| Pages:
1
2
3 |
David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64859
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
|
|
The trees at Nuevo Mazatlan and elsewhere where people have planted those cuttings have not 'spread out' to unwanted areas... That species of salt
cedar stays put... It thrives in salt water where no other shade tree will grow... it is a blessing to the people and animals of the desert gulf coast
of Baja.... the Baja salt cedar... Tamarix aphylla... Thank God for creating a perfect tree for such harsh conditions!
Skip mac and mtgoat666, you keep bringing up ANOTHER variety that is a problem plant and we all agree that other tamarisk is a problem plant... The
one Santiago wants to plant is NOT a problem plant on the coast of Baja... it is a welcomed gift... brought to Baja long before any of us were born so
it seems.
|
|
|
jeans
Super Nomad
Posts: 1059
Registered: 9-16-2002
Member Is Offline
Mood: Encantada
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by Paulina
On my first trip to Bahia almost 30 years ago I made the mistake of setting my cot up under one of those trees, thinking it was going to provide shade
for my afternoon siesta. Not until it started to rain on me did I realize there was a reason no one else was so smart.
P<*)))>{ |
I know what you mean! I parked my truck/campershell under a canopy of salt cedars at Cielito Lindo. A heavy fog came in.....I couldn't believe the
mess I had the next morning...all the dust caught in its leaves had rained down and was mud all over my tables, chairs and the truck.
Mom always told me to be different - Now she says...Not THAT different
|
|
|
wilderone
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3825
Registered: 2-9-2004
Member Is Offline
|
|
The thousands of seeds are disbursed by wind and water to WHERE? Do you know where they land, and then sprout and take root? In some arroyo
displacing native plants that the wildlife requires for food? tapping into the water reserves which might be supporting mesquite or palo verde or
cacti? eventually choking animal migration routes in narrow canyons limiting foraging range? It produces no food for animals. The seeds will be
disbursed, and you will not know the eventual effect on the environment - possibly in your lifetime - but altering the ecology nevertheless. Yes,
there are plenty in Baja CA, and one can only wonder what might have been if not for the species that disrupts the balance of nature.
|
|
|
Barry A.
Select Nomad
Posts: 10007
Registered: 11-30-2003
Location: Redding, Northern CA
Member Is Offline
Mood: optimistic
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by wilderone
The thousands of seeds are disbursed by wind and water to WHERE? Do you know where they land, and then sprout and take root? In some arroyo
displacing native plants that the wildlife requires for food? tapping into the water reserves which might be supporting mesquite or palo verde or
cacti? eventually choking animal migration routes in narrow canyons limiting foraging range? It produces no food for animals. The seeds will be
disbursed, and you will not know the eventual effect on the environment - possibly in your lifetime - but altering the ecology nevertheless. Yes,
there are plenty in Baja CA, and one can only wonder what might have been if not for the species that disrupts the balance of nature.
|
A question: Is it not the "bottom line" that "change" is the dominant factor in any ecology-------we (plants, animals, Geography, etc. ) are all part
of and influence that "change", es verdad? I am thinking that we spend entirely too much mental energy and money in trying to freeze the changes that
naturally (in it's broadest sense) are happening around us. But I will agree that we MUST remain aware, and head off SOME changes that are obviously
threatening our lives as we know it-----I am not sure the earth really cares, tho.
Barry
|
|
|
wilderone
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3825
Registered: 2-9-2004
Member Is Offline
|
|
Yes - human inhabitants, the cattle we put out to graze on the meadow destroying the native plants, trampling stream beds, polluting water sources;
the acres of agriculture, pesticides, fertilizers, dams, man-made lakes, mining, human caused fires, overfishing, eradicating animal species, etc -
all continually change and alter the natural landscape and it is inevitable. But wouldn't a little education and awareness of the consequences of our
actions beyond the immediate or personal arena be of some value - individually - one by one - all over the world - to keep the earth - our home -
healthier? Why wouldn't a palapa do for shade? Accept the land for what it is instead of causing irreversible change? Have we learned nothing in
the past 50 years with the detrimental affects, knowledge of them and data readily available? I don't know that the earth has emotions to "care", but
obviously suffers from insult, and we are all dependent on a healthy earth to sustain us. We have the resources to do better than we did in the past.
|
|
|
Barry A.
Select Nomad
Posts: 10007
Registered: 11-30-2003
Location: Redding, Northern CA
Member Is Offline
Mood: optimistic
|
|
Wilderone------true, but can't we moderate the actual implimentation of these 100's of ideas that the ecologists come up with claiming that there are
dire consequences if we don't implement immediately? The economy of the world is at stake----progress (as I know it), even---------the lack of
drilling is only the latest folly that we now are facing the consequences of. The consequences of "drilling" were way over blown by the ecologists,
and many of us know that----thus we pay little attention to this ranting and raving.
I know that strong rhetoric is often the ONLY thing that gets attention, but that same "strong rhetoric" also turns many of us OFF, so that little
gets done.
It is a dilemma, of course.
Obviously, just my thoughts, and maybe way off base.
Barry
|
|
|
Santiago
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3512
Registered: 8-27-2003
Member Is Offline
|
|
All right already - enough. I will personalyy cut down every single frigging one I meet - I will be the anti-Johnny-salt-pine-seed of baja. I will
build my shade with my own honest labor, hewn from the natural materials at hand. Of course, I will have to get the HOA's approval to remove an
existing tree - that ought to be fun. Oh wait - I know - I will use the argument that they are an introduced species - that will work. Just as long
as migra doesn't use the same on me.....
|
|
|
larryC
Super Nomad
Posts: 1496
Registered: 8-11-2008
Location: BoLA
Member Is Offline
|
|
Paulina
Don't remember how much we watered them in the begining, but probably once or twice a week.
Wilderone
If your theory were correct and the seeds were all over then wouldn't you expect to find wild salt pines just popping up in the desert around Bahia
and other places? I see none of that around Bahia, or anywhere else for that matter. I'm not arguing the merits of planting foreign species, just that
I see no evidence that what you are proposing is actually happening, and the salt pine has been around long enough and is fast growing enough to be
readily evident if it was propogateing to any extent.
Oh well enough typing from about this subject.
Larry
|
|
|
Paulina
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3810
Registered: 8-31-2002
Location: BCN
Member Is Offline
|
|
Thank you Larry. It sounds like we'll have to wait until the summer months when we're there to water them.
Santiago, make sure the wind is blowing to the south when you cut down the trees. If the powers that be in town hear your chainsaw you're toast. No
cutting of anything alive or dead, and that goes for collecting too. Don't worry, if they throw you in the carsa, I'll bring you food and beer. I'm
good at that.
P<*)))>{
\"Well behaved women rarely make history.\" Laurel Thatcher Ulrich
|
|
|
mtgoat666
Select Nomad
Posts: 18417
Registered: 9-16-2006
Location: San Diego
Member Is Offline
Mood: Hot n spicy
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by larryC
If your theory were correct and the seeds were all over then wouldn't you expect to find wild salt pines just popping up in the desert around Bahia
and other places? I see none of that around Bahia, or anywhere else for that matter. I'm not arguing the merits of planting foreign species, just that
I see no evidence that what you are proposing is actually happening, and the salt pine has been around long enough and is fast growing enough to be
readily evident if it was propogateing to any extent.
Oh well enough typing from about this subject.
Larry |
Think global, act local.
Anecdotal observations only substitute as evidence and reasoned scientific analysis in the minds of DK, and republicans that oppose environmental
concepts on ideological grounds
|
|
|
Barry A.
Select Nomad
Posts: 10007
Registered: 11-30-2003
Location: Redding, Northern CA
Member Is Offline
Mood: optimistic
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by mtgoat666
| Quote: | Originally posted by larryC
If your theory were correct and the seeds were all over then wouldn't you expect to find wild salt pines just popping up in the desert around Bahia
and other places? I see none of that around Bahia, or anywhere else for that matter. I'm not arguing the merits of planting foreign species, just that
I see no evidence that what you are proposing is actually happening, and the salt pine has been around long enough and is fast growing enough to be
readily evident if it was propogateing to any extent.
Oh well enough typing from about this subject.
Larry |
Think global, act local.
Anecdotal observations only substitute as evidence and reasoned scientific analysis in the minds of DK, and republicans that oppose environmental
concepts on ideological grounds |
Righttttttttt!!!! "Scientific" generalizatons or specifics always trump any personal experience or observations---------why am I not buying that????
Maybe because old science once put forth as "gospel" is often proven wrong, or misleading, later on.
Barry
|
|
|
mtgoat666
Select Nomad
Posts: 18417
Registered: 9-16-2006
Location: San Diego
Member Is Offline
Mood: Hot n spicy
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by Barry A.
Righttttttttt!!!! "Scientific" generalizatons or specifics always trump any personal experience or observations---------why am I not buying that????
Maybe because old science once put forth as "gospel" is often proven wrong, or misleading, later on.
Barry |
Following a logical decision process is better than winging it on the basis of a hunch and some musty observations by grandpa 
|
|
|
mtgoat666
Select Nomad
Posts: 18417
Registered: 9-16-2006
Location: San Diego
Member Is Offline
Mood: Hot n spicy
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
it is a blessing to the people and animals of the desert gulf coast of Baja.... the Baja salt cedar... Tamarix aphylla... Thank God for creating a
perfect tree for such harsh conditions!
|
did the animals tell you they thought it a blessing?
dk is dr dolittle, and a taxonomist assigning new species names 
|
|
|
Barry A.
Select Nomad
Posts: 10007
Registered: 11-30-2003
Location: Redding, Northern CA
Member Is Offline
Mood: optimistic
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by mtgoat666
| Quote: | Originally posted by Barry A.
Righttttttttt!!!! "Scientific" generalizatons or specifics always trump any personal experience or observations---------why am I not buying that????
Maybe because old science once put forth as "gospel" is often proven wrong, or misleading, later on.
Barry |
Following a logical decision process is better than winging it on the basis of a hunch and some musty observations by grandpa
|
Yeah, that is what my Harvard grad friend always says, too-----however it is he,
following all his education and scientific analysis, that almost always loses money in the Stock Market, and it is me and my "grandpa" ideas that
consistantly MAKES money there-----
Go figure?????
To each his own-----I tend to stick with what works for me, while listening to the very educated "wise ones" also, for new ideas, you know. 
Barry
|
|
|
David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64859
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
|
|
mtgoat, you're a dope... grow up, learn to appreciate what powers Nature has over this planet and adapt...
There is no man made global warming, the sky isn't falling, and the salt cedars in Baja do not spread about and pop up, by themselves... Humans place
then where they are desired for shade and that is where they stay.
Also, think of things working out for a reason... and humans are not aliens, they are part of this planet as well... we belong here and here is what
we need to live and thrive... that includes natural resources!
Cheers... I am going to enjoy tonight's new episode of 'House'!
|
|
|
DianaT
Select Nomad
Posts: 10020
Registered: 12-17-2004
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
mtgoat, you're a dope... grow up, learn to appreciate what powers Nature has over this planet and adapt...
There is no man made global warming, the sky isn't falling, and the salt cedars in Baja do not spread about and pop up, by themselves... Humans place
then where they are desired for shade and that is where they stay.
Also, think of things working out for a reason... and humans are not aliens, they are part of this planet as well... we belong here and here is what
we need to live and thrive... that includes natural resources!
Cheers... I am going to enjoy tonight's new episode of 'House'! |
And the one who calls for the group hug and we are the world song, calls another a "dope" Opps
Salt cedars---all varieties---are ill advised introductions to a native environment, IMHO.
But then again, I also believe that homo sapien sapien has not always done what is wise and beneficial for the survival of mother earth.
Diane
|
|
|
dtbushpilot
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3290
Registered: 1-11-2007
Location: Buena Vista BCS
Member Is Offline
Mood: Tranquilo
|
|
It seems that this thread has gotten a little off track....whoda thunkit?......dt
|
|
|
Barry A.
Select Nomad
Posts: 10007
Registered: 11-30-2003
Location: Redding, Northern CA
Member Is Offline
Mood: optimistic
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by jdtrotter
| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
mtgoat, you're a dope... grow up, learn to appreciate what powers Nature has over this planet and adapt...
There is no man made global warming, the sky isn't falling, and the salt cedars in Baja do not spread about and pop up, by themselves... Humans place
then where they are desired for shade and that is where they stay.
Also, think of things working out for a reason... and humans are not aliens, they are part of this planet as well... we belong here and here is what
we need to live and thrive... that includes natural resources!
Cheers... I am going to enjoy tonight's new episode of 'House'! |
And the one who calls for the group hug and we are the world song, calls another a "dope" Opps
Salt cedars---all varieties---are ill advised introductions to a native environment, IMHO.
But then again, I also believe that homo sapien sapien has not always done what is wise and beneficial for the survival of mother earth.
Diane |
-----Diane-------did you watch the PBS program NOVA last night???? All about Black Holes, and devastation totally beyond imagination, right here in
our galaxcy, the Milky Way (plus billions of other Galaxys). I don't think that "Mother Earth" cares one whit what Homo Sapien does-------and science
tells us that 99% + of all creatures and life on earth has gone extinct in the history of modern earth (as we understand it).
I find it a little bazaar that "we" (?) are proposing spending so much time, energy and money to try and offset what appears to be largely (97 + % ?)
inevitable.
Just my ill-informed opinion, of course.
Barry
|
|
|
David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64859
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
|
|
I am sorry mtgoat for calling you a 'dope' it just rhymmed and was tired of you not seeing the facts... Name calling goes against my rules... it is
the first time despite the dozens of things you say about me, for which you have never retracted or apologized for...
Diane, you don't say a thing when I am addressed in a disrespectful way, do you?
Once again 'House' was great entertainment... on Fox, 8pm, Tue.
On another note, solar wind activity is at an all time low since we could monitor it... Been declining since 2006... Want to bet that the earth is in
a cooling trend now?
|
|
|
DianaT
Select Nomad
Posts: 10020
Registered: 12-17-2004
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by Barry A.
-----Diane-------did you watch the PBS program NOVA last night???? All about Black Holes, and devastation totally beyond imagination, right here in
our galaxcy, the Milky Way (plus billions of other Galaxys). I don't think that "Mother Earth" cares one whit what Homo Sapien does-------and science
tells us that 99% + of all creatures and life on earth has gone extinct in the history of modern earth (as we understand it).
I find it a little bazaar that "we" (?) are proposing spending so much time, energy and money to try and offset what appears to be largely (97 + % ?)
inevitable.
Just my ill-informed opinion, of course.
Barry |
Did not watch that particular show, but I do understand that extinction is a part of cycle of nature. Eventually I believe that humans will also
become extinct, or as Kurt Vonnegut wrote about in one of my favorite books, we might all evolve into dolphins. Extinction is simply a part of
nature.
But, wouldn't you agree that humans have made a real mess out of things in some areas at some times? They certainly have accelerated the extinction
of many species and polluted their own envioronment.
Well, tis off topic. How to propogate salt cedars was the question, it was answered, and IMHO, they are unfortunately in Baja----certainly not the
only non-native species there. And some people actually like the salt-cedars---
Diane
[Edited on 9-24-2008 by jdtrotter]
|
|
|
| Pages:
1
2
3 |
![[*]](images/xmbforum/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
