes. Think you need to meet more Mexicans.
Your first sentence is true. The rest is insulting. Just my opinion.
US Marines: providing enemies of America an opportunity to die for their country since 1775.
What I say before any important decision.
F*ck it.
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
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I don't have any pat answers to the question, it is complicated indeed. The roots of this issue go back to the time of the Aztecs, who ruled with an
iron hand, followed by conquestadors/priests who took it to another level followed by self serving despots and one party rule for seventy five years
that established a patronage system that is still in place, though challenged in the past two administrations with the affect of increased resistance
and violence. Change will not come easy to a country of conquored people who carry in their dna the adaption to centuries of oppression where one can
only trust family to support you and it's scratch my back and I will scratch yours. Minimal expectations and nehilistic strategies i.e. live for the
moment and don't trust the government, police or the people who are in power because of the perogatives that government employment present. Everything
is a favor in this sort of situation and it is how most of the world works, situational ethics is the ethic of the day. These attitudes are tempored
by a religious adaptation that allows for confession and forgiveness and a ton of guilt to boot, which is profitable for the church, once thrown out
of Mexico for it's corruption and abuse of the Mexican people.
I love Mexico and it's people. The family is the base of it all, the heart and sole of Mexico and any change of culture and values will come from
there or not at all.
It is clear that the drugs are extremely profitable for everyone involved and even if poverty would be adequately addressed, it is still possible for
folks high in the trade to live larger than those who work full time at "normal" occupations. I saw a 12 year old dealer in San Francisco, California,
USofA dealing out of his fanny pack and I saw him take in over a hundred bucks while I had lunch. I thought to myself, how can this kid ever be
interested in making seven fifty an hour? What could he do that would buy him the threads he sees worn by the gangster rapper that flows out of his
Ipod?
There are not simple answers to problems as complex as addressed in this fascinating and vital topic.
One attempt to address one of the underlying roots of the problem is the denial that human beings are an organism that likes to alter it consciousness
and that will not change. No amount of draconian measures or imprisonment will change the use of drugs. One of the approaches that will address a root
cause, profit, would be legalization, sale and taxation by the state. This would bring the economy above ground. This would allow for realistic public
education and funding for many projects of public interest related to drug education, prevention, treatment etc. including adequate child care for
parents who are addicted and seaking help. This is a medical problem and should be addressed by experts on the subject who deal with this one case at
a time. We have seen success with tobacco and the ending of Prohibition for historic models. Drug use will not go away, nor will tobacco addiction,
nor will alcoholism, but they can be addressed over time by public policies that acknowledge the real issues involved.
What has been proposed here is the establishment of a police state in Mexico to address it's current problems. News flash, there is drug use in
contries that are police states. A solution of this magnatude carries with it unanticipated consequences as evidenced by the history of Police and
Military run dictatorships. There are trade offs when looking at the issue of liberty and security. Too much of one negates the other.
To deny that there are national characteristics in the general population is to deny the existance of the bones in our own noses. There are qualities
both good and bad that describe the general characteristics of various cultures, subcultures, and family systems. The generalities about these
characteristics can of course be argued by the individual example, but that begs the existance of very real cultural differences. Cultures evolve
over time to adapt to the realities of their geography, climate, and history. There are reasons that German trains have run on time and other
countries, not so much. There are reasons that in some cultures bones are worn in noses. There are reasons why people born and raised in the USofA see
a larger picture of how infrastructure can benefit all members of the community and can't see why it is so hard in other countries to affect this.
There are reasons why people from the same country are seen as pushy, time and product focused rather than focused on the hear and now and family.
I believe that the last two Mexican Presidents, both with in depth experience in the USofA, want to impliment reform that addresses corruption and the
legal system that is based upon the Napolianic Code of Justice. There is an old Chinese curse that reads something like "May you live in times of
great change". A curse indeed and one that is rocking the foundations of Mexican society and it's historic adaptive strategies.
IflyfishwhennotthinkingaboutourbelovedmexicoevenwhenoutfishinginBC
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CaboRon
Ultra Nomad
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Location: The Valley of the Moon
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Thank you Grover and Iffyfish ...
For presenting sane posts ....
Lee, I think you need to get to Pescadero and chill
CaboRon
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The Gull
Super Nomad
Posts: 2223
Registered: 8-28-2003
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These posts are total jokes
The arrogance and myopia-guided assertions are so typical of Gringos thinking they even have something to offer a foreign country in regards on how to
run another country.
Based on this example, I agree the board is truly decaying.
�I won\'t insult your intelligence by suggesting that you really believe what you just said.� William F. Buckley, Jr.
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64852
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Location: San Diego County
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Yup, let Mexico remain Mexican...
If you travel or live there, than ADJUST YOUR WAY OF THINKING!
Don't go to a place you fell in love with and start trying to change it into the place you left! What kind of logic is that???
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Mango
Senior Nomad
Posts: 685
Registered: 4-11-2006
Location: Alta California &/or Mexicali
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Mood: Bajatastic
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DENNIS
I think it's a lot more complicated than saying, "They just Lie." Their manner of communicating is different from ours. In many cases, you will be
told what you want to hear because they don't want any part of offending you.
This topic is heading south without many here, including myself, fully understanding the cultural differences. We only think we understand
ourselves and the whole universe should follow that model.
This subject is too deep for happy hour.
Salud.
Edited for lousy spelling
[Edited on 9-5-2008 by DENNIS] |
I think Dennis has it about right with this post. There are just differences in cultures and it can be hard to understand the logic, history, or
rationale behind decisions that are made.
It's Mexico; not the US. If you don't want to take a bath, goto France, if you do, goto Japan. If you want clean, tidy and orderly... try Germany...
don't really care? Mexico might just be fine. Want to get wasted on booze and lay naked on the beach? I'd stay away from Saudi Arabia. Get the
picture?
Each and every Mexican, and region of Mexico, is as different as each and every gringo and region of the USA.
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TENGOMIEDO
Newbie
Posts: 11
Registered: 8-10-2008
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Si Chuey, la Marcha de Justicia....No me hagas reir. Eso nunca va a pasar. El Presidente no tiene los huevos para hacer eso.
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