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Mengano
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| Quote: | Originally posted by JoeJustJoe
I can't think of anything more ridiculous than criminalizing marijuana use. |
I can think of lots of things more ridiculous.
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Mengano
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Ken Bondy
Mengano those isolated instances of local, limited legalization bear no resemblance to the type of legalization that will eliminate the illegal drug
profits. |
I don't know. Maybe you just don't get how to formulate an argument. The time for broad generalizations with no foundation has passed. Please post
some examples for somewhere in the world where legalizing drugs was a success, as measured by a drop in the crime rate and lower social costs to
society to care for vegetables for the rest of their natural lives.
If you feel up to it, you can explain how legalizing drugs in the Netherlands, with a population of 16 million was an isolated, local and limited
experiment and expand on how if it was done on a larger scale it would be different.
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Ken Bondy
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Mengano
| Quote: | Originally posted by Ken Bondy
Mengano those isolated instances of local, limited legalization bear no resemblance to the type of legalization that will eliminate the illegal drug
profits. |
I don't know. Maybe you just don't get how to formulate an argument. The time for broad generalizations with no foundation has passed. Please post
some examples for somewhere in the world where legalizing drugs was a success, as measured by a drop in the crime rate and lower social costs to
society to care for vegetables for the rest of their natural lives.
If you feel up to it, you can explain how legalizing drugs in the Netherlands, with a population of 16 million was an isolated, local and limited
experiment and expand on how if it was done on a larger scale it would be different. |
It seems like you, Mengano, can't formulate an argument without getting sarcastic and insulting. You are very clever at that but I don't think it
adds much to your reasoning. I don't believe that any conclusion about the effects of legalization can be drawn between the US and the Netherlands.
I don't know the crime statistics in the Netherlands, and if crime there can be categorized as drug or non-drug related. Do you?
carpe diem!
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JoeJustJoe
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Mengano
| Quote: | Originally posted by Ken Bondy
Mengano those isolated instances of local, limited legalization bear no resemblance to the type of legalization that will eliminate the illegal drug
profits. |
I don't know. Maybe you just don't get how to formulate an argument. The time for broad generalizations with no foundation has passed. Please post
some examples for somewhere in the world where legalizing drugs was a success, as measured by a drop in the crime rate and lower social costs to
society to care for vegetables for the rest of their natural lives.
If you feel up to it, you can explain how legalizing drugs in the Netherlands, with a population of 16 million was an isolated, local and limited
experiment and expand on how if it was done on a larger scale it would be different. |
Now play nice you cross dressing CD Mengano who loves playing the part of women Online. I remember you played the part of Jenny, and you often don a
dress and play the part of Maggie all the time.
Legalizing drugs would have to take place on a larger scale than someplace like Netherlands, where every addict from neighboring countries would flock
too because the lax or non existent drug laws in the Netherlands.
If Tijuana was truly like Amsterdam in regards to drug laws. You would have a sudden surge of young American pot heads and other types of drug users
who would use Tijuana as their private vice playground, before going back home. ( it's like that already but on a much smaller scale)
So I think legalization/decriminalization should be on a wider scale and happen in both countries USA and Mexico about the same time. It will at least
keep the drug uses at home, and wouldn't create these sin cities like Amsterdam where of course it's going to attract citizens to the particle sins of
drug and sex you can't get legally in other countries.
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goldhuntress
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Mengano is this the site you pulled your stats from??? It doesn't seem to me to be a very objective site. I looked around for those Amsterdam stats in
legalization failures and couldn't find those exact words anywhere except this site. Also saw the other failures you posted there too, except the
Alaska one. Correct me if I'm wrong. In the footnotes there is no info more recent than 1995.
http://www.sarnia.com/groups/antidrug/argument/myths.html
Sarnia is a city in Canada and that is the groups part of the cities website.
Here's another website with different stats as far as the Netherlands are concerned.
http://drugwarfacts.org/cms/Netherlands_v_US
And there's a Wiki site for everything
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arguments_for_and_against_drug_...
I totally support legalization. On the web you can find anything, the problem is figuring out whats BS and what is fact. And that's on both sides of
the issue.
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Mengano
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Ken Bondy
Mengano those isolated instances of local, limited legalization bear no resemblance to the type of legalization that will eliminate the illegal drug
profits. |
| Quote: | Originally posted by Ken Bondy
I don't know the crime statistics in the Netherlands, and if crime there can be categorized as drug or non-drug related. |
OK then, you know the failed legalization efforts were "isolated instances of local, limited legalization [which] bear no resemblance to the type of
legalization that will eliminate the illegal drug profits." And at the same time you, "don't know the crime statistics in the Netherlands, and if
crime there can be categorized as drug or non-drug related."
But you do know that Alaska loosened and then tightened drug laws, as well as the Netherlands, Egypt, China, etc. You just do not know why.
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Mengano
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| Quote: | Originally posted by goldhuntress
I totally support legalization. On the web you can find anything, the problem is figuring out whats BS and what is fact. And that's on both sides of
the issue. |
Don't think this is BS. You can find the same news everywhere:
http://in.reuters.com/article/2011/05/27/us-dutch-cannabis-idINTRE74Q64420110527
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wessongroup
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Mood: Suicide Hot line ... please hold
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"I totally support legalization. On the web you can find anything, the problem is figuring out whats BS and what is fact. And that's on both sides of
the issue."
Ditto's... once politics and/or religion is brought into the solution ... rather than science ... and a rather core principle of our Nation ...
Freedom, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness... if it hurts no one but ME !! the individual citizen ...
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Ken Bondy
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Mengano do you think keeping drugs illegal and having a "War on Drugs" is actually working? You actually think that's the best solution available to
society?
carpe diem!
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Mengano
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Ken Bondy
Mengano do you think keeping drugs illegal and having a "War on Drugs" is actually working? You actually think that's the best solution available to
society? |
I will happily answer your question right after you produce real life examples of where drugs were legalized and the crime rate went down along with
the social cost to society to feed all the brain dead vegetables for the rest of their lives.
What I think, or what you think, is nor really relevant, is it? What is relevant is what will work. If you tried the experiment and it did not work,
why propose trying it again?
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JoeJustJoe
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Mengano
| Quote: | Originally posted by Ken Bondy
Mengano do you think keeping drugs illegal and having a "War on Drugs" is actually working? You actually think that's the best solution available to
society? |
I will happily answer your question right after you produce real life examples of where drugs were legalized and the crime rate went down along with
the social cost to society to feed all the brain dead vegetables for the rest of their lives.
What I think, or what you think, is nor really relevant, is it? What is relevant is what will work. If you tried the experiment and it did not work,
why propose trying it again? |
Here you go. Now answer Ken's question. Although this policy is about decriminalization not legalization. It's close enough for our purposes here:
____________
5 Years After: Portugal's Drug Decriminalization Policy Shows Positive Results Street drugrelated deaths from overdoses drop and the rate of
HIV cases crashes
In the face of a growing number of deaths and cases of HIV linked to drug abuse, the Portuguese government in 2001 tried a new tack to get a handle on
the problem—it decriminalized the use and possession of heroin, cocaine, marijuana, LSD and other illicit street drugs. The theory: focusing on
treatment and prevention instead of jailing users would decrease the number of deaths and infections.
Five years later, the number of deaths from street drug overdoses dropped from around 400 to 290 annually, and the number of new HIV cases caused by
using dirty needles to inject heroin, cocaine and other illegal substances plummeted from nearly 1,400 in 2000 to about 400 in 2006, according to a
report released recently by the Cato Institute, a Washington, D.C, libertarian think tank.
"Now instead of being put into prison, addicts are going to treatment centers and they're learning how to control their drug usage or getting off
drugs entirely," report author Glenn Greenwald, a former New York State constitutional litigator, said during a press briefing at Cato last week.
Under the Portuguese plan, penalties for people caught dealing and trafficking drugs are unchanged; dealers are still jailed and subjected to fines
depending on the crime. But people caught using or possessing small amounts—defined as the amount needed for 10 days of personal use—are brought
before what's known as a "Dissuasion Commission," an administrative body created by the 2001 law.
Each three-person commission includes at least one lawyer or judge and one health care or social services worker. The panel has the option of
recommending treatment, a small fine, or no sanction.
Peter Reuter, a criminologist at the University of Maryland, College Park, says he's skeptical decriminalization was the sole reason drug use slid in
Portugal, noting that another factor, especially among teens, was a global decline in marijuana use. By the same token, he notes that critics were
wrong in their warnings that decriminalizing drugs would make Lisbon a drug mecca.
"Drug decriminalization did reach its primary goal in Portugal," of reducing the health consequences of drug use, he says, "and did not lead to Lisbon
becoming a drug tourist destination."
Walter Kemp, a spokesperson for the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime, says decriminalization in Portugal "appears to be working." He adds that
his office is putting more emphasis on improving health outcomes, such as reducing needle-borne infections, but that it does not explicitly support
decriminalization, "because it smacks of legalization."
Drug legalization removes all criminal penalties for producing, selling and using drugs; no country has tried it. In contrast, decriminalization, as
practiced in Portugal, eliminates jail time for drug users but maintains criminal penalties for dealers. Spain and Italy have also decriminalized
personal use of drugs and Mexico's president has proposed doing the same. .
A spokesperson for the White House's Office of National Drug Control Policy declined to comment, citing the pending Senate confirmation of the
office's new director, former Seattle Police Chief Gil Kerlikowske. The U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA) and the U.S. Department of State's
Bureau of International Narcotics and Law Enforcement Affairs also declined to comment on the report.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=portugal-dr...
_______________________________________
Here is also the widely cited " Cato Institute" article " Drug Decriminalization Policy Pays Off, that is more recent:
http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=12476
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Ken Bondy
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Registered: 12-13-2002
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Mengano
| Quote: | Originally posted by Ken Bondy
Mengano do you think keeping drugs illegal and having a "War on Drugs" is actually working? You actually think that's the best solution available to
society? |
I will happily answer your question right after you produce real life examples of where drugs were legalized and the crime rate went down along with
the social cost to society to feed all the brain dead vegetables for the rest of their lives.
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Mengano, I think your assertion that legalization has been tried and has failed, based on a few isolated small-population citations, is highly flawed,
but I find it extremely interesting. I've never heard anyone argue against legalization with that approach. Most of the time your argument is used
on my side of the issue, the US policy on drugs (make 'em illegal and go have a war on them) has been tried and IT isn't working. I realize you
require me to do some research before you answer my question, but I urge you to waive that requirement and simply answer it, if you actually have an
opinion. I know what you are against (legalization), I have no idea what you are for. What is your solution to the drug problem?
carpe diem!
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Mengano
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Your article on Portugal (population 10 million as opposed to the Netherlands 16 million) only discusses the rate of HIV infection and drug overdose
deaths. Not total crime, and not the social costs of maintaining drug addled vegetables. The article and others from the CATO Institute do say that
overall drug use has increased in Portugal since 2001, as well as the homicide rate. Furthermore, after 2006, the rate of drug deaths has been moving
back up to the pre-legalization level.
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Mengano
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Ken Bondy
What is your solution to the drug problem? |
Education and tough love.
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Dave
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Ken Bondy
Most of the time your argument is used on my side of the issue, the US policy on drugs (make 'em illegal and go have a war on them) has been tried and
IT isn't working. |
I maintain that we have never made "war" on drugs. As I understand it, waging war involves killing your enemy or at least making the consequences so
severe that he abandons the effort.
What would it take for the casual user to modify his behavior? 
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Barry A.
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JoeJustJoe-----------what you cite above is probably one of many reasons why Portugal is "broke"---------these huge social programs are
EXPENSIVE------so much so that no nation other than an artificially rich one via oil, can afford to do these types of programs long-term. It would
be interesting to know if the "enforcement" programs used before "decriminalization" were more expensive than these newer social programs---------That
is the crucial figure, it seems to me, but of course I am a horrible mean person because I don't want to do everything possible to "help" these
"addicts", etc....
You reap what you sow (always), and individual "bad" decisions are not the responsibility of society in general to try and correct, IMO. Lock em up,
Dano!!!! & get them off the streets if they refuse to disapline themselves.
Barry
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Mengano
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Dave
I maintain that we have never made "war" on drugs. As I understand it, waging war involves killing your enemy or at least making the consequences so
severe that he abandons the effort.
What would it take for the casual user to modify his behavior?
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True, there are countries that have virtually no drug problem. They're easy to find, they are the ones with severe penalties for drug possession.
Malaysian legislation provides for a mandatory death penalty for convicted drug traffickers. If you are arrested in possession of 15 grams (1/2 ounce)
of heroin or 200 grams (seven ounces) of marijuana, you will be presumed by law to be trafficking in drugs and executed.
The penalty for drug trafficking in Saudi Arabia is death, and they make no exceptions.
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Iflyfish
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Mengano
| Quote: | Originally posted by Iflyfish
I am not alone in my views regarding the potential positive impact of legalization of drugs. If you go to the following link you will find scores of
Law Enforcement Professionals who share my perspective. |
Not being alone in your argument is not an argument. It is a logical fallacy called Argumentum ad populum. This fallacy concludes a
proposition to be true because many or most people believe it; which alleges: "If many believe so, it is so." As an example, the argument that there
is a God because so many people believe it is true.
Do you have any empirical evidence to present to support your argument that legalizing drugs will lower crime?
I stated:
I am not alone in my views regarding the potential positive impact of legalization of drugs. If you go to the following link you will find scores of
Law Enforcement Professionals who share my perspective. These people are seasoned professionals and reasoned people. I hope you will take the time to
inform yourself of their perspective.
Learn more: http://www.leap.cc/
There are also World Leaders who also propose legalization and I would also encourage you to familiarize yourself with their perspectives. The Global
Commission on Drug Policy responsible for the report includes: former Brazilian president Fernando Cardoso; former Colombian president Cesar Gaviria;
Mexico's former president Ernesto Zedillo; ex-UN chief Kofi Annan; former Chairman of the US Federal Reserve and of the Economic Recovery Board Paul
Volcker; former U.S. Secretary of State George Schultz; Mario Vargas Llosa; Carlos Fuentes; and Richard Branson.
Learn more: http://tinyurl.com/89yesc8
You state:
“Not being alone in your argument is not an argument. It is a logical fallacy called Argumentum ad populum. This fallacy concludes a proposition to be
true because many or most people believe it; which alleges: "If many believe so, it is so." As an example, the argument that there is a God because so
many people believe it is true.
Do you have any empirical evidence to present to support your argument that legalizing drugs will lower crime?”
I appreciate how you could interpret my statement to be an Argumentum ad populum and appreciate your concern about logical fallacies and their impact
on debate. However do you think that providing expert testimony is Argumentum ad populum? I provided you with evidence that my statements were not
simply “talking points” as you assessed them to be. I responded to your trivialization of my point by demonstrating that it was not just Liberal
Talking Points. By citing expert testimony I believe I rebutted your proposition that I was just parroting some “talking points” and was not familiar
with either the literature or the current thinking in the field.
In response to your question regarding an example of where legalization drugs of drugs reduced crime. I would cite the repeal of the Volstead Act,
otherwise known as Prohibition. http://eh.net/encyclopedia/article/miron.prohibition.alcohol
http://www.lp.org/issues/crime-and-violence
Violent crime and homicides rose during Prohibition and dropped after its repeal.
Secondly I would cite Portugal and its success with decriminalization of the use of ALL drugs:
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=portugal-dr...
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article28603.htm
I too find the sarcasm offensive and it does not contribute to a reasoned dialogue. I do appreciate the very real questions that you raise and this is
exactly the dialogue that needs to happen if we are to come up with a successful approach to this very real dilemma.
I posted:
““This is a Gorilla war taking place in urban as well as rural areas. How well did the Viet Nam war work for first the French then the USofA;
Afghanistan for the Russians and then the USofA? What are the successful presidents for wars like this?
How well has the legislation of morality ever worked? Have we stomped out prostitution? How about alcoholism with Prohibition? How about Tobacco use?
Public education and the use of social sanction, shame and laws protecting the places where tobacco can be used have had a major impact on tobacco use
in the USofA. Making tobacco illegal would not stop its use nor would a War on Tobacco.”
You have not answered my questions and then pose yours to me. You are a supporter of the War on Drugs. It is your responsibility to provide evidence
of its success. Where is your evidence of the success of this approach?
I appreciate the goldhuntress link to the LA Times site, lots to explore there and I will take some time to do so. This is the sort of post that is
useful.
Iflyfish |
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Dave
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Iflyfish
How well has the legislation of morality ever worked? Have we stomped out prostitution? How about alcoholism with Prohibition? How about Tobacco use?
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Whether it's prostitution, tobacco or alcohol and drug abuse, effectiveness of legislation is directly proportional to penalties and their
application. A slap on their wrist wouldn't work for most but I'm guessing that amputation at the wrist would work for mostly all.
I say give it a chance. If I'm wrong then I'll admit it and apologize.
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Barry A.
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Fish----------The law enforcement actions are not designed to irradicate the illegal action, just to hopefully control it's spread. But, they have
not been too successful at that, either. Still, like the Dems say about the present economy, "it would be a lot worse if not for our efforts"
 
Barry
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