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toneart
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| Quote: | Originally posted by LancairDriver
| Quote: | Originally posted by DavidE
Predator aircraft have been entering Mexican airspace with permission since 2007. They are based at McDill AFB. Their mission is intelligence
gathering and mapping. A Big Bird is gathering and relaying telecommunications to Ft. Meade Md. for analysis.
Mexico would never allow armed drones to pass into Mexican airspace under any circumstances. MQ-1 Predator aircraft have enhanced time on target
capabilities, with endurance well over 36 hours. They are absolutely silent (less than -25db) at an altitude of 1,000 meters over target, and have
color spectrum analysis capabilities that can deliniate one square inch of marijuana at that altitude. Multitasking allows the aircraft to gather
cellular and satellite telephone transmissions and can triangulate and co-ordinate signal vectors to within one tenth of one meter.
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I wouldn't discount the possibility of armed Predator strikes in Mexico in the not to distant future given the level of the escalation of violence
recently. The fact is that our military is showing more interest and the success of the Predator program in Pakistan is an indicator of the most
successful terrorist eradication tool presently available. It is only a matter of time before the Narco's grease the wrong people (on either side of
the border) and the gloves will come off. The present strategy of raiding the Narco's randomly with a military force has produced too many friendly
casualties and with the corrupt Police tipping off the bad guys it results in no gain at all.
The psychological effect of being vaporized by something you can't see or hear in a hideout or driving in a car previously assumed safe has a very
sobering effect.
Also, who would they retaliate against? This kind of war can be fought with unseen warriors armed with a little intelligence on the ground.
The very existence of the Mexican government is now in jeopardy with the present situation, and you can bet this will not be allowed to happen.
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This is just my opinion. How would I know anything for sure?:
Mexico's government will take any form it wishes without U.S. intervention. It is a sovereign country. Political coersion by the U.S. will occur, but
it is basically toothless.
The cartels hold the power. The democratic government that exists now has lost the War on Drugs. Mexico will become a hybrid political entity; the
strongest cartel along with career politicians from powerful, wealthy families will emerge. The rival cartels will be quickly killed off or disappear
and then the violence will stop. It will be business as usual, like the old days under the PRI.
Regarding predator drones, as was said, they already exist as spy craft over Mexico but they are not armed. To use armed drones creates too much
collateral damage. As in Pakistan, they kill way too many innocent civilians. Being way over there, what we do there is basically invisible and all we
know is what is reported in our corporate owned media.
If we used drone strikes in Mexico, it is too close to home and the horror would come home to roost. Mexicans are people we know. It has also been
said here that the cartels are intermixed with civilians throughout the country. We just can't do that! It is logistically impossible and morally
wrong!!!
If we started remote predator drone bombings, we would also create the recruitment of Mexican terrorists in The U.S. with the same intentions as the
ones from The Middle East.
We humans are responsible for the atrocities we commit and WAR is as bad as anything we can conceive...no better than the horrible cartel violence.
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Stickers
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No drugs at all
I was traveling around Sapin in the early 1970's. This was the thick of the hippie years and drugs were everywhere worldwide but NOT in Spain.
Franco was still president and there was vey serious law enforcement and punishment in effect. Civil Guards were on every street corner (millions of
them) and they were quite serious.
I mention this because it looked like and felt like Mexico to me back then.
If you wanted to have a smoke you went to Morocco and did not bring any back!
There was no drug problem - many countries have negligible drug problems.
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BajaBruno
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Not to question the authenticity of what you posted, LancairDriver, but I can't find a transcript anywhere that matches any of what you printed. What
is the source of your original posting?
Christopher Bruno, Elk Grove, CA.
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DENNIS
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| Quote: | Originally posted by toneart
If we started remote predator drone bombings, we would also create the recruitment of Mexican terrorists in The U.S. with the same intentions as the
ones from The Middle East.
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Good point, Tony. "Mi Tierra" will be a strong call for many.
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LancairDriver
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| Quote: | Originally posted by BajaBruno
Not to question the authenticity of what you posted, LancairDriver, but I can't find a transcript anywhere that matches any of what you printed. What
is the source of your original posting? |
The daily e-report from the Air Force Assn. Posted the same day I received it.
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k-rico
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| Quote: | Originally posted by LancairDriver
Rumor has it in DEA circles that a Predator unmanned air program similar to the one being waged in Northern Pakistan is being discussed with the
Mexican Government. One minute the Narco's are gathered enjoying fish tacos and cervesa's and planning the next massacre, the next they are vaporized.
Probably won't happen for political reasons, but would be very effective if it did. |
Won't happen for political reasons???
How about it won't happen for moral, logical, and legal reasons.
If the American military starts killing Mexicans, even narcos, every American living in/visiting Mexico will become a target.
Please don't think Americans murdering Mexicans is a good idea!!
[Edited on 11-6-2010 by k-rico]
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ramuma53
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Toneart
Mexico's government will take any form it wishes without U.S. intervention. It is a sovereign country. Political coersion by the U.S. will occur, but
it is basically toothless.
That would be a little naïve, Mexico only take the form the US allow in a very diplomatic way, as an example, First the USA would become a leftist
than Mexico and it is the same history since the 1800, remember that the USA is the main source for funds for Mexico, be it oil, labor, marijuana,
drugs or merchandise, about 80% is American trade, believe me, Mexico consult with the USA every move and the US certainly has teeth with Mexico, it
is not always right like the war on drugs, but it has its tools.
The cartels hold the power. The democratic government that exists now has lost the War on Drugs. Mexico will become a hybrid political entity; the
strongest cartel along with career politicians from powerful, wealthy families will emerge. The rival cartels will be quickly killed off or disappear
and then the violence will stop. It will be business as usual, like the old days under the PRI.
Mexico government still hold the power and it will prevail, the US cannot allow or afford a 3000 mile border with a war zone, the war on drugs cannot
be lost, everything would have been lost and I mean the US and Mexico and most of the world, Mafias exist as long as they are tolerated and at this
time they are tolerated in the USA and Mexico, that has to change and will change because money has no meaning if you are afraid they will kill you
and that is what happening now with the Mexican politicians. When things have to change and both countries agree they cannot tolerate any more and a
strong hand will come and will placate all those small unruly drug lords and that time is coming, that has happened over and over in history and now
the time is arriving in Mexico and it will happen, even the strong hand is showing in the PRI party
Regarding predator drones, as was said, they already exist as spy craft over Mexico but they are not armed. To use armed drones creates too much
collateral damage. As in Pakistan, they kill way too many innocent civilians. Being way over there, what we do there is basically invisible and all we
know is what is reported in our corporate owned media.
My friends, armed interventions in Mexico have happened time and time again, the last time it happened was in 1986 when a armed column went from the
border all the way to Caborca in Sonora to try to capture one of Rafael Caro Quintero brothers, it was composed of tanks and helicopters, they raided
a ranch but were unable to capture their target, the Mexican military did not move a finger and were filmed in Mexico and at their base, so do not
worry about details, if it is needed, the American military will attack in Mexico or do you really believe that El Tigrillo from the Arellano Felix
Cartel was captured in international waters? Near Loreto there are no international waters.
Concerning invisibility, the same have happened in Mexico and will happen again as many times as needed, but they have to want to do it and Mexico
have to ask for it to cover the file and that time is approaching very soon or the strong hand will do it from Mexico´s government with USA help,
covered or not.
If we used drone strikes in Mexico, it is too close to home and the horror would come home to roost. Mexicans are people we know. It has also been
said here that the cartels are intermixed with civilians throughout the country. We just can't do that! It is logistically impossible and morally
wrong!!!
Of course if you say it was a drone, but they will say it was a gas tank exploding or an attack from other cartel, that easy, but believe me, Mexicans
are not naïve, they just are used to not say anything and more when the action is needed.
If we started remote predator drone bombings, we would also create the recruitment of Mexican terrorists in The U.S. with the same intentions as the
ones from The Middle East.
No my friend, you will be thanked, not by everybody, and not publicly but by 99% of the population, the cartels are a problem for Mexicans mostly.
We humans are responsible for the atrocities we commit and WAR is as bad as anything we can conceive...no better than the horrible cartel violence.
No my friend the cartels are worst, they bring war to your family and business, Mexico now is like Chicago in the 20s, while wars are fought with
soldiers far from home, At this time, Mexicans are being kidnapped in their homes, they have to pay protection, they are afraid to go to a disco,
afraid to transit a highway, they kill their sons in the streets, their sons are becoming drug addicts, this is a war we need.
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sanquintinsince73
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Mexico's economy depends far too much on drug money. The reason Calderon initiated a "war" on drugs is because the cartel violence had escalated to a
point where tourism dropped and the citizenry demanded action due to the violence. Every President from Jose Lopez Portillo to Vicente Fox allowed the
cartels to work quietly for the most part. Everyone new that they were there and many in politics benefited. When cartels starting fighting over
territory and murdering innocent civilians, that is when Calderon had to act.
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sanquintinsince73
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Predator's dropping hellfire missiles is wishful thinking. Can anyone say collateral damage? Like someone posted, every American, not to mention
Nomads, will have a target on their backs if we start killing Mexicans. I think the best thing to do is to pressure Calderon to allow us to destroy
the amapola and pot fields and then do the same in Colombia with American pilots.
[Edited on 11-6-2010 by sanquintinsince73]
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k-rico
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| Quote: | Originally posted by sanquintinsince73
Predator's dropping hellfire missiles is wishful thinking. |
Wishful thinking???
Murdering people using remote control airplanes is wishful thinking?
Strange thoughts.
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DENNIS
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This whole scenario is senseless. Just wait till they cross the border with drugs...then
do 'em.
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Russ
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Well they've been "doing them" just fine on the Mexican side.
5 November 2010 Last updated at 21:42 ET
Mexico Gulf drug cartel leader Ezequiel Card##as killed
Ezequiel Card##as Guillen in US DEA photo Card##as died after a shoot-out lasting several hours.
A leader of Mexico's powerful Gulf drug cartel has been shot dead by security forces in a town near the US border, the Mexican military says.
Ezequiel Card##as Guillen, known as "Tony Tormenta", was killed in the city of Matamoros, across the border from Brownsville in Texas.
He is the brother of former Gulf cartel leader Osiel Card##as, who was extradited to the US in 2007.
Residents in Matamoros spoke of a shoot-out lasting for several hours.
Three suspected gunmen and two marines were also killed in the gun battle, according to federal security spokesman Alejandro Poire.
Card##as, 48, had been indicted in the US on drugs charges, and the US Drug Enforcement Administration was offering a reward of up to $5m for his
arrest.
He was accused of smuggling tonnes of drugs across the US/Mexico border in the course of the past decade.
Friday's operation involved several hundred Mexican soldiers and marines, and local residents were trapped in shops and schools for extended periods.
Bridges across the international border into Texas were closed briefly, as the military used firearms and grenades to tackle suspected cartel members.
Bahia Concepcion where life starts...given a chance!
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sanquintinsince73
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| Quote: | Originally posted by k-rico
| Quote: | Originally posted by sanquintinsince73
Predator's dropping hellfire missiles is wishful thinking. |
Wishful thinking???
Murdering people using remote control airplanes is wishful thinking?
Strange thoughts. |
Here we go again. I should have been more specific in my wishful thinking spiel. I am in favor, with Mexico's permission, of dropping even bags of
rubber dog sh*t onto cartel leader's hideouts. With that comes collateral damage and as I stated, let's ruin the crops instead. Comprende K-rico??
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Bajatripper
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Appreciate your insight on this, ramuma, and glad to be proven wrong on my earlier comment on a different thread that you are a one-issue Nomad.
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toneart
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajatripper
Appreciate your insight on this, ramuma, and glad to be proven wrong on my earlier comment on a different thread that you are a one-issue Nomad.
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I too appreciate your insight, Ramuma, even though I don't see it the way you do. As I said before, what do I know? Your knowledge of the Mexican
people, as to what they will and won't do, is something I can not adamantly refute. I do think you are mistaken though, about that and about Mexico
winning the War on Drugs. Oh, sure, they will kill off one drug lord or another. It is a war. Time will tell what the outcome will be.
You are right in that The U.S. has been very influential in Mexican politcal direction, and also a major benefactor of Mexico. But I think that the
U.S. has too many problems of its own now to continue to make economic policy with Mexico a priority.
About the suggestion of drones remotely bombing cartels, you are the one who said the cartels are mixed in with ordinary people in every city, town
and neighborhood. So how can you say that the Mexican people would thank us for bombing them? That is absurd.
A mentality that is myopic with prejudice does not allow for any flexibility. It renders one irrational.
On the turtle thread you confirmed my question that you believe every Nomad who disagrees with you is just mad because you are instrumental in
eliminating their drug dealers. That too is absurd!
I have been following your obsessive campaign for some time and the discrepancies are many. I know Olivia and Mark but I don't know the side of them
that you are alleging. I assure you that I am not a drug customer of theirs and I don't know anybody who is.
While I disagree with DavidK about most of his political attitudes, I think it is absurd of you to accuse him of being a drug customer. By reading his
many posts through the years, even though we disagree, I feel he is an honorable, upstanding citizen. I do not get that feeling about you.
I do respect that what you believe is YOUR truth. I will continue to read your opinions with interest and would never try to discourage you to express
your opinions. At the same time, I doubt seriously that we could ever see eye to eye.
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Cypress
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| Quote: | Originally posted by sanquintinsince73
Predator's dropping hellfire missiles is wishful thinking. Can anyone say collateral damage? Like someone posted, every American, not to mention
Nomads, will have a target on their backs if we start killing Mexicans.
[Edited on 11-6-2010 by sanquintinsince73] |
The Mexicans are doing a perfectly good job of killing themselves. Seem to be getting better at it.
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MrBillM
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Killing The Bad Guys by Remote-Control
Is COOL.
The Predators give new meaning to the old Sniper motto of "Reach out and Touch Someone".
It's just too bad that they don't have a few seconds of abject terror before their butts are blown to pieces.
Now, THAT would be cool.
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ramuma53
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Toneart
I did not mean that every Nomad who disagrees with me, is a drug addict, only that some of them are and it is difficult to say who, but I know some by
sight and photos, but this is another thread, let us not go back.
Sometimes, illogical things come from desperate situations and terrorist are also among normal people, the fact, is that you have to act or suffer the
consequences latter.
Mexico is that way and if you think that American military is new to acting in Mexico you are wrong, they have been doing it for decades and with the
help of some Mexicans, policeman or not.
Calderon certainly is losing the war, but not with the cartels, but with political opposition; once PRI takes over, they will make a show on how it is
done, to bring Mexico back to normal and that is to non violent drug trafficking, because drug trafficking can only be corrected in America, not in
Mexico.
I am not part of PRI, I only recognize that it is inevitable now, that they take over in 2 years and yes, they have been putting gas on the fire for
Calederon.
About bombing, it is only a way of talking; we are referring about all kinds surgical commando strikes; In Mexico there has been always Mexicans who
recognize the problem and help the people fighting this war, being it Mexicans or even Americans and I know even English actions.
About being honorable I am certain you are honorable and decent people, but I know just too many, who are not and yes sometimes I make mistakes, I
accept it.
Mexico is now paying its debt about not correcting the problem sooner, they were thinking that Mexico may just benefit from drug trafficking without
becoming a user and they were wrong, it is clear now.
American get the nice end of the problem, they just get the drugs, handled by American cartels but in Mexico, the cartels have became part of every
crime, kidnapping, robbery, extortion, killings for money, even highway armed robbery; they are no longer only drug traffickers bringing dollars to
Mexico, they have become full time criminals, who take benefit of every kind of crime and that is hitting the politicians on the face, they no longer
obey the government.
Just ask yourself, how is it possible that a war is going on in Mexico over drugs that go to the United States, where there is no war on drugs; where
are the killed drug lords in America? or the big ones caught?, or the big drug catches like the 150 ton in Tijuana?
Calderon initiated an armed war on Mexican drug lords, because they no longer obey the government and Fox lost every kind of control, he did it with
the hope of correcting the problem initiated by his political party excesive cooperation with the drug traffic industry, but the problem just exploded
on him with the help of his political adversaries.
Mexican used to admire drug lords because they provided work and money while sending drugs only t America, now they hate them because they no longer
provide money but dead and crime against Mexican, instead of spending the money they now lend it as loansharks; old drug lords were not that way but
now they are and need control.
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toneart
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Rumama,
Thank you for clarifying some of your previous statements. They allow me to understand your viewpoints, somewhat.
In your last post, are you saying that the cartels operating in Mexico are American? Well, Mexico is part of America, but do you mean to say they are
cartels from the United States? Please clarify. That cannot be. 
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ramuma53
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Toneart
You are right; they are not the same, because you are still under the same mafia families than 60 years ago, the Gallo Family still control
California, but they are both links on the same supply chain for the same product going to the USA.
Mexico used to change their drug lords every 5 to 7 years and only the best and most disciplined were able to survive 2 or 3 cycles, but that ended
with the specific crime concession system.
Since Pan took over Baja California with Governor Ruffo, he was owned by only one cartel, the drug wars started and it went National; when the Pan
party took over the presidency; President Fox just lost control and very small figures escalated on the drugs cartels and to do that, out of the
traditional system sanctioned by the government, now out of the controls, they had to resort to extreme violence against each other; under Pan, lots
and lots of hungry politicians started to accept drug money, thinking that PRI used to do it that way and they were all wrong, they did not take it
that way or under those conditions, they took it as presents to the master, not as payment to the help.
PRI always maintained a controlled system, where drug lords were always and without exception under the government spell and at the minimal
disciplinary problem, they just changed them putting them in jail or in the cementery; it was a master slave relationship, never a partnership; that
was the Mexican way of maintaining order; nobody fought nobody, because they had a master controlling the situation and if a big catch happened, they
knew they would be compensated some other way, no object in killing anybody; violence was reserved only to smaller drug operators who violated any
crime law but never between drug lords, they were all compadres and made big parties together. Now, in Tijuana the Army captured 150 tons of marijuana
and next they on the police frequency, all the police and city officials were sentenced to death and they executed 17 guys to start.
Then, If the Mexico´s government was pressed by the USA government, they just talked to the right guy, who suspended operations or slowed down without
a question, no matter how much he lost, if he was disciplined, he will just make a lot more and survived or may even go to jail for a while with all
luxuries included; also they were very concurrent with the government needs; when the peso was devaluated, big amount of dollars were deposited in
Mexican bank accounts changing them to devaluated pesos, to help the peso, it was a symbiotic Master slave relationship, recognizing the fact that it
was the second export business, under oil but over tourism.
All that relationship went away with PAN, who just accepted money and took them in, not as master to slaves or even as partners, they became their
tools, 180 degree turn, and now, they do not want to go back to being slaves, now one of them, has been cited as one of the 10 most influential people
in the world, Chapo Guzman, just beside the Pope and Carlos Slim; now they control part of Europe and Africa, they went transnational, they feel
bigger than the president himself; do you think they would want to go back in the bottle? Even if PRI takes over, but, PRI know how and have a lot of
relationships on that world, old people who know that being in the spot is not the way of doing business.
Now, this will not be, just a Mexican problem, if the world let them, they will certainly control the world, or at least that is what they think, what
you see now in Mexico is one cartel trying to control the whole Mexico, after controling Sout America, it is like as if one of the American families
tried to take over the whole USA and Mexico, a war will erupt all over America and believe me, if they do not stop those guys, they will control first
the rest of East Europe, then Europe and Asia and then America; remember Hitler when he started, he was not very important and had a lot less money
that those guys right now while on violence, he was a wimp if you compare him to Chapo Guzman.
While the money to finance all that, comes from the richest nation in the world, up to now, the USA, whose people are just enjoying their product and
not jet the consequences.
It sounds like a James Bond movie? If you knew what really happen in the world every day, that won´t sound that far away and the dangers are real,
like Hitler was real and went unnoticed until it was too late, they are just too money related to the guys who control the economical world and they
do not care about you or me.
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