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BajaBruno
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You are correct, I believe, that Mag Bay area is not part of a World Heritage site, as are some SOC areas and the Pacific whale areas further north.
However, Mexico is part of a treaty from eight years ago:
"Countries Join Forces To Protect Endangered Sea Turtles
On October 12, 2000 President Clinton signed the Inter-American Convention for the Protection and Conservation of Sea Turtles (IAC), the first
comprehensive international treaty for the protection of endangered sea turtles and their habitats.
To bring the convention into force, the IAC must be ratified by eight countries. Presently, seven nations, Venezuela, Peru, Mexico, Brazil, Costa
Rica, Ecuador and the U.S. have ratified it. Under the IAC participating countries agree to conserve sea turtle habitat, protect nesting beaches,
limit intentional and accidental capture, prohibit international trade in sea turtles and their products, and support sea turtle research.
The IAC addresses all the major threats to sea turtle survival: accidental and intentional capture, exploitation, and habitat destruction."
Enforcement is always the bugaboo.
Christopher Bruno, Elk Grove, CA.
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DianaT
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| Quote: | Originally posted by BajaBruno
You are correct, I believe, that Mag Bay area is not part of a World Heritage site, as are some SOC areas and the Pacific whale areas further north.
However, Mexico is part of a treaty from eight years ago:
"Countries Join Forces To Protect Endangered Sea Turtles
On October 12, 2000 President Clinton signed the Inter-American Convention for the Protection and Conservation of Sea Turtles (IAC), the first
comprehensive international treaty for the protection of endangered sea turtles and their habitats.
To bring the convention into force, the IAC must be ratified by eight countries. Presently, seven nations, Venezuela, Peru, Mexico, Brazil, Costa
Rica, Ecuador and the U.S. have ratified it. Under the IAC participating countries agree to conserve sea turtle habitat, protect nesting beaches,
limit intentional and accidental capture, prohibit international trade in sea turtles and their products, and support sea turtle research.
The IAC addresses all the major threats to sea turtle survival: accidental and intentional capture, exploitation, and habitat destruction."
Enforcement is always the bugaboo. |
Thanks---good information that has some reality behind it. I well imagine that enforcement is also a problem elsewhere. Often the biggest problem
with any of those type treaties is the lack of teeth---
While the enforcement is better in our area, the turtles are still, unfortunately, poached for food.
I do wonder, and hope that many of these were from the other researched cited here by Richard Nauman---not that I would not still feel it is tragic,
but at least they would not all be very current kills. Interesting articles, BTW
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fishbuck
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Maybe these guys can help:
http://www.seaturtle.org/
"A ship in harbor is safe, but that is not what ships are built for." J. A. Shedd.
A clever person solves a problem. A wise person avoids it. – Albert Einstein
"Life's a Beach... and then you Fly!" Fishbuck
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fishbuck
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The treaty:
http://www.seaturtle.org/iac/convention.shtml
"A ship in harbor is safe, but that is not what ships are built for." J. A. Shedd.
A clever person solves a problem. A wise person avoids it. – Albert Einstein
"Life's a Beach... and then you Fly!" Fishbuck
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fishbuck
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More treaty info:
http://www.seaturtle.org/iac/intro.shtml
"A ship in harbor is safe, but that is not what ships are built for." J. A. Shedd.
A clever person solves a problem. A wise person avoids it. – Albert Einstein
"Life's a Beach... and then you Fly!" Fishbuck
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Udo
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Thanks for posting all the e-mail addresses, WILDERONE. I made a group contact list and I WILL be sending them my feelings on these and other
fisheries subject.
Udo
Youth is wasted on the young!
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fishbuck
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I sent an email to Seaturtle.org:
We have received the following question:
Category: Inter-American_Convention
Question: There is a massive turtle kill documented on Magdalena Island in Baja California Sur, Mexico. How and to who can this be reported?
"A ship in harbor is safe, but that is not what ships are built for." J. A. Shedd.
A clever person solves a problem. A wise person avoids it. – Albert Einstein
"Life's a Beach... and then you Fly!" Fishbuck
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fishbuck
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Another email to seaturtle.org:
We have received the following question:
Category: Inter-American_Convention
Question: What is the penalty if a signer (Mexico) to the IAC allows excessive bycatch kills of seaturtles?
"A ship in harbor is safe, but that is not what ships are built for." J. A. Shedd.
A clever person solves a problem. A wise person avoids it. – Albert Einstein
"Life's a Beach... and then you Fly!" Fishbuck
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BajaBruno
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Unfortunately Fishbuck, if you read the treaty you will find that there are no penalties for violating the treaty. It is a "feel good" treaty where
all the signature nations get together, sing kumbaya, and talk about how good they are going to be, some with good intentions and some with no
intentions whatsoever.
Some countries have good intentions and then their politics change and they have bad or neutral intentions. The treaty is written so that it
will be signed, not so that it will be restrictive. The treaty does have certain requirements for shrimp boats (but no enforcement, of course), but
none for any other type of net boat. It is designed as sweet talk, not as a blunt instrument.
But, that does not mean that public pressure cannot be put on the signatories. Of course, then there is Shark Norma, so, who knows if anyone in
D.F. is listening.
Christopher Bruno, Elk Grove, CA.
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fishbuck
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Ya man, I know.
But let me tell you something. In 1977 I was a senior in highschool. And I was into "Save the Whales" big time.
I did my term paper on it. And that's the only reason I graduated! I was short a few credits.
But that made all the difference to the whales. Not me , but the 'Whales" movement.
Whales were still commercially hunted back then.
I even went whale watching from Cape Cod. When saw Fin whales. Baja has some too!
So speak out people! Let the world know you care about seaturtles. And whales, dophines, sharks, and even tuna.
Heck even sealions!
"A ship in harbor is safe, but that is not what ships are built for." J. A. Shedd.
A clever person solves a problem. A wise person avoids it. – Albert Einstein
"Life's a Beach... and then you Fly!" Fishbuck
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Osprey
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Not much talk about who did it, how and why. Not that simple. Do turtles lay their eggs on that beach? Did the killers get the eggs too or did the
turtles die before or during laying the eggs. Were they killed on the shore or in the water? Net boats? Pangas? Where did they sell the meat? Who
bought it and at what price? Maybe the turtles were not killed, died of some kind of disease. If the world hopes to find the bad guys on this one I
think we need a turtle Joe Friday. Thanks to Wilderone and you others who took the time to highlight this. That's what it will take to get somebody
interested in the rest of the story.
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wilderone
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Don't forget about how laws are made. CONCERNED PEOPLE create laws, change laws.
"Were they killed on the shore or in the water? Net boats? Pangas? Where did they sell the meat? Who bought it?"
And some uniform types asking those questions in town, authorities boarding fishing boats offshore, patrolling regularly, might be a first step.
Posters with these photos tacked up all over might let the perpetrators know that other people don't like what they're doing.
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wilderone
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not just a treaty:
http://www.seaturtle.org/mtn/archives/mtn89/mtn89p4.shtml
Broad legal protection of sea turtles in Mexico came with an Executive Order issued in 1990 by the Mexican Ministry of Fisheries and the Ministry of
Urban Development and Ecology (now SEMARNAP). The legislation states that the Mexican Federal Government strictly prohibits the pursuit, capture, and
extraction of any species of sea turtle on any beaches or in any federal waters. Article Three specifically states that: “the specimen of any species
of sea turtle incidentally captured...shall be returned to the sea, independent of its physical state, dead or alive.” (DOF, 31 May 1990
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Don Alley
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| Quote: | Originally posted by wilderone
Article Three specifically states that: “the specimen of any species of sea turtle incidentally captured...shall be returned to the sea, independent
of its physical state, dead or alive.” (DOF, 31 May 1990 |
And that's what's happening. Seiners, and in some areas long liners, are killing turtles. As long as the turtles are not retained the commercial
fishermen are within the law.
We have industrial scale fishing to supply our populations with fish, especially tuna. The old methods of jack pole fishing killed no turtles, but
produced fewer fish and lower profits. As long as we use current methods to supply fish to markets around the world the turtles are just in the way.
At least until the tuna are wiped out.
So, what's next? Mexico is planning to subsidize many more commercial seiners. Mexico has also attempted, through the so-called Shark norma, to expand
long line fishing. And Mexico is taking the US to arbitration, claiming unfair trade practices because the tuna from Mexico's dolphin killing seiners
are not granted "dolphin safe" labeling in the US. Such labeling could allow increased netting and harvesting of Mexican tuna, and increased
"...species of sea turtle incidentally captured... returned to the sea, independent of its physical state, dead or alive.”
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Bajajack
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When has anyone seen a mex fisherman return anything to the sea, they have but one rule.
If it's edible it's sellable.
\"take what you can, give nothing back!\"
We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the
American people.\'
Theodore Roosevelt 1907
We can have no \"50-50\" allegiance in this country. Either a man is an American and nothing else, or he is not an American at all.
Theodore Roosevelt
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shari
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Mood: there is no reality except the one contained within us "Herman Hesse"
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well Jack...Juan is mexican and here he is returning a turtle to the sea near Agua Verde after we had a good look at it to determine why it was so
weak swimming on the surface.
[Edited on 6-27-2009 by shari]
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ElFaro
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That report and photos of the "Sea Turtle Slaughter" from a MexFish.com submission generates more questions than answers for me. For one how did they
come up with the round number of 1000? Did they fan out, recon the area, and count groups of carcasses and then add them up?...nowhere does it say
anything like "we each counted groups of carcai and came up with about 800 or so and there were more to count". Secondly the photos don't look like
something one would take after riding ATVs down the beach...why are they black and white and why do they look like photos out of mag or text book?
They look awful professional for someone who hiked over the dunes to the location. Also no one from the group is in the photos and no landmarks to ID
the photo's location. As far as the subject matter in the photos...it looks to me those carcasses have been there for a long time...perhaps
years...maybe 10 years or more. It could be a few were dumped there each year by fisherman. The photos don't indicate that we are looking at around
a 1000 carcasses. Also the last photo of a turtle with head down in the water...what relevance does that photo have with the story? I'm certainly
not apologizing for turtle by-catch kill from nets but something about this report smacks of sensationalism...
Which brings me to the crucial issue here...and that is the veracity of the reports that are posted on MexFish.com. I am not here to bash
Mexfish.com...I occasionally peruse their weekly reports. Mexfish.com gathers and posts fishing reports passed on to them by individuals down
in Baja and else ware. However there is no way for them to independently verify the reports are current and the photos are recent. I have 1st hand
knowledge of this. Last year I was camping in Ensenada and decided to check out a sportfishing outfit who takes out Gringos for fishing trips. I
drove up, parked, went inside and in front of me was a wall of photos. The photos were of people holding their catch and smiling and all that. The
photos were arranged by years and months. So I got info on prices, departure times, boats, etc, etc, and left. After returning to my home from
camping I got onto Mexfish.com website and was checking out the fishing report. When I got to the Ensenada section this outfit was giving their
report of how the fishing was good the past week and had a photo in there of about 6 people all holding bonito and smiling...the caption read "these
people from LA caught these nice bonito at Todos Santos Island". Problem was I recognized the photo from the wall inside the outfitters office and
it was taken at least 1 or 2 years prior !! The outfitter simply sent in a report and stuffed in an old photo to drum up business...making it look
like those people just went fishing when in fact they went out 2 years prior. I now look at any reports on any website or Forums no matter where they
are sourced from with some suspicion so to speak.
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fishbuck
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The photos have names attached. So if you have doubts you could ask them about it.
"A ship in harbor is safe, but that is not what ships are built for." J. A. Shedd.
A clever person solves a problem. A wise person avoids it. – Albert Einstein
"Life's a Beach... and then you Fly!" Fishbuck
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Don Alley
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I know Bill and I know Ruben. Good, trusted sources. And I have heard reports of many dead turtles on those beaches for years, from other trusted
sources.
But I think that's the dominant response. Deny, excuse, dismiss. Gotta have those cans of tuna, cheap.
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wilderone
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For what it's worth, I received this reply from the Director-SEE Turtles to my email last week:
"Thanks for passing this along and for your desire to help save the turtles of Baja. Our co-founder, Dr. Wallace J. Nichols has been working with a
number of groups to solve this problem for years. Unfortunately this is not a new thing and researchers have been counting the turtles washing up at
Isla Magdalena and other spots in the region for a while now.
There are a lot of groups working on different aspects of the problem and its a lot more complicated than just arresting a couple of poachers. Many
of these turtles die in fishing nets and wash ashore with no real way of knowing where they came from or who is responsible. There are thousands of
square miles of oceans and all of the conservation groups and gov't officials can't cover that kind of area with any authority.
Please rest assured that groups like Grupo Tortuguero are working diligently to stop this problem and in many ways are succeeding. Numbers of turtles
in the region are actually on the rise again after a very long-term drop. SEE Turtles is working on one aspect of the problem, the lack of
alternatives to fishing in the region, by helping to build a market for turtle-based tourism where they become more valuable alive than dead to
fishermen and local communities. After one of our initial trips, we led a fundraising campaign that helped to retire fishing gear that was catching
hundreds of turtles each year.
There is no silver bullet here but conservation efforts are working and they could use your support. If you would like to donate, a wonderful
organization doing great work on this is Grupo Tortuguero, www.grupotortuguero.org."
Brad Nahill
Director, SEE Turtles
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