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fishbuck
Banned
Posts: 5318
Registered: 8-31-2006
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Diane, did you ever consider that change or progress can be mutually beneificial?
But the day that going to Baja does not benefit me in the way that I am looking for is the day I start going somewhere else.
I can not see any benefit to me of a deep water port larger than LA-Long Beach put together. The drive from the border to Colonet would be unbearable
with truck traffic.
Whether you want to admit it or not expats are a part of Baja now. And our needs and wants should be factored in to any progress being contemplated
that will effect quality of life issues. Baja is for all the people there not just the locals.
I didn't think that paving your road was a bad thing.
"A ship in harbor is safe, but that is not what ships are built for." J. A. Shedd.
A clever person solves a problem. A wise person avoids it. – Albert Einstein
"Life's a Beach... and then you Fly!" Fishbuck
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movinguy
Nomad
Posts: 257
Registered: 3-19-2004
Location: Chula Vista, CA and Tijuana, MX
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Fish -
Keep an open mind, my friend. You're a year older and a far better fisherman than I, I'm sure. But I had the good fortune to find that beautiful
Baja lady - and the beach house.
Our dream of keeping Baja pristine is about as realistic as their dream of getting Alta California back. Punta Colonet may in fact never happen -
plenty of people losing their shirts in that particular land rush.
Keep the dream alive Fish - I wish you well . . . 
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Bajahowodd
Elite Nomad
Posts: 9274
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If the Colonet project goes forward, there will be a four-lane bypass road, so that those looking to head south of colonet might actually benefit.
Anyone who travels the peninsula already knows that there are bottlenecks on the current road, especially from Ensenada to San Quintin.
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Sharksbaja
Elite Nomad
Posts: 5814
Registered: 9-7-2004
Location: Newport, Mulege B.C.S.
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Now now children. You can't have yer cake and eat it too!
Or can you?? I tend to think so in some locales, but how do you constrain outsiders from picking up the proverbial gavel? Money just talks way too
loud. Can that be constrained? I think not.
Most coastal retreats become valuable real estate eventually. If some big wig or Corp wants to move into town they will pay to. You can't stop a
runaway train easily.
I BA were to have protected harbor it would have been overrun a long time ago. Make it easy and they will. Good bad and ugly. In the name of progress
they will claim.
Now that our park has gone the HOA route, there's an omnipresent change occuring. It's certainly not of Mexican origin and frankly seems way out of
place but it makes someone happy.
It's all about balance. Add a Walmart etc. and whole town changes along with it.
DON\'T SQUINT! Give yer eyes a break!
Try holding down [control] key and toggle the [+ and -] keys
Viva Mulege!
Nomads\' Sunsets
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Dave
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6005
Registered: 11-5-2002
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Providing a good time
| Quote: | Originally posted by jdtrotter
Really??? Quite an attitude, IMHO. But I guess the people there are simply there to provide you a good time. 
Diane
Diane |
That's what a successful tourist industry does.
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Tommy A
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Registered: 5-19-2004
Location: Manhattan Beach, Ca
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Mood: Relaxed
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Mexico to postpone and may cancel Punta Colonet port
A drop in traffic on the Pacific Coast has made it more difficult for possible bidders to get financing, an official says. The port could potentially
compete with Southern California terminals.
Bloomberg News
9:34 PM PST, January 13, 2009
Mexico will postpone construction of its planned Punta Colonet port on the Pacific Coast and may scrap the project entirely as interested bidders
struggle to find financing for the $4.88-billion complex.
The first simultaneous recession in the U.S., Japan and Europe since World War II has led to a 30% drop in port traffic on the U.S. and Canadian
Pacific coasts, making it difficult for potential bidders to get financing, Mexican Communications and Transportation Minister Luis Tellez said in
Mexico City.
We are working with banks to see if this will be possible," he said Tuesday. "There is still interest in the project; it is just a matter of timing."
The port, in northern Baja California, was the single biggest portion of Mexican President Felipe Calderon's pledge to spend 570 billion pesos ($41.2
billion) a year in public and private money on road, port and other infrastructure projects through 2012. The plans called for building an airport,
highways and a rail link to the U.S. as part of Colonet.
Citigroup Inc. and another U.S. bank are advising Mexico on Colonet and will present a plan by the end of the month that recommends whether the port
should be built, Tellez said.
Mexican officials had said the port, 150 miles south of San Diego, would triple the amount of cargo the country could handle and might lure traffic
from terminals in the U.S.
Mexico will go forward with other projects for which companies have said they will probably find financing, including building an airport on the
Riviera Maya, near Cancun.
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DianaT
Select Nomad
Posts: 10020
Registered: 12-17-2004
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Dave
| Quote: | Originally posted by jdtrotter
Really??? Quite an attitude, IMHO. But I guess the people there are simply there to provide you a good time.
Diane
Diane |
That's what a successful tourist industry does. |
Totally agree about the tourist industry--yes, that is their job.
I was more referring to what appears to be an attitude shared by some that Baja is strictly for them and their pleasure and they don't give a rip
about the people and their well being---not necessarily the ones in the tourist industry. I was not clear.
Thanks
Diane
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BajaGringo
Ultra Nomad
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Location: La Chorera
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Mood: Let's have a BBQ!
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| Quote: | Originally posted by jdtrotter
I was more referring to what appears to be an attitude shared by some that Baja is strictly for them and their pleasure and they don't give a rip
about the people and their well being---not necessarily the ones in the tourist industry.
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That is my feeling exactly Diane. Sometimes I feel that some of the gringos who come to the peninsula see the Mexicans solely as part of their
service/entertainment package. Little care or interest is shown in their welfare. How many of you ever stop to think what kind of life some of these
folks go home to who bring you your food, beer, pump your gas, work as cashiers, etc?
You want to keep Baja exactly as it is with no new progress. Sounds fantastic but no progress also means no new economic opportunities for these
people. The California coastline from San Diego to Los Angeles was a pristine place many decades ago. It has changed and a high percentage of you here
in this forum have benefited financially from that Southern California economic development, directly or indirectly.
You want to come and enjoy the beauty of this peninsula with the money earned from that economic development north of the border and at the same time
you want to deny that opportunity to them so you can enjoy your vacations and retirement? Geez, I guess that makes sense. In fact if we keep the area
undeveloped that will help keep the salaries down so we can keep taking advantage of these cheap services???
God forbid if any of these poor folks try to go north of the border and pursue the same economic dreams so many of us did. We will have none of
that!!!
The long term solution to the illegal immigration issue is Mexico developing more economic opportunities for its people. Many of those opportunities
will happen along coastlines, as did in Alta California.
For us to take advantage of and benefit from that economic potential north of the border and at the same time want to deny that same opportunity these
poor people south of the border for our personal pleasure is incredibly hypocritical IMHO.
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Dave
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6005
Registered: 11-5-2002
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| Quote: | Originally posted by jdtrotter
I was more referring to what appears to be an attitude shared by some that Baja is strictly for them and their pleasure and they don't give a rip
about the people and their well being---not necessarily the ones in the tourist industry. I was not clear.
Thanks
Diane |
The majority of travelers to Baja are tourists. As a tourist, do you base the decision to eat or stay at a particular place based on concern for the
owner's well being, or its reputation?
Tourists vote with their dollars. Don't take it personal. 
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DENNIS
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 29510
Registered: 9-2-2006
Location: Punta Banda
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| Quote: | Originally posted by BajaGringo
That is my feeling exactly Diane. Sometimes I feel that some of the gringos who come to the peninsula see the Mexicans solely as part of their
service/entertainment package. Little care or interest is shown in their welfare. |
There's more to visiting Baja than interacting with the people and many who visit don't come here to equate the well-being of the people with what
they have, earned or otherwise. Some come only to see the land and sea. Steinbeck did it, Ricketts did it and so did Gardner. Nobody ever called
them selfish or uncaring.
Why is it that some Americans when in a foreign country feel obligated to raise the standard of living to their level? It almost seems arrogant.
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BajaGringo
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3922
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Location: La Chorera
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DENNIS
| Quote: | Originally posted by BajaGringo
That is my feeling exactly Diane. Sometimes I feel that some of the gringos who come to the peninsula see the Mexicans solely as part of their
service/entertainment package. Little care or interest is shown in their welfare. |
There's more to visiting Baja than interacting with the people and many who visit don't come here to equate the well-being of the people with what
they have, earned or otherwise. Some come only to see the land and sea. Steinbeck did it, Ricketts did it and so did Gardner. Nobody ever called
them selfish or uncaring.
Why is it that some Americans when in a foreign country feel obligated to raise the standard of living to their level? It almost seems arrogant.
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Not what I was saying Dennis. I brought up the personal level of it only to make folks think a minute about what life really is like for many of these
folks they interact with here in Baja. My main point was only that I find it arrogant to think that we can take advantage of all the economic
opportunities north of the border but somehow we feel that we have some right to expect those living south of the border to give up their right to
those same opportunities, solely because we want to drink a cold Pacifico on a white sandy beach with no development in sight.
I find that hypocritical AND arrogant...
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mtgoat666
Select Nomad
Posts: 18392
Registered: 9-16-2006
Location: San Diego
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Mood: Hot n spicy
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| Quote: | Originally posted by BajaGringo
| Quote: | Originally posted by DENNIS
| Quote: | Originally posted by BajaGringo
That is my feeling exactly Diane. Sometimes I feel that some of the gringos who come to the peninsula see the Mexicans solely as part of their
service/entertainment package. Little care or interest is shown in their welfare. |
There's more to visiting Baja than interacting with the people and many who visit don't come here to equate the well-being of the people with what
they have, earned or otherwise. Some come only to see the land and sea. Steinbeck did it, Ricketts did it and so did Gardner. Nobody ever called
them selfish or uncaring.
Why is it that some Americans when in a foreign country feel obligated to raise the standard of living to their level? It almost seems arrogant.
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Not what I was saying Dennis. I brought up the personal level of it only to make folks think a minute about what life really is like for many of these
folks they interact with here in Baja. My main point was only that I find it arrogant to think that we can take advantage of all the economic
opportunities north of the border but somehow we feel that we have some right to expect those living south of the border to give up their right to
those same opportunities, solely because we want to drink a cold Pacifico on a white sandy beach with no development in sight.
I find that hypocritical AND arrogant... |
But, Americans are hypocritical and arrogant? Aren't we all?
Manifest Destiny!
Yes we can! (behave better)
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DianaT
Select Nomad
Posts: 10020
Registered: 12-17-2004
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DENNIS
Why is it that some Americans when in a foreign country feel obligated to raise the standard of living to their level? It almost seems arrogant.
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Yes, that would be a very arrogant attitude, I agree. But I don't think that is what is being said here.
It is about denying or not caring about allowing the people to progress in ways that they see as beneficial. It is about the selfish attitude of
wanting to keep things "magical" and or "quaint" when magical and quaint may not be in the best interest of the locals.
In someways, IMHO, it is a matter of priorities of what is important.
Diane
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DENNIS
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 29510
Registered: 9-2-2006
Location: Punta Banda
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| Quote: | Originally posted by jdtrotter
It is about denying or not caring about allowing the people to progress in ways that they see as beneficial. It is about the selfish attitude of
wanting to keep things "magical" and or "quaint" when magical and quaint may not be in the best interest of the locals.
In someways, IMHO, it is a matter of priorities of what is important.
Diane |
Thanks, Diane. I see your point but, I don't think we have the power through our thoughts without direct action to influence anything. Our
fantasys keep us going and if that entails a wish and desire to keep a bit of the past in the present, it harms nobody. It all will change when it's
time comes.
Besides, the preservation of natural treasures is an honored endeavor in the U.S. and should be in Mexico as well. Yellowstone Park is an example.
It's done to retain the beauty of the land. On a small scale perhaps, the love of the beauty of Baja can be equal to the consideration given to the
Parks up north, even by individuals. It's all good and that's important too.
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BajaGringo
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3922
Registered: 8-24-2006
Location: La Chorera
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Mood: Let's have a BBQ!
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You are right Dennis - it all comes down to a debate of fantasy as what happens or doesn't happen here will be little affected by what any of us say
here.
But we are Nomads after all and God knows we love to say what we think!
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Bajahowodd
Elite Nomad
Posts: 9274
Registered: 12-15-2008
Location: Disneyland Adjacent and anywhere in Baja
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Dennis' mention of Americans seeking to raise the standard of living. Americans can be blind and think that only they live correctly. It's more like
American's seeking the change others' standard of living. Not enough American actually get out and see the world; and many who go, only look but do
not see.
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Skipjack Joe
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8084
Registered: 7-12-2004
Location: Bahia Asuncion
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
In many cases, people weren't there before development.
It a twin edged sword... good and bad. People stayed in Baja for the simple life... If they wanted modern living and sevices they moved to the cities
or the mainland. The simple life is also what attracts most of Baja's original visitors who wanted to escape 'civilization', for a break.
It is so STRANGE when people come to Baja (because they like it there, the way it is) and then want to CHANGE it!!??? How does THAT make any sense... to change it to what you LEFT!?
Sure, it would be cool if Hwy. 1 wasn't built... However, getting to L.A. Bay in 8 hours wouldn't be possible... Really about 6 days or more to reach
La Paz unless you were in a race buggy, because to travel 150 miles in one day on the old Baja main road was doing good!
What I see as the biggest blight is the UNFINISHED/ abandoned projects... like Puerto Escondido and The Escalera Nautica disaster at Santa
Rosalillita... hoping it never gets stared at L.A. Bay or anywhere else.
That kind of wishful thinking by Mexican politicians HUTRTS Baja... Both tourism, and natural enviroment/ sea shore. It is hard to make pretty
once something is paved over... and left to rot.
My family and I used to camp on the shore of Puerto/ Bahia Escondido... along with many others... A great place... It was... Then it was fenced off
when the project started... The French (behind the project) pulled out, and the Mexican developer disappeared. No longer can anyone camp on the shore
of the bay, go fishing or swimming or kayaking... 
Other such projects have scarred the landscape with gradiose entrances and deserted property beyond... We see them... No completion mandates in
Mexico, I guess?
Sure the people should have what they need if they are already there... but to come to a tiny village and demand city-like services...? Stay in the
city!
There was something really magic about a town that turned off its lights at 10-11 pm and let the Baja night sky take over (Bahia de los Angeles).
Somehow people survived, the beer didn't get too warm before the morning, and life was more special when you spent time visiting with your neighbors
instead of watching Telamundo.
L.A. Bay now has 24 hour power via poles and wires from Guerrero Negro, along the highway. The main street in town, is a wreck, with whoever making
one side a meter lower than the other, requiring multiple U turns and excess driving just to go from business to business... Progress? That's
progress??
Okay, I'm ranting... life goes on!
Thanks for your support! |
Please rant some more DavidK!
This is a side of you I never knew existed and never, ever expected to hear.
God bless Baja Angel and your marriage. She has been a positive influence in your life.
I wholeheartedly support your assessment.
The truth is that all of these baja natives who have 'benefitted' from all this development will eventually become disillusioned after they realize
what they've lost. It's undoubtedly happening already. The thought that baja's developers are doing this to raise the standard of living of the local
population brings a smile to my face. How naive.
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64856
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
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Mood: Have Baja Fever
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I have always had those thoughts... but thank you for the recognition...  Maybe I am a calmer man thanks to Baja Angel...? 
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Bajahowodd
Elite Nomad
Posts: 9274
Registered: 12-15-2008
Location: Disneyland Adjacent and anywhere in Baja
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Got an example of the standard of living issue. Last year we were in Odessa, Ukraine. There's a tremendous amount of restoration going on to their
historic buildings. We were at a museum, that had just completed an addition to the building. The addition included new restroom facilities. Brand,
spanking new, and even had an attendant. Brand new squat toilets. It's what they are used to in that part of the world. If anyone needs a description,
please ask.
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Skipjack Joe
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8084
Registered: 7-12-2004
Location: Bahia Asuncion
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Road to Gonzaga
In his autobiography Ansel Adams writes about the new road built to Tioga Pass in the 30's. The Army Corps of Engineers decided it had to blast the
glacial polish through what is now Olmsted Point to build that road. To a man who grew up loving the Sierras the distant thunder heard in yosemite
valley was nervewracking. Anyone who has stopped at Olmsted Point and climb that smooth rock can now sympathize with AA's feelings.
That's how I felt driving the last leg of the San Felipe to Gonzaga road this winter. Knowing, that in the not too distant future Gonzaga will no
longer be the place it had been for so long.
What local population is going to benefit from that? Papa Fernandez? Coco's Corner?
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