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Woooosh
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| Quote: | Originally posted by JoeJustJoe
| Quote: | Originally posted by Woooosh
Good points Blanca. We shouldn't victimize these two ladies for believing what the media is telling them though- that TJ is safe for tourism. They
were walking the main pedestrian route for tourists going from the border to the Ave Revolution nightlife. If the TJ police can't manage to post at
least one unit there to protect that route it's pretty much game over for tourism. Well, not really- this story broke on election day results and
never got much attention. Another win for the media censors, but not a win for tourist safety. |
Blanca made a great post from a females perspective, however Whoosh's posts leaves a lot to be desired.
That pedestrian bridge is usually quite busy and pretty safe during the day, but at night it's very dangerous and just about all local Mexicans and
even visiting gringos know it's not a good idea to cross at night especially for women walking alone.
The river bed has a good size homeless population just like I remember many riverbeds in the States that had a sizable homeless population living
under the bridges and the riverbeds. (when I was a kid I use to play under my local riverbed, and I use to run into bums under there, but I think back
them they were referred to as hobos.
Today most American women working nights won't even walk to their cars alone out of fear they will be raped or mugged in large companies that have
large parking lots, and most large companies have security guards that upon request will walk American women workers to their car, or they walk with
other work members.
The question remains what were those two American women thinking when they decided to walk the bridge alone at night when just about nobody else is
crossing at that time of night?
There are a lot of places on that bridge where you could get mugged, and the TJ police can't be everywhere nor would I expect the police force to
provide a lot of security at that time of night because most sane people would not be crossing at that hour at night.
What these two American women did was equivalent to Woooosh walking alone at night in some of the worst areas of Compton California and then get
mugged, and shot because he didn't give the muggers his wallet, but afterward wonders what happened because he heard Compton/LA was safe.
The fact is Tijuana is very safe, and the Tijuana police force is all over the city making it as safe as other large cities, but all bets are off if
in engage in illegal actives or do stupid these like these two American women did. But who knows maybe they ran out of money, or there boyfriends
dumped them in TJ without money, and they had no other choice but walking home.
I talked to a Arturo Martinez, Deputy Director of the State Secretary of Tourism board on another matter by email, and Arturo told me there are
definitely a few areas of Tijuana that a tourist should avoid, and I bet he would agree with me that the pedestrian bridge in Tijuana late at night is
an area one should avoid in order to be safe?
[Edited on 11-5-2010 by JoeJustJoe] |
"a lot to be desired". Desired by whom? Mocking the victims isn't anything new on this board. I haven't seen much PR for late night tourism in
Compton (and I don't even know where that is exactly) unlike TJ where bar owners are still fighting for later operating hours and running nightly
specials geared towards the college kids who are encouraged to park on the US side and walk across. If it's not safe let them know. If these ladies
were out an about town- why didn't a club doorman give them a heads-up or a waiter hail them a safe cab? I do agree they should not have been walking
in a group of only two people and stated that in my first post.
Tourist info: "Getting Back to San Diego from Tijuana. To get back to the border from Avenida Revolucion on foot, just look for the big arch. Walk to
it, turn right, go over the bridge and through the small shopping plaza."
http://www.tijuanagringo.org/turinfo/tuwabo1.htm
\"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing\"
1961- JFK to Canadian parliament (Edmund Burke)
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flyfishinPam
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I am glad someone else brought this up.
I hate this attitude like these victims deserved it. When IS a good time to cross that bridge, or be stuck in traffic waiting to cross? if 1am is
too late how about midnight or is that too late too? what about 9pm? we just read an article of eating in TJ do they mention these restrictions?
and what the h- is wrong with waiting for a friend to buy bread? maybe his friend was buying those little pig cookies. we are being programmed to
behave in a certain way because of fear! this sucks my days of crossing that late are behind me but it sure was fun! too bad the younger ones
won't be able to enjoy it relatively safely like many of us could.
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JoeJustJoe
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"a lot to be desired". Desired by whom? Mocking the victims isn't anything new on this board. I haven't seen much PR for late night tourism in Compton
(and I don't even know where that is exactly) unlike TJ where bar owners are still fighting for later operating hours and running nightly specials
geared towards the college kids who are encouraged to park on the US side and walk across. If it's not safe let them know. If these ladies were out an
about town- why didn't a club doorman give them a heads-up or a waiter hail them a safe cab? I do agree they should not have been walking in a group
of only two people and stated that in my first post.
Tourist info: "Getting Back to San Diego from Tijuana. To get back to the border from Avenida Revolucion on foot, just look for the big arch. Walk to
it, turn right, go over the bridge and through the small shopping plaza."
http://www.tijuanagringo.org/turinfo/tuwabo1.htm
-------------------------------------
The problem I have with Wooosh's post is that he seems to be siding with the "alarmist" type blogger and haters in places like "SignsOnSanDiego"
comment section that use incidents like this to scare the living daylights out of anybody considering traveling to Tijuana or even to Mexican resorts
like Acapulco that are still extremely safe for American tourists despite the big kidnapping incident and a few cartel related killings.
Wooosh when did the media tell these two Americans girls that Tijuana is so safe that they should walk the pedestrian bridge alone at night pass
midnight where the homeless, and ratero population rests at night? ( you don't see these bums and criminals during the day)
I have a teenage/young adult Daughter that is of the partying age, and I have no problem if she wanted to visit Baja California with her friends, and
she use to sometimes go with her brother( my son) whose friends parents owned property in Baja and they stayed over night and went bar hoping in
Rosarito Beach often as my son went to college in the San Diego area.
But do you think I'm going to tell my daughter to walk a dark deserted bridge with her friends late at night? I'm sure most teens or young adults
especially girls know you don't put yourself in that position ever! ( that Tijuana blog directions were a joke, and it confused me although I made
that walk many times. I doubt people even read blogs like that?)
This incident was an aberration. No normal girl(s) would make the same mistakes these two American did. I would think most normal girls of that age
would be afraid of being raped in any place like that bridge or dark parking lots in the states.( I bet those two girls were in an altered state of
conscious, because what they did was crazy)
Who knows maybe the San Diego papers will cover this incident, but they are under no obligation to cover every incident of this type. Just like the US
media doesn't over every story where a Mexican was killed even when it involved hate crimes. ( the Tribune is a conservative paper. They love bashing
Mexico. So I don't know about this news blackout conspiracy I often hear about)
Maybe I misinterpreted your thoughts Wooosh? But I would really like your opinion. Do you believe that Tijuana and the Baja is relative safe enough
for American tourist? Or should they follow the advice of the "alarmists" and just stay home and hang out at the local "El Torito" an upscale
Southland Mexican bar/restaurant and club after hours in order to get that Mexican feel?
If you ask me the Media has already done a great job scaring the US natives on the dangers of Mexico, and any more stories are just over kill.
My message to the alarmists is you can cower under the blankets and fear Mexico all you want, but that's not going to keep me from visiting, and from
the tourist numbers showing tourism increasing from the US to Mexico. I doubt too many people are listening to the alarmists either)
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wessongroup
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Reporting news is not alarmist ..... if one choose to perceive it that way... so be it..
Find is strange when anyone brings up and event which may give a negative coloring to Baja, it seems to be either rejected out of hand.. told that it
happens everywhere, ratings of another City with higher rates of homicide of what ever.. or one is classified as an alarmist ....
I appreciate all news, which is fact based and will make my own mind up on where and when I go ...
The rest is speculation .....
[Edited on 11-5-2010 by wessongroup]
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DENNIS
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| Quote: | Originally posted by wessongroup
Reporting news is not alarmist ..... if one choose to perceive it that way... so be it..
Find is strange when anyone bring up and event which may give a negative coloring to Baja, it seems to be either rejected out of hand.. told that it
happens everywhere, ratings of another City with higher rates of homicide of what ever.. or one is classified as an alarmist ....
I appreciate all news, which is fact based and will make my own mind up on where and when I go ...
The rest is speculation ..... |
Muy well stated, Wiley. Screw people who can't handle the proven truth.
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tripledigitken
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Walking home
Joejustjoe,
Point of reference for you. I travel to Baja numerous times each year. Now that I have retired it will surely increase. Just want to establish that
fact.
You and others say it's just crazy to walk over that bridge from downtown late at night, right?
Didn't use to be. As a teenager friday nights were special when I reached eighteen, that meant we could go to TJ. We would park on the US side and
walk across, have a fun night, then walk back across. I don't recall any victims of crime or warnings not to cross. This was before the safe zone,
by the way. Many didn't think a thing about driving the toll road at night, yet many won't do it anymore.
The fact is that things have changed for the worse and are continuing to degrade. You can choose to ignore that and try to explain it away, blame the
victims. By the way, many here have blamed the victims recently.
Baja has felt little of the crime so far. Read any news, not just the US version. The atrocities throughout Mexico are growing and will no doubt
spill over to Baja. I don't think that is being an alarmist, or "drama queening" as some have said.
Ken
[Edited on 11-5-2010 by tripledigitken]
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JoeJustJoe
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Wessongroup wrote: Reporting news is not alarmist ..... if one choose to perceive it that way... so be it..
---------------------
I agree with that reporting the news isn't "alarmist" but if that's all you do is report negative news, and not only that but if you're a regional
newspaper or blog and that's all you do is report cartels killings and other violence from every place in Mexico to make it seems like a certain area
is a war zone.
Then I'm going to wonder what's your real agenda? Is your life goal really to warn Americans of the danger of Mexico because the US media is engaged
in a news conspiracy cover-up. I'm going to wonder if perhaps you had a bad business deal in Mexico or a Mexican girl or guy rejected you and you are
going to take it out on Mexico.
Imagine if I started a news blog on San Diego, but that I not only cover the crime in San Diego but I also covered and included violent crime in the
rest of America and places like Brooklyn and Detroit. What if I put all those news reports together. Couldn't I made San Diego look like a war zone?
It's no wonder the Mayor of Tijuana and others are upset over the bias coverage of Baja California making it seem like a war zone, and taking stories
like this one with the American girl getting shot in the back, and making it like Whooosh does that she was a casual American tourist unaware of the
dangers of Tijuana because of a news blackout from the San Diego news outlets.
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tripledigitken: Didn't use to be. As a teenager friday nights were special when I reached eighteen, that meant we could go to TJ. We would park on the
US side and walk across, have a fun night, then walk back across. I don't recall any victims of crime or warnings not to cross. This was before the
safe zone, by the way. Many didn't think a thing about driving the toll road at night, yet many won't do it anymore.
------------------
Tripledigitken Which decade and century are we talking about when you were a teen walking over the the clubs on Tijuana, and then walked back home
safely. ( did you know any single young girls that did that even years ago?)
The fact is living in the US and Mexico have become more dangerous than ever and there are few places in the US even Mayberry, NC where I doubt even
Aunt Bee would leave her doors unlocked at night.
I would like to hear from other women on this forum to come to this thread and tell me what these two American women did was normal behavior to walk a
dark isolated bridge late at night, and I'm not just talking Tijuana, but I'm talking any urban city in the USA too.
Like it or not these two American women contributed to their own demise and they should have been a little smarter, although there is no excuse that
one of them got shot in the back by Mexican thugs.
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Woooosh
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Hey Joe. Short answer to your question is- imho the security situation for Baja Norte is unpredictable at best and no former rules or expectations
should apply. It's almost a wild west or Mafia type atmosphere here between the rival cartels. All levels of authority are complicit in some way to
some one or group- because it pays very well and is the only way most of these civil servants would ever see great personal wealth. Their war is
their war protecting their drugs and money, but that while that war goes on the tourist based economy and the society both suffer. It's only less
safe for tourists if they become a targeted group- and I don't think that's the case. That doesn't mean it should go unreported though.
\"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing\"
1961- JFK to Canadian parliament (Edmund Burke)
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wessongroup
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Joe, the operative word in your report... "if" ...... my statement is not conditioned on a preposition .. It is not hypothetical as is your
argument(s) and/or example(s) and/or open ended question(s)
Walter Conkite reported news.. as have others.. that some are not able to discern between fact and fiction is not the point being made... rather, that
some choose to respond to a specific type of news in a certain fashion ... and my post dealt with what a specific single individual posted on "a
single news report"
Stay on point.. think the post was about a reported criminal activity in the State of Baja in the City of Tijuana.. at a specific location, with a
specific time, and date ..... would guess there is a police report filed also.
The rest is generalized speculation and interpretation on your part...
There is an old one "if your aunt had balls, she would be your uncle" Joe/Josephine
[Edited on 11-6-2010 by wessongroup]
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JoeJustJoe
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Wessongroup wrote: I appreciate all news, which is fact based and will make my own mind up on where and when I go ...
The rest is speculation .....
Walter Conkite reported news.. as have others.. that some are not able to discern between fact and fiction is not the point being made... rather, that
some choose to respond to a specific type of news in a certain fashion ... and my post dealt with what a specific single individual posted on "a
single news report"
_____________________________
What are you smoking Wessongroup? Saying you want to hear the facts, and acting like Walter Conkite just reported the news.
If Walter Conkite was still alive and on CBS he would be considered a leftist propagandist by the right. Wessongroup do you even consider "Fox News"
a real news outlet, and do you think they just report the news? Fox news is a total joke and I doubt I believe one story out of 10 despite the fact
there are supposedly reporting the facts.
The news is manipulated all the time, and news is bias as all hell. If the SDUT ran scary stories about cartel violence in TJ every day they could
probably make most of their readers believe there is a real war going on in the streets of TJ and they better not go there unless they have a tank.
The corporate media news makes it seem like Hugo Chavez is the worst villain in the world, but I often ask myself why is that all the bad guys seem
to only come from oil rich nations. You think maybe we are being manipulated at least a little about Hugo Chavez and other bad guys? How are we going
to really know if the corporate media all seem to be on the same page?
I really don't know where you are going with your post Wessongroup? And the 'Nomad" humor put-downs I'm still trying to understand. They seem a little
silly and juvenile to me.
[Edited on 11-6-2010 by JoeJustJoe]
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wessongroup
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Joe, inability to stay on point makes for good rambling ... but that is about it...
That you don't understand a simple factual statement, is not surprising to me.. and the linkage to my first post with my second is not valid, as my
second post focused on a totally different point than the first...
My first post stands on its own...
"Reporting news is not alarmist ..... if one choose to perceive it that way... so be it..
Find is strange when anyone brings up and event which may give a negative coloring to Baja, it seems to be either rejected out of hand.. told that it
happens everywhere, ratings of another City with higher rates of homicide of what ever.. or one is classified as an alarmist ....
I appreciate all news, which is fact based and will make my own mind up on where and when I go ...
The rest is speculation ....."
My second post focused on your response to my first post and that it (your post) was conditioned with the magical word "if"...
"Joe, the operative word in your report... "if" ...... my statement is not conditioned on a preposition .. It is not hypothetical as is your
argument(s) and/or example(s) and/or open ended question(s)"
Lets see... will give you an example of how your "if" will work...... "If I were superman", I will remove all damns so we have fresh run salmon again,
I will install solar.. on the roofs of all homes.. and will develop and new fuel for the world... plus we will no longer have hunger in the world...
As for what I'm smoking.. Cohiba Churchill's .... great with my coffee in the morning.. or in the evening ... just by themselves....
[Edited on 11-6-2010 by wessongroup]
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JoeJustJoe
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Woooosh
Hey Joe. Short answer to your question is- imho the security situation for Baja Norte is unpredictable at best and no former rules or expectations
should apply. It's almost a wild west or Mafia type atmosphere here between the rival cartels. All levels of authority are complicit in some way to
some one or group- because it pays very well and is the only way most of these civil servants would ever see great personal wealth. Their war is
their war protecting their drugs and money, but that while that war goes on the tourist based economy and the society both suffer. It's only less
safe for tourists if they become a targeted group- and I don't think that's the case. That doesn't mean it should go unreported though.
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I guess I could accept your short answer Whooosh. At least I can understand it and it wasn't a weird answer like I sometimes read around here.
I could also go along with your statement that Tijuana" It's only less safe for tourists if they become a targeted group- and I don't think that's
the case." I agree I don't think the tourist or even the local population is targeted yet.
However, I believe your "alarmist" friends will be disappointed with your answer Woooosh. Remember the "Alarmists" goals are to keep all Americans
from traveling to anywhere in Mexico, and they get very furious if anybody disagrees with them.
I do disagree with a few of points. I wouldn't exactly call Tijuana a tourist based economy. Although tourism is important to most cities. I think
Tijuana is more of a business based economy and they want to attract more business to the area and have a growing maquiladora industry.
You call it "their" war. Well it's the USA's war as well. You also hear about the US"war on drugs" and how Mexico isn't doing enough. Yet Americans
rarely except for Hillary Clinton who finally acknowledged the Americans citizens insatiable appetite for drugs. Yes many Americans need to dull
their senses in order to make it through a day at work and home. The rat race here at home can be tough on some Americans. You rarely here about the
lax gun laws in America and how the US arms the Mexican drug cartels assault weapons and arms them indirectly with war type devices like grenades that
were left over from the cold war when the US armed a few Central American countries back in the 80's. You can now buy grenades on the black market for
a few hundred pesos.
Woooosh accept some of the blame of this "war on drugs" for the USA as there is plenty of blame to go around.
News cover up? Doubtful, this incident alone was only covered by the "AFN" as other news outlets in Mexico didn't consider it news worthy. I doubt the
San Diego tribune found it news worthy either, because there wasn't enough information in the story, and they just decided to cover something else.( I
did see some stories that I thought the San Diego paper should cover, but I'm not the editor.)
[Edited on 11-6-2010 by JoeJustJoe]
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Woooosh
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Hmmm. I wouldn't live here if I wasn't safe. My definition and comfort level for safety is only mine though- everyone has their own. Safety comes
and goes in waves around here. "Safe" and bustling six years ago, scary the three really bad years after that, and then relatively calm again for the
past two years. Now a new wave of bad is coming ashore and signs point to things getting worse for everyone again. It's all about the money. Drugs
is just the tool they are using to get it. Seventy years ago the tool of choice was alcohol and it made the Kennedy's rich. If the drug tool goes
away their new tool will be mass extortions and kidnappings. You can blame the US for the drugs and the US has already taken responsibility for being
the enablers to the problem. But that doesn't solve the problem. No one want to fix this problem because then they won't get paid any more. Everyone
is in way too deep. A truce will be made to stop the violence and everyone will be happy to get back to the old corrupt system that wasn't good, but
wasn't fatal either.
\"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing\"
1961- JFK to Canadian parliament (Edmund Burke)
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BajaRat
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Desperate times call for desperate measures. Tijuana has allways been a tough frontier town. I'm sad for the victims and the good folks of Tijuana
that have to endure this. Unfortunatly I believe these crimes will become more and more common place.
Lionel
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BajaRat
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Well said Woooosh.
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toneart
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Woooosh
Hmmm. I wouldn't live here if I wasn't safe. My definition and comfort level for safety is only mine though- everyone has their own. Safety comes
and goes in waves around here. "Safe" and bustling six years ago, scary the three really bad years after that, and then relatively calm again for the
past two years. Now a new wave of bad is coming ashore and signs point to things getting worse for everyone again. It's all about the money. Drugs
is just the tool they are using to get it. Seventy years ago the tool of choice was alcohol and it made the Kennedy's rich. If the drug tool goes
away their new tool will be mass extortions and kidnappings. You can blame the US for the drugs and the US has already taken responsibility for being
the enablers to the problem. But that doesn't solve the problem. No one want to fix this problem because then they won't get paid any more. Everyone
is in way too deep. A truce will be made to stop the violence and everyone will be happy to get back to the old corrupt system that wasn't good, but
wasn't fatal either. |
I agree, totally!
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Mexicorn
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Confirmed it yesterday Whoosh. American was shot by a panaderia. North Rosarito on the free road to TJ.
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jeans
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Dave
| Quote: | Originally posted by Mexicorn
Who in their right mind would be crossing that pedestrian bridge at 1 AM?
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I wouldn't walk across that bridge alone at 1PM. 
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Well, I walked across..alone..about 5:30pm in the winter, which meant it was dark. There were no lights then (about 15 years ago). There was A LOT of
traffic..a sea of people all moving in the dark. It was terrifying.
Never again
Mom always told me to be different - Now she says...Not THAT different
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DENNIS
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| Quote: | Originally posted by jeans
Well, I walked across..alone..about 5:30pm in the winter, which meant it was dark. There were no lights then (about 15 years ago). There was A LOT of
traffic..a sea of people all moving in the dark. It was terrifying.
Never again |
And to think, that part of the world was tame 15 years back relative to today.
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Woooosh
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Mexicorn
Confirmed it yesterday Whoosh. American was shot by a panaderia. North Rosarito on the free road to TJ. |
It is nearly impossible to find out what is happening around here. The Rosarito police stopped putting the daily crime logs on line a few months ago.
The police Captain was suspended for a week and almost no one knew about it. No news is just no news though- no one thinks there isn't any crime. We
did get the 400-500 expected Trick or Treaters at our door this year, so the kids and families are still trying to act normal when they can.
Anyone else notice the new billboards going up around Rosarito and on the toll road for the incoming government? The guy even put his face on the
billboard with a promise of better security and economic prosperity? They look like election ads someone forgot to tear down. I think the narcos will
see them as a challenge. I was thinking the gov't transition would be quieter for some reason.
\"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing\"
1961- JFK to Canadian parliament (Edmund Burke)
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