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JESSE
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3370
Registered: 11-5-2002
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
I wonder if people will refuse to stop at military checkpoints in Mexico now?
I mean, they are 'picking on us' just because we 'drive a car'... and 'some cars' can transport drugs or guns... but not everyone... it just isn't
fair that the make us pull over and search us like we are illegals! WAAAAA! WAAAAA! 
In the U.S., we have DUI checkpoints set up at night... and we are stopped.. and checked to see if we are illegally driving (drunk or without a
license)... They just pick on us... waaaaa waaaaa! 
(in both cases, Mexico and the U.S., if you are not breaking the law, you have NOTHING to fear... Same is true IF they did stop you because of your
'looks'! I know I have been stopped in Mexico by the police just because my car and I look like we are Americans!!!  |
Bullchit! what ever checkpoints you run into in Mexico, we Mexicans and all other people from all over the world also deal with. There is no special
laws aimed at Americans only.
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rts551
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6699
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You really don't have a clue do you. There is no state law. The state legislature here just created one to empower the state and local Police by
making it a state crime. . The only law currently on the books is a federal law enforceable by federal agents, Read this NEW state law. it goes way
beyond the federal laws. Even our very conservative, white governor had problems with this one. read her statements as she signed it.
| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
The law is already on the books... this is about actually enforcing the law... doing the will of the people of Arizona.
No law in America targets a race of people... it only targets law breakers, no matter what you look like. People from Mexico can be blonde or red
heads with freckles, too.
Why is it some think that Mexicans are somewhat less able to immigrate here legally over ALL other nationalities... that only they should be allowed
to break the law and do what-ever they wish in the U.S.? I believe Mexicans are just as able as ANY OTHER people to join our society and become
Americans the very same way ALL others have, legally! |
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Bajaboy
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4375
Registered: 10-9-2003
Location: Bahia Asuncion, BCS, Mexico
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DENNIS
| Quote: | Originally posted by shari
I sure hope mexico doesnt retaliate with a similar law. |
They don't need a law to retaliate.
I think this "law" is being misread by some here. I don't think it could be as N-zi-ish as some see it. I'm not defending it...I just don't think
it's fully understood by everybody here. |
I agree with you Dennis. I think some people are taking this a bit far. My understanding is that if someone is stopped for a citation and/or
breaking the law then the officer has the right and duty to verify the citizenship of that person.
As far as I can tell, the Immigration people at GN profile. They always ask me for my paperwork but don't seem to ask any of the dark skinned people
in other cars.
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rts551
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6699
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajaboy
| Quote: | Originally posted by DENNIS
| Quote: | Originally posted by shari
I sure hope mexico doesnt retaliate with a similar law. |
They don't need a law to retaliate.
I think this "law" is being misread by some here. I don't think it could be as N-zi-ish as some see it. I'm not defending it...I just don't think
it's fully understood by everybody here. |
I agree with you Dennis. I think some people are taking this a bit far. My understanding is that if someone is stopped for a citation and/or
breaking the law then the officer has the right and duty to verify the citizenship of that person.
As far as I can tell, the Immigration people at GN profile. They always ask me for my paperwork but don't seem to ask any of the dark skinned people
in other cars. |
They can and do already question citizenship if stopped for some other infraction . What this new State law does is gives the police the right to
check for paperwork based on probable cause without any other infraction. Thus the training they say is necessary. What constitutes probable cause
to stop a potential illegal without using race as a criteria? Hah. going to be interesting. But this is the state that was the last to recognize
MLK day, repealed it concealed weapon permit requirement, and wants to allow guns (for self-protection) in the schools....etc
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Pescador
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3587
Registered: 10-17-2002
Location: Baja California Sur
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| Quote: | Originally posted by JESSE
bullpuckey! what ever checkpoints you run into in Mexico, we Mexicans and all other people from all over the world also deal with. There is no special
laws aimed at Americans only. |
Jesse, I hate to break it to you this way but there is discrimination on both sides of the border. I have been pulled over and hit up for a traffic
violation for no other reason than the fact that I am a foreign tourist and a gringo. When they found out that I spoke Spanish like a native and knew
exactly what was going on, we both got a laugh out of the situationa and they went on to make another traffic violation that had a better chance of
paying off the "bite", which you yourself have addressed in the past. I know it exists on the south side of the border as well as the north side and
I accept that it happens and the only thing that I can do to combat it is to be able to communicate and know what my rights and responsibilities are
in any case.
You are right in your assumption that some people will be subject to more interrogation than normal with the passage of this law. One only has to
look at how we treated Japanese-American citizens during to war to understand that. But to hide behind the issue that there may be some subtle
discrimination occuring and therefore the Arizona people should do nothing is not the answer either. There has been a big problem created by allowing
people who are not legal into the United States and then providing all kinds of services and support when those states are all going bankrupt is the
best description of stupidity I have ever encountered. This issue obviously needs to be enforced at every level of government and this is only a step
in that direction.
I have personally witnessed the eviction of several residents this year who were living in Mexico without the benefit of visas ( FM3 or FM2) and had
been here for over a year or two. Immigration came in, no questions asked, and requested their papers and when they could not provide the papers they
were told that they had two days to vacate or they would be arrested. Now they came under suspicion because they were White and had not left the
country for over two years. So someone could make a good case for racial profiling here, but the real issue is that they chose not to follow the laws
of Mexico and were subject to deportation because they did not have legal papers.
Where I live in Colorado had a large contingent of Vietnamese people who had come in illegaly. This situation came to the attention of the
authorites who started checking papers and had to go to great lengths to get these people charged and deported. So someone who was looking at things
from a different perspective could have certainly made the case that they only chose to identify this group of people because of their
characteristics, but the core issue is that they were there illegally and it was the responsiblity of the law enforcement people to enforce the laws
that existed. Did the fact that the people involved had language issues and looked a certain way come into play? Probably, but the real underlying
issue was that they were in the country illegaly and when checked, could not produce the proper documents.
So, it is unfortunate that people are potentially treated differently due to their physical characteristics, but if you follow that to its logical
conclusion then the illegal immigrants have set up a situation that has caused a lot of discriminination to happen to all Hispanic peoples. So if
they would all just quietly pack up and leave, people could come to deal with all the legal Hispanic peoples in a spirit of love and caring and not
even suspect that they might be there illegally.
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rts551
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6699
Registered: 9-5-2003
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Pescador. You just made the case to throw out the Arizona law. IT is illegal to discriminate in the US. Mexico does not have such a law that I am
aware of.
| Quote: | Originally posted by Pescador
| Quote: | Originally posted by JESSE
bullpuckey! what ever checkpoints you run into in Mexico, we Mexicans and all other people from all over the world also deal with. There is no special
laws aimed at Americans only. |
Jesse, I hate to break it to you this way but there is discrimination on both sides of the border. I have been pulled over and hit up for a traffic
violation for no other reason than the fact that I am a foreign tourist and a gringo. When they found out that I spoke Spanish like a native and knew
exactly what was going on, we both got a laugh out of the situationa and they went on to make another traffic violation that had a better chance of
paying off the "bite", which you yourself have addressed in the past. I know it exists on the south side of the border as well as the north side and
I accept that it happens and the only thing that I can do to combat it is to be able to communicate and know what my rights and responsibilities are
in any case.
You are right in your assumption that some people will be subject to more interrogation than normal with the passage of this law. One only has to
look at how we treated Japanese-American citizens during to war to understand that. But to hide behind the issue that there may be some subtle
discrimination occuring and therefore the Arizona people should do nothing is not the answer either. There has been a big problem created by allowing
people who are not legal into the United States and then providing all kinds of services and support when those states are all going bankrupt is the
best description of stupidity I have ever encountered. This issue obviously needs to be enforced at every level of government and this is only a step
in that direction.
I have personally witnessed the eviction of several residents this year who were living in Mexico without the benefit of visas ( FM3 or FM2) and had
been here for over a year or two. Immigration came in, no questions asked, and requested their papers and when they could not provide the papers they
were told that they had two days to vacate or they would be arrested. Now they came under suspicion because they were White and had not left the
country for over two years. So someone could make a good case for racial profiling here, but the real issue is that they chose not to follow the laws
of Mexico and were subject to deportation because they did not have legal papers.
Where I live in Colorado had a large contingent of Vietnamese people who had come in illegaly. This situation came to the attention of the
authorites who started checking papers and had to go to great lengths to get these people charged and deported. So someone who was looking at things
from a different perspective could have certainly made the case that they only chose to identify this group of people because of their
characteristics, but the core issue is that they were there illegally and it was the responsiblity of the law enforcement people to enforce the laws
that existed. Did the fact that the people involved had language issues and looked a certain way come into play? Probably, but the real underlying
issue was that they were in the country illegaly and when checked, could not produce the proper documents.
So, it is unfortunate that people are potentially treated differently due to their physical characteristics, but if you follow that to its logical
conclusion then the illegal immigrants have set up a situation that has caused a lot of discriminination to happen to all Hispanic peoples. So if
they would all just quietly pack up and leave, people could come to deal with all the legal Hispanic peoples in a spirit of love and caring and not
even suspect that they might be there illegally. |
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JESSE
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3370
Registered: 11-5-2002
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Pescador
| Quote: | Originally posted by JESSE
bullpuckey! what ever checkpoints you run into in Mexico, we Mexicans and all other people from all over the world also deal with. There is no special
laws aimed at Americans only. |
Jesse, I hate to break it to you this way but there is discrimination on both sides of the border. I have been pulled over and hit up for a traffic
violation for no other reason than the fact that I am a foreign tourist and a gringo. |
I have several american friends who are locals, and know that once you get Mexican licence plates, the cops bother you as much as the rest of us.
Thus, making it very clear, that the reason you are being pulled over, is your foreign licence plates, not your race. Theres a lot of blond blue eyed
Mexicans here in La Paz, and they never have a problem.
In Arizona, you can get pulled over simply because you "look" Mexican, and nothing else.
There is no comparison at all.
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JESSE
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3370
Registered: 11-5-2002
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Pescador
| Quote: | Originally posted by JESSE
bullpuckey! what ever checkpoints you run into in Mexico, we Mexicans and all other people from all over the world also deal with. There is no special
laws aimed at Americans only. |
So, it is unfortunate that people are potentially treated differently due to their physical characteristics, but if you follow that to its logical
conclusion then the illegal immigrants have set up a situation that has caused a lot of discriminination to happen to all Hispanic peoples.
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Thanks for basically saying, yes, this is wrong, its racist, but since most illegals are Mexicans, the rights of legal law abiding citizens do not
count, just because of their skin color.
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Donjulio
Nomad
Posts: 376
Registered: 5-19-2009
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Sad!
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Mexicorn
Senior Nomad
Posts: 772
Registered: 9-15-2009
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Dear Doug
First of all let me thank you for permitting this issue into the forum. I believe both governments are watching this issue on your website very
closely. So if that is the case I must refer to what I saw on that other website (Margie’s madness). A truck driver being put through the ringer
because he didn’t have his birth certificate and his skin color (providing that was not a set up). I think that this is truly obscene! How many of us
Americans live here in Baja that are going to take the heat due to this new law? It’s unmentionable! I’ve already had 100% Mexican friends ask me
“What’s going on with that new law in AZ?” Fellow Nomads, I feel as though we are being led along this issue, since it has not been closely looked
at since the Nixon administration. Thank you Doug for allowing this to addressed here in Nomads you are a noble man. So back to my original point
what a better way to divide and concur us Americans through the United States ? Well I say No! to this new law which will end up being nothing more
than the end to United States as we know it.
Que Feo?
Did Arnold have something to do with this I understand his Father was part of the Brown Shirts?
Word up-
El Mexicorn
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JESSE
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3370
Registered: 11-5-2002
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Canadians, beware of Arizona Senate Bill 1070
By: Pulat Yunusov · April 22, 2010
How far can a government go to fight illegal migration? One government is flying right into uncharted territory if we are to judge by public reaction
and media commentary. Arizona’s legislature is considering a bill that allows Arizona police to arrest people on a “reasonable suspicion” of their
unlawful immigration status. Many groups ripped into the proposed law, and the head of the Los Angeles Roman Catholic archdiocese even compared it
with “German N-zi and Russian Communist techniques.” Others defended the legislation citing high rates of illegal immigration in Arizona. The bill has
several controversial provisions but let’s look closely at some detention powers it gives to the police. These changes can put Canadians lawfully
travelling to Arizona at serious risk of detention.
Senate Bill 1070, also known as “Support Our Law Enforcement and Safe Neighborhoods Act,” allows the police to verify immigration status of a person,
with whom they have “lawfully” come into “contact,” if they have a “reasonable suspicion” that the person is an illegal alien. The obvious
interpretation of this provision is that the police will detain the person while they verify the status. This is clear from both the context of this
provision and the purpose of the statute. The bill as a whole aims to ramp up enforcement of federal immigration laws. Its purpose is “attrition
through enforcement.” The legislature hardly expects the police to release suspected illegals while they verify their status. Besides, the statute
gives the police powers to turn illegal aliens over to federal authorities. It is hardly reasonable to expect Arizona police to let suspected illegals
go while they check on their status. So verification will mean detention or arrest.
Bill 1070 sets out the following detention scheme. First, there must be a lawful contact between you and the police. Second, the police must form a
“reasonable suspicion” that you are an illegal alien. Third, they must make a “reasonable attempt” to determine your “immigration status.” Fourth, if
they can’t determine your status on the spot, they will contact the federal government. As you have already seen, the last stage will likely involve
your arrest until the police hears from the federal immigration authorities.
A “lawful contact” with the police happens pretty much any time an officer can perceive you with his or her senses. If the officer can hear you, see
you, or smell you, that’s a lawful contact, so it doesn’t even have to be a stop or a question. But if you’re driving, there are plenty of lawful
opportunities to pull you over. Also, asking you a question is not unlawful but it’s a contact. All of that may give the officer enough information to
form a “reasonable suspicion” that you are an illegal alien.
What information is enough for that “reasonable suspicion” is the crux of the matter. The proposed law prohibits relying solely on “race, color or
national origin … except to the extent permitted by the United States or Arizona Constitution.” It means the police can rely on these factors as long
as they are not the only factors. And what about accent? Dress? Religion? Apparently, these could be sole factors in forming a reasonable suspicion.
Regardless of how the courts will interpret these provisions in the future, what matters is how front-line police officers will have the freedom to
apply them. This article assumes you will be in the US lawfully, so if you are detained under this law, you will be eventually exonerated and
released. But an extremely upsetting and arbitrary detention is bad enough so you should know the risks.
After detaining you on a “reasonable suspicion” of illegal status, the officer will make a “reasonable attempt” to determine your status. That’s also
an interesting part. The bill lists IDs that will give you a presumption of lawful status on the spot. All of them (except maybe the “tribal” card)
are US federal or state issued. Most Canadians, of course, do not require any US-issued ID like visas to travel to the US. So most Canadians in
Arizona will have a Canadian passport or a Canadian province-issued enhanced driver’s license. That’s why most Canadians initially stopped under this
bill will not be presumed to have lawful status in the US.
This will trigger a verification with the US immigration authorities and a potential longer, miserable detention of a Canadian who is in the US on a
perfectly lawful basis. And all it takes is a “reasonable suspicion.”
Obviously, drafters of this proposed Arizona statute didn’t think about millions of Canadians who lawfully visit the US without any US-issued papers.
They probably didn’t even know. And that’s why laws should be passed by or at least coordinated with people with relevant jurisdiction and expertise.
Immigration should be the sole competence of the US Congress and the US federal executive. They would know about Canadians, but how long will random
Canadians have to spend in Arizona custody before state authorities get hold of the feds, if this bill is passed? Perhaps, Foreign Affairs Canada
should monitor this proposed legislation and issue an appropriate warning to Canadians if Arizona Senate Bill 1070 becomes law.
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Cypress
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7641
Registered: 3-12-2006
Location: on the bayou
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Mood: undecided
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Passport? Visa? Identification?
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capt. mike
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8085
Registered: 11-26-2002
Location: Bat Cave
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Mood: Sling time!
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78% of the legal residents of AZ support SB 1070 according to some recent polls.
cops have to have probable cause BEFORE any action - no diff.
all they are doing is asking if one is an American or a tourist....
since no one at the fed level will step in and enforce SIMILAR laws on the books our state decided to do it themselves. the killing of a rancher was
apparantly the last straw in the collective mind set of the state having to deal with the pressure of all these undocumented residents taxing our
social resources and sending $$ out of the country to Mexico and elsewhere.
recently a Ranch Markets outlet was found to have 40 illegals working - all were let go.
the next day 300 out of work AMERICANS showed up to apply for those jobs.
nuff said...
it is simple - RESPECT our laws. if you want to come here DO IT according to the established protocol.
Wash DC won't act. the fools in charge there have no cajones. This state has exercised its rights for sovereignty.
formerly Ordained in Rev. Ewing\'s Church by Mail - busted on tax fraud.......
Now joined L. Ron Hoover\'s church of Appliantology
\"Remember there is a big difference between kneeling down and bending over....\"
www.facebook.com/michael.l.goering |
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Donjulio
Nomad
Posts: 376
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Does anyone that wants to tout their high and mighty, better than, entitled attitude really know what a Mexican has to go through to legally get into
and work in the US? And...what their chances of being approved are?
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DENNIS
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 29510
Registered: 9-2-2006
Location: Punta Banda
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| Quote: | Originally posted by JESSE
In Arizona, you can get pulled over simply because you "look" Mexican, and nothing else.
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That's what the open border activists tell you, Jesse. It isn't true although they seem to have you convinced.
It's back to the same old crap....Who runs the US. The Muslims? The La Raza actvists? The illegals? Calderon?
This whole issue is fast taking away any understanding and tolerance I have toward the undocumented workers and their supporters in the States.
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dtutko1
Nomad
Posts: 341
Registered: 8-26-2009
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The number I saw was that 30% of the arizona residents are hispanic and there legally. They will be subject to "Your papers please" by any police
"w/good intentions or not. This law will never go into effect or pass any constitutional challange. On the other hand it may be the only way to keep
the democrats in power.
Dorado Don
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DENNIS
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 29510
Registered: 9-2-2006
Location: Punta Banda
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Donjulio
Does anyone that wants to tout their high and mighty, better than, entitled attitude really know what a Mexican has to go through to legally get into
and work in the US? And...what their chances of being approved are? |
It's a problem, for sure. Agriculture is a big user of migrant workers and stands to be affected by a shortage of help. That's too bad.
The farmers in America form a strong lobby and should take their clout to congress and fight for faster entry requirments. They should also start
paying a living wage to entice the unemployed to take jobs.
The employers who are getting away with paying chicken feed to their workers are directly responsible for ALL of this b.s.
Personally, I don't care if an apple costs twenty bucks. That market will work itself out.
[Edited on 4-29-2010 by BajaNomad]
[Edited on 5-6-2010 by DENNIS]
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rts551
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6699
Registered: 9-5-2003
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Ah.. all will be better my great governor, Jan Brewer, takes up the issue of "sparklers" today. Don't believe me. Check the Arizona newspapers.
Its caused quiet an emotional stir.
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capt. mike
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8085
Registered: 11-26-2002
Location: Bat Cave
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Mood: Sling time!
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The number I saw was that 30% of the arizona residents are hispanic and there legally
that is simply absurd.
formerly Ordained in Rev. Ewing\'s Church by Mail - busted on tax fraud.......
Now joined L. Ron Hoover\'s church of Appliantology
\"Remember there is a big difference between kneeling down and bending over....\"
www.facebook.com/michael.l.goering |
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monoloco
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6667
Registered: 7-13-2009
Location: Pescadero BCS
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Donjulio
Does anyone that wants to tout their high and mighty, better than, entitled attitude really know what a Mexican has to go through to legally get into
and work in the US? And...what their chances of being approved are? |
When immigration regulations are too
onerous to comply with then people will circumvent the law. I am convinced that the reason that we have so many illegals in the US is because we have
made it so difficult to get in legally or illegally that once in the states folks are reluctant to leave. I have even known Europeans who have stayed
in the states illegally because of the difficulties of obtaining a visa. The only way to address this problem is to have a coherent and streamlined
process for workers to enter the country, it is too much to expect a farm laborer, domestic, or restaurant dishwasher to wade through a bureaucratic
quagmire that can take 10 years or more. At best the Arizona law will just drive the illegals into other states and will do nothing to solve the
broader issues.
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