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Iflyfish
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajaboy
| Quote: | Originally posted by DENNIS
| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajaboy
These benefits and more can be explored at the American Council on the Teaching of Foreign Languages website, specifically:
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In that case, I'll question their objectivity. Nothing supports robust funding quite like robust success.
Not saying I disagree, Zac. Just wondering why anyone would have better cognitive skills as a result of speaking and understanding more than one
language...unless, of course, the questions used to determine the benefits of bilinguality are asked in both languages.
Are they? |
Dennis, here is an oversimplified example...imagine exposing a child to only one syllable words versus a child who is exposed to unlimited words...who
will more likely succeed? Do you agree that children who read are more likely to succeed than those that don't? Seems pretty obvious to me.
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It's simple neurology. More neuronetworks means more capacity to process data, more interconnections between areas of the brain. I will attempt a
computer analogy. The more RAM you have the more data you can process at the same time. I think I got that right.
There are many forms of intelligence. There have been at least nine identified. Language facility is one form of intelligence and it is enhanced by
increased vocabulary and by acquisition of multiple languages. It's more than the words that are learned when acquiring another language. Capiche!?
Much of our experience is processed using the left temperal lobes where the language centers exist, we have an internal dialogue about our perceptions
that interact with our base emotions and preperceptions to help us understand the world and our sensory experience. The more connections we have the
greater our capacity to understand our enviornment. That's the neurology of it.
Some of us are blessed with larger language areas to play with, some of us use smaller areas to greater capacity and we have a split brain with
language processing areas on both hemispheres. If I say A,B,C,D etc. you can pettty much count on the fact that I am using my left temporal lobe if I
sing a,b,c,d etc. you can pretty much count on that coming from my right temporal lobe. If I hit you you can count on the blow having come from my
sensory motor strip. Some of us have larger and more developed sensory motor strips, I try not to hang out with or drink with those guys.
Very interesting thread.
Iflyfish
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DENNIS
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Iflyfish
Some of us are blessed with larger language areas to play with, some of us use smaller areas to greater capacity |
Yeah.....well........uhh......never mind. 
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BajaGringo
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Far from a scientific study but I can share with you that my kids are all bilingual and that simple fact has opened doors / provided wonderful
opportunities for them that would not have been there if they weren't.
Looking back now I wish they had learned Chinese along the way as well...
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Iflyfish
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Ya, it ain't the size of the box it's what you do with it!
Lencho, no! I am afraid of losing synapses; I'm saving mine for tequila.
One of the predictors of reading proficiency is the quality of time parents spend listening to their children read and helping them with reading
skills.
http://www.national-coalition-literacy.org/advocacy/ParentIn...
In my view much of the critique of public education misses the elephant in the room. The family is the PRIMARY socialization resource for children and
parental engagement in learning activities is essential to their child’s success.
Since the Viet Nam War it has required two working parents to support a family and this has led to significant stressors on the family unit, increased
divorce, more single parent families and a slide in real income and free time to engage with children in the sorts of activities that support academic
achievement.
We now live in a time where the TV is watched during dinner time and most families do not sit down to discuss the events of the day, what people are
learning etc.
Adults are becoming more and more preoccupied with just making it each month and that is survival mode, not self actualization mode.
At the same time we have done a poor job of integrating technology into education and the schools of the future will have the students relating to
their computer and the world of information that is out there and they will meet in groups to discuss what they are learning and engage in problem
solving with their teacher. This will free the teacher to really teach each student at their own level and then the teacher can guide the students as
they learn to work in cooperative groups to learn the very skills they will need to work in the increasingly technical work environments. In my view
narrow minded people who do not see the value of art, critical thinking and problem solving, and less concrete activities have stupidly focused our
education on the “three R’s” and teaching to the “No Child Left Behind” tests rather than on the development of creativity and group problem solving.
Innovation in education will not come in America; it will come from Latin America and other countries with intact families and educational systems
that know how to integrate technology into education. We are fast losing that race as we now have a generation of children who have been learned that
what is important is rote learning in order to pass the tests so that the classroom, the teacher, the principal and superintendant look good by
passing the “benchmarks” set in the context of Politics and fundamentalist thinking. Our chickens come home to roost.
Iflyfish
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DENNIS
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How could it be measured, this enhanced cognition, for a person with only one language, and the same person with more than one.....because if it can't
be measured under those controlled circumstances, I proffer my conclusion, based on the same element of supposition and guesswork that supports the
hypothesis that there is a difference, that, in known fact, there isn't.
Actually, I have a strong hunch that the lone value of being able to converse in more than one language is being aggrandized to give those fortunate
individuals a power that is as nebulous as religion.
Soooo.....it's time to deal a hand of irrefutable evidence....the measurable difference.
I'll go get a box of beer and wait. 
.
[Edited on 3-27-2012 by DENNIS]
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vgabndo
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Rick, wouldn't these same systems be the ones which produce the long lasting effects of "Sunday school"? A child which is taught throughout its
formative years, often under threat of punishment, that a certain set of conditions is true, comes into great conflict when, with education, they
learn that their parents beliefs are at odds with the last 150 years of science.
I would venture that there might be a great deal of confusion, AND perhaps a limited ability to LEARN these critical thinking lessons which were
denied them as a child. Any basis for such a judgement?
I'm thinking that simply not learning a second language is likely less damaging than the organized efforts of authority figures to force the iron age
theory of the origin of species on children who are far too young to make a reasoned decision. I think this might prejudice a child against science.
To refer back to DK's contribution, I would submit that after the influence of Martin Luther our national religion has recognized the danger of an
educated, enlightened populace. There is a clear mistrust of the educated, in some circles, as elitists. Children in our cultures are often taught
the result of centuries of science in their schools, and taught by a priest on the weekend that it is all pernicious nonsense. With the churches at
odds with science and education, isn't it natural that we would see a decline in our children's performances?
What part of the Constitution do you think isn't in the curriculum David?
[Edited on 3-26-2012 by vgabndo]
[Edited on 3-26-2012 by vgabndo]
Undoubtedly, there are people who cannot afford to give the anchor of sanity even the slightest tug. Sam Harris
"The situation is far too dire for pessimism."
Bill Kauth
Carl Sagan said, "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself."
PEACE, LOVE AND FISH TACOS
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Bajaboy
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DENNIS
How could it be measured, this enhanced cognition, for a person with only one language, and the same person with more than one.....because if it can't
be measured under those controlled circumstances, I proffer my conclusion, based on the same element of supposition and guesswork that supports the
hypothesis that there is a difference, that, in known fact, there isn't.
Actually, I have a strong hunch that the lone value of being able to converse in more than one language is being aggrandized to give those fortunate
individuals a power that is as nebulous as religion.
Soooo.....it's time to deal a hand of irrefutable evidence....the measurable difference.
I'll go get a box of beer and wait. .
[Edited on 3-27-2012 by DENNIS] |
How about reading some of the research
 Or better yet, take a class in childhood psychology.
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Marc
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| Quote: | Originally posted by vandenberg
I'm Dutch born and didn't leave the Netherlands till I was 25. Am well educated in Holland and could converse in German fairly well. Dutch and German
languages are fairly similar, although folks cannot understand each other unless taught.
For some reason I always had trouble with Roman languages, almost like a mental block. Studied French for 6 years and still can hardly ask where the
bathroom is. Have the identical problem with Spanish. I have a brother in law who lives in Canada. He and my sister have a place in Dominica and vist
there for maybe 4 weeks a year. He carries on phone conversations in Spanish with people he knows there. And he ain't the sharpest knife in the
drawer. ( he doesn't know about this forum. :biggrin
Never had any problems with English. Makes you wonder.
[Edited on 3-26-2012 by vandenberg] |
I have many Dutch friends and I am continually amazed at their command of the English language.
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Marc
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DENNIS
How could it be measured, this enhanced cognition, for a person with only one language, and the same person with more than one.....because if it can't
be measured under those controlled circumstances, I proffer my conclusion, based on the same element of supposition and guesswork that supports the
hypothesis that there is a difference, that, in known fact, there isn't.
Actually, I have a strong hunch that the lone value of being able to converse in more than one language is being aggrandized to give those fortunate
individuals a power that is as nebulous as religion.
Soooo.....it's time to deal a hand of irrefutable evidence....the measurable difference.
I'll go get a box of beer and wait.
.
[Edited on 3-27-2012 by DENNIS] |
Speak English; speak to the world.
On the other hand; I seem to be able to get by, in most situations, in Spanish.
English was a second language for my parents. They chose to speak only English to us kids at home and only spoke Spanish between themselves. Sad isn't
it?
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David K
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Marc
| Quote: | Originally posted by DENNIS
How could it be measured, this enhanced cognition, for a person with only one language, and the same person with more than one.....because if it can't
be measured under those controlled circumstances, I proffer my conclusion, based on the same element of supposition and guesswork that supports the
hypothesis that there is a difference, that, in known fact, there isn't.
Actually, I have a strong hunch that the lone value of being able to converse in more than one language is being aggrandized to give those fortunate
individuals a power that is as nebulous as religion.
Soooo.....it's time to deal a hand of irrefutable evidence....the measurable difference.
I'll go get a box of beer and wait.
.
[Edited on 3-27-2012 by DENNIS] |
Speak English; speak to the world.
On the other hand; I seem to be able to get by, in most situations, in Spanish.
English was a second language for my parents. They chose to speak only English to us kids at home and only spoke Spanish between themselves. Sad isn't
it? |
That is because they knew to become part of the American experience instead of isolating you from it, they insisted you learn the language of the
place you lived, first!
I hope they can make education work better... I made my remarks earlier based on the load of crap that was added to the 'basics' that must be required
to pass... One of them was teaching ISLAM to our middle school kids!!?? I thought religion was not in the public school's arena... Yet, the kids had a
whole section on Islam, but none on the religion of our founders. You can't even pray in public schools... but you darn well better know how to point
to Mecca for the call to prayer.
If the kids can pass the basics, then I am all for teaching Spanish as a second language. Afterall, you have to press 1 for English now-a-days!
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DENNIS
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When I was in school, the popular axiom was, "An optimist learns Russian and a pessimist learns Chinese."
That was about eight wars ago.....maybe more. Lost count.
.
[Edited on 3-27-2012 by DENNIS]
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vgabndo
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David
Do you think the Lemon test was violated?
Lemon test
The Court's decision in this case established the "Lemon test", which details the requirements for legislation concerning religion. It consists of
three prongs:
1. The government's action must have a secular legislative purpose;
2. The government's action must not have the primary effect of either advancing or inhibiting religion;
3. The government's action must not result in an "excessive government entanglement" with religion.
If any of these 3 prongs are violated, the government's action is deemed unconstitutional under the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the
United States Constitution.
Will your case stand up in court? Probably not in the case of your complaint, but I'd invite you to look at the National Motto and Pledge to the flag
through the same lens and tell me how either one of them is not a clear violation of the Establishment Clause. I'm weary of hearing complaints about
people's religious rights being taken away.
Undoubtedly, there are people who cannot afford to give the anchor of sanity even the slightest tug. Sam Harris
"The situation is far too dire for pessimism."
Bill Kauth
Carl Sagan said, "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself."
PEACE, LOVE AND FISH TACOS
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SFandH
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From the article referenced in the original post:
Being bilingual, it turns out, makes you smarter. It can have a profound effect on your brain, improving cognitive skills not related to language
and even shielding against dementia in old age.
This makes sense to me for the simple reason learning a second language is a complicated task and accomplishing it improves your ability to learn
anything. How do you get to Carnegei Hall? Practice, practice, practice.
Learning Spanish has helped me understand English. When translating between the two languages the Latin root of many words in both languages becomes
apparent. I think that improves my comprehension of what I'm reading, in either language.
[Edited on 3-27-2012 by SFandH]
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The Gull
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajaboy
| Quote: | Originally posted by DENNIS
| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajaboy
Study after study shows that kids who are multi-lingual score much better on tests and are more likely to attend college. |
I've been trying every way I can imagine to see how this would be valid and I come up with nothing unless the specific cultures in question are the
subject.
I mean....ten times ten is a hundred in all languages....I think. |
Benefits of Bilingualism (http://www.tcsd.org/education/components/scrapbook/default.p...)
Higher academic achievement on standardized tests (Robinson, 1992; Cooper, 1987; Armstrong & Rogers 1997; etc)
Increased ability in English (Marcos, K., 1998; Dumas, L., 1999)
Beneficial to the development of reading abilities (D'Angiulli, et al., 2001; Diaz, 1982)
Increased general intelligence and IQ scores (Samuels & Friffore, 1979; Peal & Lambert, 1962)
Improved ability to hypothesize in science (Kessler & Quinn, 1980)
Higher SAT and ACT scores (Robinson, 1992; Cooper, 1987; Eddy, 1981; Olsen & Brown, 1992; etc.)
Improved performance at the post-secondary levels (Wiley, 1985)
Improved cognitive abilities (Curtain, 1990; Genesee & Cloud, 1998; Bamford & Mizokawa, 1991; Barik & Swain, 1976; etc.)
Enhanced memory skills (Kormi-Nouri, et al. 2003)
Increased problem solving ability (Stephens & Esquivel, 1997)
Improved verbal and spatial abilities (Diaz, 1982)
Increased cultural awareness and cross-cultural competencies
Expanded career opportunities
These benefits and more can be explored at the American Council on the Teaching of Foreign Languages website, specifically:
http://www.actfl.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=4524 |
...and still cannot market their Master's Degree in Transsexual Hispanic Psychiatry Studies in today's employment scene.
�I won\'t insult your intelligence by suggesting that you really believe what you just said.� William F. Buckley, Jr.
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woody with a view
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damn, Gull. don't be such a stranger!
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DENNIS
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| Quote: | Originally posted by SFandH
the simple reason learning a second language is a complicated task |
That's true, but only past a certain age. Kids absorb languages only as an unconscious communication process. They don't realize it's a foreign
language when they hear and interact with it.
Which brings up another interesting [to me anyway] question. At what point in a child's development does the mind cease to function as a sponge and
begin to seperate that which inherently belongs from outside stimuli
I mean....at some point in a persons life, the process of learning a language shifts from a means to communicate to a tedious job. At what point does
the process morph from automatic to manual?
Does language have a utilitarian level where everything over and above becomes superfluous to basic communication?
We "grown-ups" are constantly being compared to children when it comes to language learning skills...."Hey...you can learn Spanish. My children play
with Pepe and Maria down the street and they talk in Spanish all the time. If a child can do it, why can't you?"
I think that guilt trip is misplaced.
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SFandH
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DENNIS
at some point in a persons life, the process of learning a language shifts from a means to communicate to a tedious job. At what point does the
process morph from automatic to manual? |
Perhaps it's like shooting pool, if you think about it, analyse it, it becomes hard to do.
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DENNIS
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| Quote: | Originally posted by SFandH
Perhaps it's like shooting pool, if you think about it, analyse it, it becomes hard to do. |
Could be. If only we could go to the Pool Hall with the clear mind of a child.
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EnsenadaDr
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Jibberish...
I took Spanish in grammar school and high school. I lived on Miami Beach with Cubans from age 3 to 5, and spoke some Spanish, though at home we
spoke English. (I am not Cuban or Mexican, or Hispanic for that matter). I always spoke a few words of Spanish and could carry on a light
conversation. When I decided to go to medical school, where the books, the lectures and the tests were in total Spanish, I was in my late 30's. I
was completely immersed for 6 years. And now I am fluent, but with a moderate American accent. My daughter started school in Mexico at age 6, and is
now 12 years old. She speaks perfect Spanish with no accent. So, I don't believe you are ever too old for anything, if you want to do it.. and yes I
think learning a language that way certainly helps the thought processes and cleans out alot of the cobwebs..anytime you need to use your brain, I
think it helps the thought process. | Quote: | Originally posted by DENNIS
| Quote: | Originally posted by SFandH
the simple reason learning a second language is a complicated task |
That's true, but only past a certain age. Kids absorb languages only as an unconscious communication process. They don't realize it's a foreign
language when they hear and interact with it.
Which brings up another interesting [to me anyway] question. At what point in a child's development does the mind cease to function as a sponge and
begin to seperate that which inherently belongs from outside stimuli
I mean....at some point in a persons life, the process of learning a language shifts from a means to communicate to a tedious job. At what point does
the process morph from automatic to manual?
Does language have a utilitarian level where everything over and above becomes superfluous to basic communication?
We "grown-ups" are constantly being compared to children when it comes to language learning skills...."Hey...you can learn Spanish. My children play
with Pepe and Maria down the street and they talk in Spanish all the time. If a child can do it, why can't you?"
I think that guilt trip is misplaced. |
[Edited on 3-27-2012 by EnsenadaDr]
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EnsenadaDr
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Surprised at your answer...
Studies have shown that problem solving and creative ability solving tasks improve, as I can attest to since I have to constantly beat my brain in
when I am trying to use Spanish with the past or future tense, and figure how to say things to people so they understand me. | Quote: | Originally posted by DENNIS
| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajaboy
Study after study shows that kids who are multi-lingual score much better on tests and are more likely to attend college. |
I've been trying every way I can imagine to see how this would be valid and I come up with nothing unless the specific cultures in question are the
subject.
I mean....ten times ten is a hundred in all languages....I think. |
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