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David K
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Thank you!
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durrelllrobert
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DavidE
It too comes from the Deer Park refinery, and is available only in Baja north and along a varying width strip along the USA border. It's only in
Mexico because US authorities insist that Mexican trucks that cross the border meet US emission standards meaning they burn pure UBA fuel. Fuel
supplies Hope this helps. |
As of today the lowest diesel prices in Houston (nearest big city to Deer Park) is between $2.94 and $3.09 and after trucking all the way to Baja
Norte we buy it for $ 2.63 dollars per gallon thanks to MX gov subsidies
Bob Durrell
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mtgoat666
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| Quote: | Originally posted by BajaNomad
Another observation on this trip.... the gasoline I've been purchasing... has been smelling heavily of MTBE.
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did not know that people can use odor differences to discern the type and quantity of fuel oxygenate used in gasoline.
you must have a very peculiar nose! i can't tell difference by smell test
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BajaNomad
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| Quote: | Originally posted by mtgoat666
did not know that people can use odor differences to discern the type and quantity of fuel oxygenate used in gasoline.
you must have a very peculiar nose! i can't tell difference by smell test |
I know this is in your area of expertise.
And while I don't know if I can tell if Methanol or Ethanol is being used (and don't care to try) - the smell of MTBE in automotive motor fuel being
dispensed out of a pump is discernible to me.
I was in the fuel-handling business over a span of 27 years, including 19 where the focus was on specialty fuels for motorsports. We sold Methanol
and MTBE in small quantities by the gallon, and were one of the more prominent suppliers/brands on the west coast of street-legal 101 R+M/2 octane
unleaded performance gasoline (containing MTBE) at the time.
[Edited on 1-4-2011 by BajaNomad]
When I was young, I admired clever people. Now that I am old, I admire kind people.
– Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heschel
We know we must go back if we live, and we don`t know why.
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bajatravelergeorge
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DavidE
It too comes from the Deer Park refinery, and is available only in Baja north and along a varying width strip along the USA border. It's only in
Mexico because US authorities insist that Mexican trucks that cross the border meet US emission standards meaning they burn pure UBA fuel. Fuel
supplies down Baja north all come from the north. It is unlikely that any fuel, Magna, included is made in Mexico for sale in Baja north.
There isn't enough UBA diesel to supply both the USA and Mexico. Secondly, logistical problems (Mexico is a big country) prohibit the cruelly
expensive overland trucking of USA diesel to central and southern Mexico. An 18-wheel tanker truck would have to pay in excess of seven hundred
dollars in toll highway costs to go from Texas to Merida Yucatan.
Fluor Corporation, the mega engineering a refinery outfitting corporation is presently at work building three new refineries in Mexico. Pemex is
hedging information but has stated that the new refinery in Salina Cruz, Oaxaca is to furnish UBA fuels (gasolines),
Hope this helps. |
Try not to use regular, or low sulfer diesel if your vehicle is designed to run on ultra low sulfer diesel.
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BajaNomad
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajahowodd
"The good stuff"? The majority of vehicles on the road are designed to run on regular. Check your vehicle manual. If it says regular, you will get
absolutely no benefit from pumping premium.
Interesting quote in this article is that putting premium into a car that's designed to run on regular is like throwing quarters into a wishing well.
http://www.consumerenergycenter.org/transportation/consumer_... |
While most cars on the road are indeed designed to run "safely" on regular, your statement that there's "absolutely no benefit" from using premium is
- IMHO - inaccurate. Every vehicle is different in how much - or how little - they will benefit from using it though.
The referenced article has its flaws, including no consideration for the change in performance and/or economy due to the spark advance in modern-day
ECM systems. Might seem like small stuff, but little things add up.
When I was young, I admired clever people. Now that I am old, I admire kind people.
– Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heschel
We know we must go back if we live, and we don`t know why.
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MrBillM
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Running on Regular
Even my 1968 VW Bug was designed to run on Regular.
There was a decal on the inside of the Gas Door that said so.
"Use Regular Grade Gasoline. Minimum 93 Octane".
Those were the days.
[Edited on 1-4-2011 by MrBillM]
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BajaGringo
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| Quote: | Originally posted by MrBillM
Even my 1968 VW Bug was designed to run on Regular.
There was a decal on the inside of the Gas Door that said so.
"Use Regular Grade Gasoline. Minimum 93 Octane".
Those were the days.
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Ain't that a fact...
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BajaNomad
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DavidE
Fluor Corporation... is presently at work building three new refineries in Mexico. |
From what I'm reading in the press releases on the Fluor website they're working on the expansion with desulfurization plants at four of the current
facilities: Cadereyta, Madero, Minatitlan and Salina Cruz.
http://investor.fluor.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=124955&p=irol-...
http://investor.fluor.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=124955&p=irol-...
Looks as though Saipem won the bid over Samsung and ICA-Fluor for the desulfurization plants at Salamanca and Tula - and that the expansion at Tula is
significant enough to be called the first "new" refinery built in Mexico in over 30 years:
http://www.bnamericas.com/news/oilandgas/Pemex_CEO_announces...
http://www.downstreamtoday.com/news/article.aspx?a_id=20989
https://www.downstreamtoday.com/Projects/Project.aspx?projec...
When I was young, I admired clever people. Now that I am old, I admire kind people.
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We know we must go back if we live, and we don`t know why.
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Bajahowodd
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| Quote: | Originally posted by BajaNomad
| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajahowodd
"The good stuff"? The majority of vehicles on the road are designed to run on regular. Check your vehicle manual. If it says regular, you will get
absolutely no benefit from pumping premium.
Interesting quote in this article is that putting premium into a car that's designed to run on regular is like throwing quarters into a wishing well.
http://www.consumerenergycenter.org/transportation/consumer_... |
Not quite sure what you are implying here, Jefe. While I wouldn't hang my hat strictly on the term absolutely, given the plus or minus 20 cent a
gallon difference, I just think that there are probably way too many folks out there who are throwing money into the wind with the misunderstanding
that premium fuel is somehow better. Higher anti-knock octane. But fundamentally not "better". The premium fuel is marketed as being better. It's a
lie. As I mentioned, by and large, if your owners manual tells you that your engine runs on regular, you will probably not benefit from buying
premium. The oil companies would.
While most cars on the road are indeed designed to run "safely" on regular, your statement that there's "absolutely no benefit" from using premium is
- IMHO - inaccurate. Every vehicle is different in how much - or how little - they will benefit from using it though.
The referenced article has its flaws, including no consideration for the change in performance and/or economy due to the spark advance in modern-day
ECM systems. Might seem like small stuff, but little things add up.
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DavidE
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Mood: 'At home we demand facts and get them. In Mexico one subsists on rumor and never demands anything.' Charles Flandrau,
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I refer to the expansions as "new refineries" because other than using existing vacuum flashers, and separators, and hydrotreaters, the fuel is
finished in the expansion areas. I look for evidence of a plant called a Delayed Coker. This would suggest Mexico is looking a serious reclamation of
heavy Maya crude for diesel.
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BajaNomad
Super Administrator
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajahowodd
...there are probably way too many folks out there who are throwing money into the wind with the misunderstanding that premium fuel is somehow
better... But fundamentally not "better". The premium fuel is marketed as being better. It's a lie. |
Ahhh... but there it is. It's not a lie, it's true. Premium-grade gasoline is (in general) better, higher-quality gasoline. Here's the thing: some
vehicles can take better advantage of using premium than others though... and that's where it can get into the "is it worth it" debate - and every
vehicle on the road is different.
When I was young, I admired clever people. Now that I am old, I admire kind people.
– Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heschel
We know we must go back if we live, and we don`t know why.
– John Steinbeck, Log from the Sea of Cortez
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David K
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Higher compression engines, as well as engines working in hot conditions under a load... need the fuel to detonate when it is supposed to, by the
spark plug's spark... so the piston will be moving down with the expanding flame front ignited gas/ air mixture.
Lower octane gasoline can ignite from compression heat alone, before the spark plug spark, while the piston is still moving up.. This is the pinging/
rattling sound when you try to accelerate with low octane gas... Basically is the pistons still coming up while the pre-ignited flame front is trying
to push them down!
Premium or higher octane gasoline has a lower flash point and won't ignite before the spark plug does!
Again, it is only beneficial if conditions or the engine compression will cause pre-ignition on Regular gasoline.
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MrBillM
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Mex Reg
The "Problem" with Pemex Regular grade for me (assuming the fuel has nothing else wrong with it) is that it is (nominally) 87 Octane.
Although, my '01 Dodge (360cid) was "officially" rated for 87, I knew from reading the Dodge Forums that satisfactory performance was not realized
(under load) with 87 even when new. Consequently, I've always used 89 with no problems. In Baja, my choice is limited to Premium.
On the New '10 Dodge Ram (5.7 Hemi), the only "Recommended" fuel is 89 Octane so, once again, in Baja the choice has to be Premium.
My '89 Dodge 360cid NEVER ran well on anything OTHER than 91 U.S. or Mex.
Even my '95 Ford Ranger would (will) Ping under load on U.S. (and Mex) 87 from DAY ONE when properly tuned.
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Bajahowodd
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| Quote: | Originally posted by BajaNomad
| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajahowodd
...there are probably way too many folks out there who are throwing money into the wind with the misunderstanding that premium fuel is somehow
better... But fundamentally not "better". The premium fuel is marketed as being better. It's a lie. |
Ahhh... but there it is. It's not a lie, it's true. Premium-grade gasoline is (in general) better, higher-quality gasoline. Here's the thing: some
vehicles can take better advantage of using premium than others though... and that's where it can get into the "is it worth it" debate - and every
vehicle on the road is different.
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So, please educate me on this. When referring to "higher quality". what exactly does that mean? I have been under the longstanding impression that the
fundamental differnce is in the octane rating. Never thought with that exception, there would any additional additives that might help clean the
injectors, imrprove your sound system, or give better mileage to your tires. Seriously, is it not just the higher octane rating?
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BajaNomad
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajahowodd
When referring to "higher quality". what exactly does that mean?... Seriously, is it not just the higher octane rating? |
Octane rating is one factor - and generally the factor almost everyone is most concerned with. Funny thing is, you don't even know what octane rating
they're using in Mexico. Is it the RON, the MON, or the AKI (R+M/2)? It doesn't say on the pump like it does in the USA (if you look at the yellow
sticker in the USA, you'll see the R+M/2 indication - also known as the Anti-Knock Index or AKI - and the AKI is only an average of the RON and MON.
RON is more of a non-load rating while MON is more of an under "load" rating - with MON probably being more important to know than RON or AKI).
Regardless, to get higher octane ratings it necessitates blending in a higher percentage of the higher-quality fuel components.
Assuming Mexico follows the ASTM standards for spark-ignition automotive engine fuel ( Reference: http://www.astm.org/Standards/D4814.htm ) - and the "summer"-type blends that would most likely be used throughout much of the year in Baja - the
Pemex Premium product most likely has a higher amount of aromatics being used and less cracked stock - or other, cheaper - components.
Aromatics are higher-octane components that cause little or no deposits to form, and have a higher heat of vaporization - which cools the intake
charge, and can help reduce the engine's operating temperature. Cruising on a flat stretch of highway the cooling benefit is marginal, but under
"load" can be more significant.
"Load" situations can be accelerating out of corners, going up hills, accelerating to pass others, pulling trailers, even just hot weather conditions,
etc. There's a lot more of this going on along Hwy 1 in Baja than on I-5 in Southern California IMHO.
With modern day ECM systems having knock sensors that adjust spark advance, the higher octane fuel can also help the engine either maintain or improve
the performance it was designed to deliver - especially under "load" situations such as those mentioned. If the knock sensor detects pre-detonation
("knock" or "ping"), it retards the timing, decreases the economy, etc. The ability to maintain or improve the designed performance can lead to
better overall fuel economy.
This doesn't even get into the distillation curve of the different fuels. The temperatures at which the fuel burns off can impact the performance and
economy experienced.
Just about every vehicle on the road has a different situation and may or may not be able to take advantage of the better fuel components that make
the higher octane fuels.
For me, premium in California right now is about 6% higher cost per gallon (in Baja, about 9%). Specifically in my Tacoma I take to Baja (a 2.7L
4-banger), I generally get about 10% (plus or minus) better fuel economy using Premium. It actually appears that (based upon the sample size of about
1800 miles on this trip) the Pemex Premium was slightly more fuel efficient than the Premium I buy in California (generally Chevron, sometimes Shell
or Mobil - but never 76 or ARCO).
The detergent in the Pemex is a big question mark too, but using the Premium makes it less of a long-term issue for engine maintenance/repair/etc.
They only put detergent in street gas because of the deposits the cheaper fuel components leave. The 0% cracked stock of performance gasoline used in
motorsports (think: NASCAR) has no detergent additives, and leaves zero deposits.
What's this mean for the "average Joe"... well - maybe not much. But here's a thought... try a full tank of Premium and see:
A) If fuel mileage improves.
B) If the engine is more responsive when accelerating to pass, pull a hill, or coming out of a corner, etc.
C) If the engine operating temperature is a little lower, especially under load.
If none of the above 3 things seems to be any different or improved, then stick to using regular. Your cost to find this out: probably less than $6
for a 25/gallon (or less) fill-up.
Literally, for everyone YMMV. 
I believe I've stated everything above pretty accurately.
[Edited on 1-5-2011 by BajaNomad]
When I was young, I admired clever people. Now that I am old, I admire kind people.
– Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heschel
We know we must go back if we live, and we don`t know why.
– John Steinbeck, Log from the Sea of Cortez
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David K
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The biggest cost is rebuilding or replacing a damaged engine... As I said above (in simple language), if your engine ever pings using Regular switch
to Premium... or add octane booster imediately! In the old days, we could retard the timing for the poorer Nova gas when that was all we could get.
[Edited on 1-5-2011 by David K]
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MrBillM
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Interesting Read
And, likely MORE than anyone wants to know on the subject.
Although I ran across it because it refers to Ram Magnum engines, the principles apply to other engines as well.
http://dodgeram.org/tech/gas/Trouble/ping.htm
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TMW
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Thanks BajaNomad well put. I've only used premium in my motorcycles but on my next trip to Baja I think I'll try the primium in my truck. I've never
had any problems in any of my last last three, a 91 chevy, 93 Toyota or 04 GMC. My 1980 chevy had a run on problem when Magna first came out around 89
I think. I had a new target engine put in and everytime I stopped and shut it off it would keep running on so I would shut it off with it still in
drive. No such problem in the US.
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tripledigitken
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I'd be curious how many have experienced a "pinging" using Mexican gasoline, and what was the vehicle.
Even running my 1991 Honda fuel injected m/c using regular I had no adverse effects, pinging or reduced power.
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