| Pages:
1
2
3 |
Pescador
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3587
Registered: 10-17-2002
Location: Baja California Sur
Member Is Offline
|
|
Thank you Don Alley for having the eyes to see this quiet little man going about feeding himself in the best way he knows how.
I have a very good friend who makes his living from the Sea of Cortez by selling whatever he can catch with a rod and reel. Although he is very
good at finding the fish there are lots of things he can not control like the wind, fluctuations of price at the market, red tides, migrations, etc,
but he manages to eke out a living even though he always seems to fall behind due to the outboard motor not running, or the day he went to the
hospital because a whale breached and fell on him in the panga which broke some ribs as well as breaking the panga. Because not all of the paperwork
is correctly done, he was unable to go out at all when the navy started checking licenses and registrations of the boats.
His father, brother and I all tried to convince him that he should move to Cabo and work with other members of the family with security or
landscaping since there was more money in Cabo than in his little village. Well, guess what, when things went flat in Cabo and everyone got laid off,
where did they return to. The little village and now my friend has 12 people living in the little house and the men are going out every day they can
with my friend to fish and try to make a little money to feed their families.
Now here I come, Mr. Sportfishing Norteamericano, who loves to catch fish and I get very indignant when I observe this native fisherman catching
every fish he can put in the boat. (Actually I put as many fish in his boat as I can). He gets upset at the guys who are using hookah diving rigs who
are going out and killing everything at night off of the reef, and they all get upset about the big boats dragging their nets and killing everything
in sight.
|
|
|
shari
Select Nomad
Posts: 13049
Registered: 3-10-2006
Location: bahia asuncion, baja sur
Member Is Offline
Mood: there is no reality except the one contained within us "Herman Hesse"
|
|
I'm sure every village has a "Wheelbarrow Man" of sorts. Here there are a few old timers who retired from the coop many moons ago and have since
burned through their pension and can only get cigarette money by snagging a few fish with a hand line or small net. I heard one of our old timers was
busted last week too...very sad and somehow wrong. Sure wish there were some exception clauses for our elders.
Problem is, this is illegal to sell their catch...bummer...problem with regulations is we want them to be fair for everyone which is nearly
impossible.
Maybe we could buy these guys a sports fishing license and somehow figure out how to trade his fish...give them to someone who might be kind enough to
buy him a carton of cigarettes. What is the solution?
|
|
|
Osprey
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3694
Registered: 5-23-2004
Location: Baja Ca. Sur
Member Is Offline
|
|
I'll bet you 3 shrimp tacos that one or more old Mexican laws still exist which allow pensioners to trade their catch for money for food for the
table. I'll bet a $10 lawyer could find the very phrase that discribes the legal (even in Spain) definition of "Sustainence". For example the
sustainence laws still in place allow Mexicans to catch reasonable amounts of fish for their tables without regard to limits (perhaps species), size,
licenses, permits, etc.
|
|
|
shari
Select Nomad
Posts: 13049
Registered: 3-10-2006
Location: bahia asuncion, baja sur
Member Is Offline
Mood: there is no reality except the one contained within us "Herman Hesse"
|
|
that would be wonderful...however i believe the problem here is that the cooperativas have consession rights to fish, lobster, abalone, clams etc. and
sure seems like nobody can sell any of that other than the coop.
You can sportfish but cannot sell or trade the booty. I really like the idea of an exception clause for elders...hope it exists...i'm gonna do some
sniffing around and perhaps other nomads can come up with something too.
|
|
|
BajaBad
Nomad
Posts: 115
Registered: 1-30-2007
Member Is Offline
|
|
The only solution is to ban the sale/export of fish from the Sea of Cortez (in cooperation with Japan who are the main buyers) and make commercial
fishing and shrimping illegal. There is no other solution IMHO.
Maybe with more reporting of illegal/criminal practices - routine throughout Baja - this will become more evident as it seems impossible to try and
enforce regulations that are routinely being violated. The devastation they cause is incalculable.
Phase-out commercial fishing over a two year period or so (stop renewing licenses, etc.) while creating plans for sustainable fisheries in locations
throughout Baja - where it may be feasible - in conjunction with Japan to meet their demand for supply. Give the out-of-work commercial fishermen
governmental support to create sustainable fisheries or work in the new industry if they choose to.
After an adjustment period and fair and ample warning - punish Mexican commercial fishing offenders like they punish Gringo offenders (ones without
licences on boat while fishing...) - confiscate their boats and never give them back. After a few of those I wonder how enforcement would be
respected and looked at by those who treat it like a joke presently?
I know it worked on the gringo end when we were in Baja - everyone took care to have licenses for all on board so as to not have the possibility of
having their boat confiscated...
Once commercial fishing is halted - the money that is now being used (with next to nil effect) to try and enforce regulations could be used to help
local fishermen maintain their trade (providing licenses and assistance where and when needed for basic sustenance) and regulate the trade for supply
& demand within Baja & Mexico - i.e. restaurants, etc.
Use Japans technology - perfected over 3 decades of research - to focus on 100% farmed bluefin tuna - one of the most sought-after species. Japan
could provide much of the funding and assistance to meet their demand for supply in conjunction with the Mexican government.
First step - start thinking of how and when to end commercial fishing in the Sea of Cortez... donīt think there is any other long-term, effective
solution.
|
|
|
flyfishinPam
Super Nomad
Posts: 1727
Registered: 8-20-2003
Location: Loreto, BCS
Member Is Offline
Mood: gone fishin'
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by BajaBad
Maybe with more reporting of illegal/criminal practices - routine throughout Baja - this will become more evident as it seems impossible to try and
enforce regulations that are routinely being violated. The devastation they cause is incalculable. |
couldn't let this slop by me-
its time to start calculating it because you are right it hasn't been done yet
now is the time
report, record, document, and log
I am working on it but I am also working a lot right now its our fishing season
but believe me things are about to change
|
|
|
Cypress
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7641
Registered: 3-12-2006
Location: on the bayou
Member Is Offline
Mood: undecided
|
|
Shari, Agree. They ought to cut the old guys some slack. 
|
|
|
Russ
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6742
Registered: 7-4-2004
Location: Punta Chivato
Member Is Offline
|
|
And where do you propose to get all the fish to feed this new increase in your tuna farming scheme? Fish farms whether on land or sea are so
inefficient and destructive they should be outlawed! We have had this discussion before. There is a point where you negotiate with industry, eco
folks and enforcement practices that allow each to have a piece of the fisheries and see a marked improvement in stocks. IMHO there are many laws that
are on the books that could work if there was an honest and effect enforcement system. What industry has done to the original intent of the law is a
travesty.
OOPS! someone take my soap box away 
Bahia Concepcion where life starts...given a chance!
|
|
|
Cypress
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7641
Registered: 3-12-2006
Location: on the bayou
Member Is Offline
Mood: undecided
|
|
Russ, Wish your soap box was a little higher. You're just telling it like it is. The Sea of Cortez fisheries is in serious trouble. Hooka divers, gill
nets, seiners, maybe even greedy sports fishermen, they're all taking their toll.
|
|
|
BajaBad
Nomad
Posts: 115
Registered: 1-30-2007
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by Russ
And where do you propose to get all the fish to feed this new increase in your tuna farming scheme? Fish farms whether on land or sea are so
inefficient and destructive they should be outlawed! |
Russ, you should do some research. Fish farming that does not rely on wild stock is viable. Nothing close to perfect, and your frame of reference
may be the "farms" that are - according to researchers - more accurately "ranches". Do a little Google searching and reading and I think you may
understand the point a bit more - but I donīt feel itīs my job to educate you right now - sorry & too busy!
For a quick start - try to visualize/understand the difference between what damage a penned-area managed fish farm could do compared to gill nets and
others that scrape the ocean floor destroying everything in its path... in protected natural reserves.
| Quote: | | We have had this discussion before. There is a point where you negotiate with industry, eco folks and enforcement practices that allow each to have a
piece of the fisheries and see a marked improvement in stocks. |
Maybe you could outline that for the benefit of everyone on lthis thread a little better. What point? What enforcement practices? What do you mean
by a piece of the fisheries? Then explain how that would make a 'marked improvement in stocks'.
Not trying to push your buttons!! If you have a good solution then think it through - carefully and thoroughly - so we can all understand what in the
heck you are talking about. The above sounds like mental hogwash, completely ignoring the realities that are present today. Their is enforcement -
do you think it is working? The Billfish Foundation does amazing work yet the last I read they wrote about "1" illegal fishermen reported and fined -
who I think it was said threatend to kill a bunch of folks if I remember correctly (donīt quote me on that).
You would be a GREAT person to lead the calvary in protecting Bahia Conception - obviously are concerned and movitated. Contact SeaWatch or a local
person to start organizing a local vigilance program?
Just a suggestion, feel this is getting hostile so out a here!!!
Cheers, BajaBad
Relocation & Real Estate Guide - www.vivalabaja.com
Baja Blog - vivalabaja.blogspot.com
|
|
|
BajaBad
Nomad
Posts: 115
Registered: 1-30-2007
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by flyfishinPam
now is the time
report, record, document, and log
I am working on it but I am also working a lot right now its our fishing season
but believe me things are about to change |
Baja is fortunate to have folks like you - hope you are right-on about things starting to change (from my limited understanding of the situation!)
|
|
|
Sharksbaja
Elite Nomad
Posts: 5814
Registered: 9-7-2004
Location: Newport, Mulege B.C.S.
Member Is Offline
|
|
SOS
That stands for, oh you know already. The interesting but frightening statement made about catching baitfish in the SOC for the pens in Ensenada
underscores the SOS statement. Do any of the govt. agencies realize that this move indicates the worst. That the tuna pens have priority over any and
all "other" fishing? Idiots!
The taking of local baitfish from the areas near Ensenada are wreaking havoc. Soon the waters will far short of the ability to sustain pelagics and
bottom fish as well. Unuseable habitat from elevated ammonia, loss of all seafloor species in the area. Zero baitfish.
Tuna navigating from the sea of Japan make cross-Pacific travels that take them to the Ensenada/Punta Banda area then they turn north to follow the
temp gradient where they seek out their food source(s).
As this temperature line wavers near shore or out to sea,the tuna follow it. The big tuna boats already know where they will be, hence the success of
the "tuna fattening" pens. They just scoop them up....for OTHER COUNTRIES benefit.
This practice left unchecked(like right now) is doing decades of damage at the blessing of the Mex govt. If they gave a real ratsass about keeping
the ocean viable then this would be of the first to dismember. That and the fleets assembled off the historically troubled BOC.
SOS is exactly what is happening imho. It is so obvious to me that there really is a shortage of govt concern. It could be that there are gears
starting to turn but man, they better get real busy.
Good points brought up regarding the enforcement and interpretation of same. It all needs rewriting....today.
DON\'T SQUINT! Give yer eyes a break!
Try holding down [control] key and toggle the [+ and -] keys
Viva Mulege!
Nomads\' Sunsets
|
|
|
Skeet/Loreto
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4709
Registered: 9-2-2003
Member Is Offline
|
|
Please take this post in a Positive Manner.
The Sea of Cortez is not Ruined. I take exception to those that say those words when and If you would go and spend some time on that Sea you would
understand.
The last "Cycle" started when large numbers of Squid were taken out of the Cortez for about 4 years in a row.{1999,2000}. This removal cause a change
in which multidutes of fish moved out to other places in the Pacific. This cause a decline in the number of "Sports Fishing being caught and reported-
As there are not but about 1.4 th of the numer of Sports Fisherman coming to the Cortez.
Sharks moved out so the Commerical fisherman moved out for several years. But. starting in January of 08 the Bait came back, The Squid came back, The
Yellowtail came back and a whole bunch of Sardines was what brought them. Sports Fishing has and is still Fantastic.
Now when this started happening the Shark Fisherman really got turn on, The Big Sieners are back.
Please , all of you Cortez fisherman--When was the last time you saw the Big Sieners???
The cycle will continue.
I was there a couple of Months ago and the Fishing is Great, Just don't go out when the Barometer is falling.
It would be great if all of the People supporting thier Adjenda would gpo take a Month or two on the Cortez, fish with an old time Pangaero and really
look at the Sea, then come back and report your findings.
Skeet.Loreto
|
|
|
Russ
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6742
Registered: 7-4-2004
Location: Punta Chivato
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
Please take this post in a Positive Manner.
The Sea of Cortez is not Ruined. I take exception to those that say those words when and If you would go and spend some time on that Sea you would
understand.
The last "Cycle" started when large numbers of Squid were taken out of the Cortez for about 4 years in a row.{1999,2000}. This removal cause a change
in which multidutes of fish moved out to other places in the Pacific. This cause a decline in the number of "Sports Fishing being caught and reported-
As there are not but about 1.4 th of the numer of Sports Fisherman coming to the Cortez.
Sharks moved out so the Commerical fisherman moved out for several years. But. starting in January of 08 the Bait came back, The Squid came back, The
Yellowtail came back and a whole bunch of Sardines was what brought them. Sports Fishing has and is still Fantastic.
Now when this started happening the Shark Fisherman really got turn on, The Big Sieners are back.
Please , all of you Cortez fisherman--When was the last time you saw the Big Sieners???
The cycle will continue.
I was there a couple of Months ago and the Fishing is Great, Just don't go out when the Barometer is falling.
It would be great if all of the People supporting thier Adjenda would gpo take a Month or two on the Cortez, fish with an old time Pangaero and really
look at the Sea, then come back and report your findings.
Skeet.Loreto |
You've expressed some of these findings before. But I have not spoken to one other person to share your findings. For all our sakes I hope you're
right. The people I talk to are pangeros & sport fishermen and two are fish buyers in this area. People that spend a lot of time on that Sea.
Bahia Concepcion where life starts...given a chance!
|
|
|
Cypress
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7641
Registered: 3-12-2006
Location: on the bayou
Member Is Offline
Mood: undecided
|
|
Russ, Skeets attitude is lost in the 50's or 60's. It' a waste of time to debate the present fishing conditions in the Sea of Cortez with him. He has
a very myopic view, but he's entitled to it.
|
|
|
Don Alley
Super Nomad
Posts: 1997
Registered: 12-4-2003
Location: Loreto
Member Is Offline
|
|
a few comments...
Tuna pens:
I was fishing with a local photographer, our goal to get some shots of leaping dorado. And the fishing was good; the captain and I were hooked up,
handing rods back and forth, constantly.
We had seen a tuna boat in the distance on our way out, and saw its helicopter fly a large, circular pattern. So when, as we were returning to Loreto,
we saw the boat stopped north of Isla Coronado, we couldn't help but think: tuna? Here? But as we approached the boat, and watched them haul in their
net and their catch, it was only the lowly barrilete skipjack, a fish few care to eat. Strange that they would go to all that trouble, using a modern
seiner and helicopter for barrilete.
But I had just read an account about tuna pens located in Australia, where half of the feed for their tuna comes from central California.
The moral, so to speak, is that tuna pens create a world wide demand for fish meal and fish products. Pens in Ensenada, the Mediterranean or Australia
create markets that can consume fish from anywhere.
Hand liners:
There are these guys fishing out of the Loreto marina. I don't know their names, but I see them out fishing frequently, and see them unload their
catch at the marina. These guys can fish. They're good. Most of us who do fish know that while luck plays a role, skill, knowledge and experience pay
the bigger dividends. And these guys bring home the bacon. They don't bring in the mostly mish-mash of a little bit of everything that the net guys
bring in, but what they do bring is pretty primo. Lots of huachinango snapper. Some Tijeretas. If there are yellowtail, they'll bring them in too. So,
after seeing them bring in a couple of boxes of huachinango, what do you think is being served at the restaurant we go to that night? Parrot fish,
either net caught or speared, and likely caught illegally.
There is a great need for research and data in marine fisheries. Most of my fishing activism had those luxuries, dealing in fresh water. But the
common wisdom is that hook and line fisheries do less damage that nets, have lower bycatch, and come closer to sustainability even with little
regulation.
Part of my frustration is that I am a fishing generalist; I like to explore the variety that the waters have to offer, rather than being satisfied
with just numbers or pounds of fish. Some will consider the arrival of large numbers of migrating pelagics as a cure-all for any local fishing
problems, real or imagined. As a referendum, of sorts, validating current practices, sweeping all sins away. But after the visiting tourist fishermen
have left, perhaps returning home with stories of unending numbers of dorado and sailfish, I'll be poking along the heavily netted shores of Carmen or
Monserrate looking for a toro, a decent sized roosterfish, maybe a golden jack, and wishing I could at least catch (and release) an occasional
cabrilla over 12 inches while I do it. I catch a few fish, and I enjoy the day, but I've seen days when such fishing rivaled the wide-open offshore
bites, over 40 years ago, and have not seen days like that since.
|
|
|
flyfishinPam
Super Nomad
Posts: 1727
Registered: 8-20-2003
Location: Loreto, BCS
Member Is Offline
Mood: gone fishin'
|
|
Hi Skeet
right now I have been up since 02:30 because I am working on a few flyers regarding the seiners that have been working our area. I am hoping to unite
the local fishermen through our Pescadores Vigilantes program. I am also hoping that once it catches on here and garners attention, that we can send
representatives to our surrounding areas and unite the folks there too, maybe all of BCS eventually then BC then Sonora, Sinaloa and....
| Quote: | Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
Please take this post in a Positive Manner.
The Sea of Cortez is not Ruined. I take exception to those that say those words when and If you would go and spend some time on that Sea you would
understand.
The last "Cycle" started when large numbers of Squid were taken out of the Cortez for about 4 years in a row.{1999,2000}. This removal cause a change
in which multidutes of fish moved out to other places in the Pacific. This cause a decline in the number of "Sports Fishing being caught and reported-
As there are not but about 1.4 th of the numer of Sports Fisherman coming to the Cortez.
Sharks moved out so the Commerical fisherman moved out for several years. But. starting in January of 08 the Bait came back, The Squid came back, The
Yellowtail came back and a whole bunch of Sardines was what brought them. Sports Fishing has and is still Fantastic.
Now when this started happening the Shark Fisherman really got turn on, The Big Sieners are back.
Please , all of you Cortez fisherman--When was the last time you saw the Big Sieners???
|
I saw three yesterday and one of them used their spotter heliocopter to chase my husbands boat away from seeing what they were hauling in the seine.
I am currently collecting photos and testimony from yesterdays events. The link below shows one of the seiners that has been working this area since
mid May:
http://www.bajabigfish.com/pescadoresvigilantes.html
right now your buddy Captain Alejo is one peeed off individual and so are the other captains, we are all peeed and ready to hold our civil servants
responsible for their actions.
no the sea is not ruined but the key word is YET. give it time unchecked like this with heads turning and money changing hands and it will be ruined.
I give it less than ten years.
my business is on the line but I do not care. We have good fishing now and we want to keep it that way and we want these huge industrial boats out of
here.
| Quote: | Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
The cycle will continue.
|
certainly not if this continues!
| Quote: | Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
I was there a couple of Months ago and the Fishing is Great, Just don't go out when the Barometer is falling.
|
we fish year around and I have personally made my living and supported my family for 14 years off the bounty of the SOC off Loreto. pressure
conditions dictate fish feeding behaviour but the barometer rule of thumb has the opposite affect in summer and in winter, simply put changes affect
them. when the fish go off their bite you can bet the farm our weather conditions will be changing, they know.
| Quote: | Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
It would be great if all of the People supporting thier Adjenda would gpo take a Month or two on the Cortez, fish with an old time Pangaero and really
look at the Sea, then come back and report your findings.
Skeet.Loreto |
my agenda is the truth and fairness. thats it I gain nothing financially by doing these things I just hate injustice and at this point I have the
capacity to make some serious changes and I'm gonna do it, over.
|
|
|
fishbuck
Banned
Posts: 5318
Registered: 8-31-2006
Member Is Offline
|
|
I have got to make it to Loreto and fish with you guys Pam! I'm not much into causes but this one I can sign on to!
I suggest other fishing Nomads go there and fish too. Let them know we care!
"A ship in harbor is safe, but that is not what ships are built for." J. A. Shedd.
A clever person solves a problem. A wise person avoids it. â Albert Einstein
"Life's a Beach... and then you Fly!" Fishbuck
|
|
|
Don Alley
Super Nomad
Posts: 1997
Registered: 12-4-2003
Location: Loreto
Member Is Offline
|
|
OK, I'm in Montana now where I keep a bigger soapbox.
Fish are complicated. There are many kinds, in many habitats with many different ways of surviving. And much of what they do is underwater, and even
what we can observe often does not make sense. And we have yet to find a fish who, like a human, can tell the truth, or even lies, about what he's
doing.
So it's easier to manage fishermen. We can see what they are doing, and if we are so inclined, listen to their stories. Or read their internet posts.
We can also divide them into groups, and attempt to calculate the relative economic, political and moral strengths of each group.
So, we could have management plans that examine particular habitats, and provides for regulations that could allow sustainable uses for the fish in
that habitat. Perhaps for sport, or, where feasible, some commercial use. But, it takes research, monitoring, and enforcement.
Or, we can manage people, with emphasis on categories of people, and their economic, political and social power. Like, lets just ban all commercial
fishing. Or, take Laguna Beach. Likening the sin of sportfishing to smoking, their city council has asked the state to ban all sport fishing within
three miles of the city's shore. Since the state is already committed to banning fishing in 30% or so of its prime inshore waters, that could happen.
So when I ask about the Wheelbarrow Man.... Should he still be allowed to fish?
If his methods are unsustainable, if they have an impact that take food or money from the mouths of others, and will eventually doom even his own
efforts, then, no. We have come to the point where many resources can no longer be free for the taking by anyone, anytime, anyplace, by any means.
There simply are to many people chasing to few resources. But perhaps his small net, and its yield of perhaps a few mullet, is sustainable. Then the
answer would be yes.
But when I look at trends in environmental laws, regulation and enforcement, in and out of Mexico, I suspect that the argument will boil down to this:
Nets are bad and should be illegal, vs. which netters have the economic or political power to continue to net regardless of the consequences.
Maybe there are enough Wheelbarrow men that the populist politicians of Mexico will support them. Or, as Dan suggests, they will become the whipping
boy for commercial overfishing, their nets the first taken, as they watch the working super-seiners cruise on by, their holds brimming with tons of
fish.
Bet the Wheelbarrow Man, wading in up to his chin, never thought he'd be discussed on the internet. But who knows what he may have at home. What do
you think, Mac or PC?
|
|
|
Dave
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6005
Registered: 11-5-2002
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by Don Alley
Or, we can manage people, with emphasis on categories of people, and their economic, political and social power. Like, lets just ban all commercial
fishing.
|
Or, simply ask that those concerned with overfishing to not buy fish and convince their neighbors to do the same.
Commercial fishing isn't a hobby. The rape of the seas will continue as long as there is a market...
And the fish are still around.
|
|
|
| Pages:
1
2
3 |
![[*]](images/xmbforum/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
