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eetdrt88
Senior Nomad
Posts: 986
Registered: 2-20-2005
Location: Az/Ca/Baja
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yes i agree
when considering moving into a new community,always examine closely who will b your neighbor,preferrably a guy with one of those garage fridges that r
always full of ice cold beer and has a large flat screen tv with some type of sporting event on 24/7,sometimes if u are lucky he will have children
that always want to play with your children which is like free babysitting and he may even have a wife that is a good cook and if you show up around
dinner time youre always the guest of honor
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BajaNuts
Super Nomad
Posts: 1085
Registered: 5-11-2008
Location: eastern WA, the DRY side
Member Is Offline
Mood: no worry, no hurry....it's all good!
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I'm going to start another thread on "house karma"-
look for it-
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Donjulio
Nomad
Posts: 376
Registered: 5-19-2009
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One important thing to remember also when looking for property here. If you are going to purchase in a development, make sure that if "nothing" else
happens that you would be happy living there. When I show a client a development that includes amenities that are not in yet, I always ask them, "how
would you feel or like living here if you never get that pool or those tennis courts or that golf course?".
If you keep in mind that what you see right now is what you get then there is little room for disappoint down the line. Lots of developers (and yes a
lot of them have no idea what they are doing) have big dreams, strong vision and good intentions. Without the working capital to make it happen it
fails.
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Bajaboy
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4375
Registered: 10-9-2003
Location: Bahia Asuncion, BCS, Mexico
Member Is Offline
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The best quality about our place is our neighbors....they couldn't any better.
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arrowhead
Banned
Posts: 912
Registered: 5-5-2009
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajahowodd
I have to agree with one point made by Donjulio. That Loreto Bay is not a scam. The project was not envisioned for the purpose of stealing from
people. |
Maybe there is some kind of definitional problem with the word "scam". On the other thread, the poster said:
| Quote: |
A letter or email arrived several weeks ago telling her the project was 70% complete and would she forward her payment to the company. She emailed for
some pictures to show the work completed and was forwarded pictures of her home. She paid the payment due at that time. Two days ago,one of other
homeowners sent here pictures of her house and it is less than 20% completed . The company sent her pictures of another home that looked like her
floorplan and scammed her into making another payment.
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That is a scam. The lady was scammed. There are no two ways about it. You'll just have to wrap your mind around the concept.
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arrowhead
Banned
Posts: 912
Registered: 5-5-2009
Member Is Offline
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This is funny. On the one hand, we have one real estate agent, Paulclark, who advises buyers to make sure their Realtor is a member of AMPI. On the
other hand we have another real estate agent, Donjulio, who advises that AMPI means nothing. Neither is offering "advice". They are both doing
marketing here.
Then Donjulio tells us he advises his clients to consider if they would still buy if none of the "planned" amenities are ever put in by the developer.
The amenities are a major part of the marketing package the developer uses to induce people to buy his project, and the buyers are theorectically
paying for those "amenities" in their purchase price. So that is like asking, "Gee whiz, is it OK if we just defraud you into buying this property by
promising to provide amenities and then not deliver?"
I can guarantee you would never hear a real estate agent NOB ever saying anything like that.
And by the way, WTF is a "title report" in Mexico? There are no title plants in Mexico. I know what a "title report" means in the US. It means that is
the chain of title and all liens and claims for which the title insurance company is prepared to indemnify the buyer. But with no title insurance in
Mexico, and thus no indemnification from anybody, what good is a Mexican title report?
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longlegsinlapaz
Super Nomad
Posts: 1685
Registered: 11-18-2005
Location: La Paz
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajahowodd
I have to agree with one point made by Donjulio. That Loreto Bay is not a scam. The project was not envisioned for the purpose of stealing from
people. It was obviously focused on a certain type of potential buyer, and designed its marketing toward that group. That folks may criticize the
gringo enclave/ non-Mexican feel of the place, should understand that those are factors that appealed to those who invested. I would guess that the
developers over-reached with their original plans. And, as pointed out, when financing dried-up world-wide, unless they were scrupulously prudent with
their debt load, they were destined to fail. |
IMHO, the initial premise of the development wasn't a scam. But the horrendous mismanagement of funds which evolved into sending pics of a 70%
completed casa & passing it off to a client as their casa; while their actual casa is maybe 20% along, as "proof" to obtain
additional funds....THAT to me IS A SCAM! What would you call
it?
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JESSE
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3370
Registered: 11-5-2002
Member Is Offline
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I would say a lot of the projects that go wrong here in Baja are not planned scams. But, money flows in and out very quickly around here because this
area is full of people who come here only to make money. In the US, theres reputations to protect, etc. But here, many know they can come in, buy
cheap, sell ridiculously high, and get out. I personally donīt trust foreign developments, because of what i said previously. They can get out, blame
baja, the people, the mexican goverments, our laws, our courts, and go back home and keep working. Local developers may not be as flashy or present
themselves as professional, but they live here, have a reputation to protect, and they have a track record. Here in Mexico we do know wich developers
are honest, wich use shady materials to build their properties, etc etc
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Cypress
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7641
Registered: 3-12-2006
Location: on the bayou
Member Is Offline
Mood: undecided
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They had good intentions? How much $$ can we shake out of these idiots before they
get wise to us?
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JESSE
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3370
Registered: 11-5-2002
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by arrowhead
This is funny. On the one hand, we have one real estate agent, Paulclark, who advises buyers to make sure their Realtor is a member of AMPI. On the
other hand we have another real estate agent, Donjulio, who advises that AMPI means nothing. Neither is offering "advice". They are both doing
marketing here.
Then Donjulio tells us he advises his clients to consider if they would still buy if none of the "planned" amenities are ever put in by the developer.
The amenities are a major part of the marketing package the developer uses to induce people to buy his project, and the buyers are theorectically
paying for those "amenities" in their purchase price. So that is like asking, "Gee whiz, is it OK if we just defraud you into buying this property by
promising to provide amenities and then not deliver?"
I can guarantee you would never hear a real estate agent NOB ever saying anything like that.
And by the way, WTF is a "title report" in Mexico? There are no title plants in Mexico. I know what a "title report" means in the US. It means that is
the chain of title and all liens and claims for which the title insurance company is prepared to indemnify the buyer. But with no title insurance in
Mexico, and thus no indemnification from anybody, what good is a Mexican title report? |
AMPI means nothing, several members are not considered "fair" people by the locals. Remember, Mexicans do not communicate in the same way americans or
canadians do, we do not spread the word via email, or groups, etc. Here is word of mouth, little by little, neighboor to neighboor, it takes time and
the bad input of many different people to create a bad or suspicious reputation.
Stay away from people claiming connections, know how, etc thats all bull.
Ask Mexicans, different Mexicans, and the same names and opinions will come out everytime so you can make your decision.
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turtleandtoad
Senior Nomad
Posts: 730
Registered: 1-20-2005
Location: Wherever I park. See sig for current location.
Member Is Offline
Mood: Good if fishing
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I think Loreto Bay was doomed long before the economic turndown. Back when the Loreto Bay details was first released, I pointed out in my study on
the developers plans for the infrastructure (water/sewer/etc) that, unless they got a jump start on it so that it would be in place (or at least the
basic parts in place) before people started moving in, the whole house of cards would collapse.
I think the economy going into the dumps just speeded up the inevitable collapse.
I figured it would take a few years in courts with the good people of Loreto fighting for their right to the existing water supplies, the coastline
getting polluted by the sewage breakdowns, and the increasingly frequent brown-outs, before it collapsed from bad planning. And by that time there
wouldn't be any money to start building the infrastructure that they should have done right from the start.
But that's ancient history now.
Mike & Robin; Full-Time RV\'ers
37\' Georgetown w/3 slides & 275 Watts of Solar Power
06 Taco TRD
www.turtleandtoad.com
I am here
To paraphrase Frank Lloyd Wright; I\'m all in favor of keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of fools. Let\'s start with keyboards. --
Mike Dean |
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BajaGringo
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3922
Registered: 8-24-2006
Location: La Chorera
Member Is Offline
Mood: Let's have a BBQ!
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| Quote: | Originally posted by shari
do you want to live next to a crackhouse...or a guy who raises fighting c-cks...or a party animal...or a flophouse where the highway crews crash or
the baseball team house (or bajagringo...I've seen his sound system!!!:lol
probably not.
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You mean some of you people have a problem with Steely Dan, Boston or Charly Garcia coming at you from next door with 1K watts RMS pushing it through
some very large speakers?
I do take requests for what it's worth...
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bajaguy
Elite Nomad
Posts: 9247
Registered: 9-16-2003
Location: Carson City, NV/Ensenada - Baja Country Club
Member Is Offline
Mood: must be 5 O'clock somewhere in Baja
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| Quote: | Originally posted by BajaGringo
| Quote: | Originally posted by shari
do you want to live next to a crackhouse...or a guy who raises fighting c-cks...or a party animal...or a flophouse where the highway crews crash or
the baseball team house (or bajagringo...I've seen his sound system!!!:lol
probably not.
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You mean some of you people have a problem with Steely Dan, Boston or Charly Garcia coming at you from next door with 1K watts RMS pushing it through
some very large speakers?
I do take requests for what it's worth...
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How about "Silent Night"??????
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Woooosh
Banned
Posts: 5240
Registered: 1-28-2007
Location: Rosarito Beach
Member Is Offline
Mood: Luminescent Waves at Rosarito Beach
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| Quote: | Originally posted by BajaNuts
I'm going to start another thread on "house karma"-
look for it- |
who has the first dogma comment? How many years, beers, cheers and tears for a house to go from haunted to "good vibe"?
\"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing\"
1961- JFK to Canadian parliament (Edmund Burke)
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MitchMan
Super Nomad
Posts: 1856
Registered: 3-9-2009
Member Is Offline
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Follow up on turtleandtoad's comment:
Not sure, but I think the problem with big Mexican residential developments like Loreto Bay is that the developers spend a bunch on well thought-out
marketing and fail to get the construction financing required to complete the project. Instead, they start with meager insufficient startup capital,
start selling the promises outlined in the prospectus, get a rediculous unprotected down payment from a buyer, use that money to continue some
construction and pay for ongoing current operating expenses (including high salaries for the developer) and hope to get more deposits to continue
construction. It is nothing short of a ponzi scheme.
If you travel up and down the baja coast, you will see many, many uncompleted projects, both large and small. That has been the case for decades.
Not a new problem.
I think the wise thing to do is to buy your own lot (not ejido property) and have a new place constructed out of cinder block..especially now as costs
(due to current slow down in real estate activity) have gone down (exchange rate buys 30% more today than for the last ten years, there is plenty of
available local construction workers since they have stopped working on big projects).
Construction materials cost is about the same in Mexico as in the US (for the materials used in cinder block construction), but labor is lower due to
the exchange rate and due to labor availability. Mexican contractors will quote the same old $85 USD per sq foot of construction that they have for
the last few years, but they are not reflecting the lower labor cost of today in the $85 US dollars quote which is over 75% of the $85, so do some
tough bargaining. It costs about $20 to $25 per square foot for basic construction materials costs, the rest of the per sq foot cost is direct hands
on labor and the contractors fee. Direct hands on labor should run about $20 per sq foot, the rest is the contractor's fee for his administrative
management of the project and not for any actual construction labor hours. Do the math, the constractor is making a bundle.
I advise paying for the expensive title insurance provided by American companies on Mexican real estate. It is expensive, Stewart Title charges
approximately $1,800 for a Mexican Lawyer to do the title search (and they go way back in time in the their search and to many different sources for
title info) and then about $700 for the actual policy.
Hey, you can have a nice new basic 1,000 sq ft house constructed for $70,000 to $85,000 USD plus the cost of the land. I advise my friends and family
not to buy in a "resort project" on the beach and get stuck with a monthly association fee of over $200 per month for life, but to look for property
1/2 to 1 mile from the water in the town of Loreto on land that has city services (underground water & sewer, above ground electricity &
phone, concrete sidewalks and paved streets). That land sells for $80 to $120 USD per sq meter. Do the math.
By the way, AMPI means little in real experiencial terms. The fact is that Baja real estate agents and brokers are neither licensed nor tested by any
government or municipal agencies, have no code of ethics that are sworn to, practiced or enforced, nor are they subject to any educational
requirements or continuing education. Anyone can sell real estate. The only thing that matters is getting a sales commission.
[Edited on 6-18-2009 by MitchMan]
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Pollen
Newbie
Posts: 11
Registered: 6-11-2009
Member Is Offline
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I agree with MitchMan on LB.
Far more went into the niche marketing and publicity than into the real research and infrastructure that would fulfill the eco-promises.
I wonder how the Homeowners are going to pay to keep all the watering, maintenance, trash collection, security going.
How long before the sand and dirt from the dead dry golf course are blowing down the unpaved streets, and silting up the "canals"? What are they going
to do with the unfinished skeleton towers?
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longlegsinlapaz
Super Nomad
Posts: 1685
Registered: 11-18-2005
Location: La Paz
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by MitchMan
Follow up on turtleandtoad's comment:
Not sure, but I think the problem with big Mexican residential developments like Loreto Bay is that the developers spend a bunch on well thought-out
marketing and fail to get the construction financing required to complete the project. Instead, they start with meager insufficient startup capital,
start selling the promises outlined in the prospectus, get a rediculous unprotected down payment from a buyer, use that money to continue some
construction and pay for ongoing current operating expenses (including high salaries for the developer) and hope to get more deposits to continue
construction. It is nothing short of a ponzi scheme.
If you travel up and down the baja coast, you will see many, many uncompleted projects, both large and small. That has been the case for decades.
Not a new problem.
I think the wise thing to do is to buy your own lot (not ejido property) and have a new place constructed out of cinder block..especially now as costs
(due to current slow down in real estate activity) have gone down (exchange rate buys 30% more today than for the last ten years, there is plenty of
available local construction workers since they have stopped working on big projects).
Construction materials cost is about the same in Mexico as in the US (for the materials used in cinder block construction), but labor is lower due to
the exchange rate and due to labor availability. Mexican contractors will quote the same old $85 USD per sq foot of construction that they have for
the last few years, but they are not reflecting the lower labor cost of today in the $85 US dollars quote which is over 75% of the $85, so do some
tough bargaining. It costs about $20 to $25 per square foot for basic construction materials costs, the rest of the per sq foot cost is direct hands
on labor and the contractors fee. Direct hands on labor should run about $20 per sq foot, the rest is the contractor's fee for his
administrative management of the project and not for any actual construction labor hours. Do the math, the constractor is making a
bundle.
I advise paying for the expensive title insurance provided by American companies on Mexican real estate. It is expensive, Stewart Title charges
approximately $1,800 for a Mexican Lawyer to do the title search (and they go way back in time in the their search and to many different sources for
title info) and then about $700 for the actual policy.
Hey, you can have a nice new basic 1,000 sq ft house constructed for $70,000 to $85,000 USD plus the cost of the land. I advise my friends and family
not to buy in a "resort project" on the beach and get stuck with a monthly association fee of over $200 per month for life, but to look for property
1/2 to 1 mile from the water in the town of Loreto on land that has city services (underground water & sewer, above ground electricity &
phone, concrete sidewalks and paved streets). That land sells for $80 to $120 USD per sq meter. Do the math.
By the way, AMPI means little in real experiencial terms. The fact is that Baja real estate agents and brokers are neither licensed nor tested by any
government or municipal agencies, have no code of ethics that are sworn to, practiced or enforced, nor are they subject to any educational
requirements or continuing education. Anyone can sell real estate. The only thing that matters is getting a sales commission.
[Edited on 6-18-2009 by MitchMan] |
I disagree with your statement, which I highlighted above. If the contractor is paying Seguro Social as required by law that SOMEONE pay, then Seguro
Social adds a healthy roughly 40% of the overall labor costs & is built into the square meter price. Yes, the contractor has a built-in
fee/commission/his profit margin, and that's typically 20-30%. But your failure to address Seguro Social inflates what actually ends up in the
contractors' pocket.
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MitchMan
Super Nomad
Posts: 1856
Registered: 3-9-2009
Member Is Offline
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Very excellent point, longlegsinlapaz.
Actually, the payroll taxes are 42%, a little bit higher than what you wrote. I must admit, I do not have actualy knowledge of whether or not the
majority of the labor provided by contractors (especially the ones doing smaller jobs) are in fact paying all the required payroll taxes. I am
skeptical, however.
Using the numbers that I cited above, the 42% payroll taxes would reduce the contractor's take. However, using numbers in my example on my previous
post, if you do the math, that would leave the contractor 37% to 43% for his fee of the $85 USD per sq ft of construction, not 20-30% as you
mentioned.
The salient point is that the $85 per sq ft that contractors are quoting today is the same that they have been quoting last year and the year before
when the exchange rate was $10 to $11 pesos per dollar and hence are not reflecting the $14.4 rate of today. I seriously doubt that they are passing
on the rate differential to their employees. They aren't reflecting it to us foreigners when they quote the same per sq foot rate as last year when
the US dollar was weaker, why would I believe that they are passing the differential to their employees (or "subcontractors" if you know what I mean).
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Cypress
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7641
Registered: 3-12-2006
Location: on the bayou
Member Is Offline
Mood: undecided
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Loreto Bay? Good intentons or a major rip-off? Depends upon whether or not you like to play golf on a 2 acre course, sorta like running around in
circles. Goofy golf anyone? Not able to park your car at your casa? No problemo! You need the exercise. Hope your car will still be there when you
get back to where you left it.
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turtleandtoad
Senior Nomad
Posts: 730
Registered: 1-20-2005
Location: Wherever I park. See sig for current location.
Member Is Offline
Mood: Good if fishing
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I haven't been following the LB project recently. Did they even break ground on the RO water plant, the sewage treatment plant, the aeration pond
(where the were going to get water for the golf course) or the power distribution yard for handling the new High Tension lines that they were going to
bring in?
Last I heard, as far as the RO water plant, they had already floated the idea of tapping the existing water table by pumping from some wells near the
mountains instead of the RO plant. A cop out if I ever heard one.
Mike & Robin; Full-Time RV\'ers
37\' Georgetown w/3 slides & 275 Watts of Solar Power
06 Taco TRD
www.turtleandtoad.com
I am here
To paraphrase Frank Lloyd Wright; I\'m all in favor of keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of fools. Let\'s start with keyboards. --
Mike Dean |
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