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EnsenadaDr
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Location: Baja California
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Mood: Move on. It is just a chapter in the past, but don't close the book- just turn the page
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American Indians..
I have to disagree on this one. My good friend is an Indian advocate and she regularly visits her good friend that works as a nurse at an indian
reservation health care center ON the reservation (so why someone is saying they have no access to health care is beyond me_..what other racial group
in the US has the right to exclude taxation on their property (not sure how much taxation is excluded on Indian reservations myself)? She says that
the that particular band of Indians have brand new homes, new cars, and get a revenue per capita from the casinos of $5000 a month, plus access to
public healthcare. Heck, if they can't get good government healthcare, they can pay for private healthcare on that income. She says that most of
them don't have to work on that income, so they spend alot of time drinking and eating without exercising. Wish I had been born an American
Indian. | Quote: | Originally posted by woody with a view
roger hedgec-ck said yesterday that if you want to know what it will be like when obamacare is implemented just look at the Native Americans (the ones
without casinos) and their plight. from day one they were given the worst land, some sugar, corn, alcohol and other crap. to this day they are no
better off than 100 years ago.
guess which of us Americans have the lowest lifespan? the least access to healthcare? you'd be right if you follow my gist.
the Native Americans have had govt giving them everything for over a hundred years and their prospects for "change we can believe in" are the absolute
worst in this country!
just something to think about..... |
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Skipjack Joe
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Location: Bahia Asuncion
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Barry A.
In the case of the American West it was a little more complicated than "destroy" tho, for destructions sake. The settlers had their reasons, tho they
were incredibly greedy & evil, for eliminating the indigenous peoples who "stood in their way". It was called Manifest Destiny, and woe the
people that tried to resist it, and most "whites" believed in it. Mankind (all mankind) has a history of doing this sort of thing, unfortunately,
which is what you are saying, I believe.
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I doubt that individual settlers knew anything about a Manifest Destiny. I doubt that Daniel Boone knew anything about it.
I just think that americans just thought of it as unsettled land. The fact that a few subhuman aborigines occupied it was simply a nuisance. People
simply moved onto land that was available.
Why would this be surprising. No country in europe would survive without a standing army. Nobody was going to respect your right to live on your land
because it's 'the right thing to do'. Adding land to your territory made you more powerful. Heck, I'm still peeed at what the Ottoman Empire did to
the Balkans.
Nothing has changed. Let's pretend that we just now discovered North America with these natives. What would be the outcome. I believe the takeover
again would take place. Just not so brutally. The same deals would be made with an innocent mind.
I wouldn't even call the process greedy and evil. We are wired to take care of ourselves.
[Edited on 4-28-2012 by Skipjack Joe]
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tripledigitken
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Registered: 9-27-2006
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| Quote: | Originally posted by EnsenadaDr
I have to disagree on this one. My good friend is an Indian advocate and she regularly visits her good friend that works as a nurse at an indian
reservation health care center ON the reservation (so why someone is saying they have no access to health care is beyond me_..what other racial group
in the US has the right to exclude taxation on their property (not sure how much taxation is excluded on Indian reservations myself)? She says that
the that particular band of Indians have brand new homes, new cars, and get a revenue per capita from the casinos of $5000 a month, plus access to
public healthcare. Heck, if they can't get good government healthcare, they can pay for private healthcare on that income. She says that most of
them don't have to work on that income, so they spend alot of time drinking and eating without exercising. Wish I had been born an American
Indian. | Quote: | Originally posted by woody with a view
roger hedgec-ck said yesterday that if you want to know what it will be like when obamacare is implemented just look at the Native Americans (the ones
without casinos) and their plight. from day one they were given the worst land, some sugar, corn, alcohol and other crap. to this day they are no
better off than 100 years ago.
guess which of us Americans have the lowest lifespan? the least access to healthcare? you'd be right if you follow my gist.
the Native Americans have had govt giving them everything for over a hundred years and their prospects for "change we can believe in" are the absolute
worst in this country!
just something to think about..... |
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Woody was specifically referring to Indian Reservations without casinos, a totally different situation from what you describe.
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Oddjob
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Posts: 330
Registered: 7-30-2011
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| Quote: | Originally posted by EnsenadaDr
I have to disagree on this one. My good friend is an Indian advocate and she regularly visits her good friend that works as a nurse at an indian
reservation health care center ON the reservation (so why someone is saying they have no access to health care is beyond me_..what other racial group
in the US has the right to exclude taxation on their property (not sure how much taxation is excluded on Indian reservations myself)? She says that
the that particular band of Indians have brand new homes, new cars, and get a revenue per capita from the casinos of $5000 a month, plus access to
public healthcare. Heck, if they can't get good government healthcare, they can pay for private healthcare on that income. She says that most of
them don't have to work on that income, so they spend alot of time drinking and eating without exercising. Wish I had been born an American
Indian. | Quote: | Originally posted by woody with a view
roger hedgec-ck said yesterday that if you want to know what it will be like when obamacare is implemented just look at the Native Americans (the ones
without casinos) and their plight. from day one they were given the worst land, some sugar, corn, alcohol and other crap. to this day they are no
better off than 100 years ago.
guess which of us Americans have the lowest lifespan? the least access to healthcare? you'd be right if you follow my gist.
the Native Americans have had govt giving them everything for over a hundred years and their prospects for "change we can believe in" are the absolute
worst in this country!
just something to think about..... |
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So Dr. are you saying that since your friend visits a reservation with a casino and onsite government healthcare that all Native Americans enjoy a
life free of poverty? Perhaps you should visit a Navajo reservation in Northern Arizona or the Oglala Sioux Pine Ridge Indian Reservation and then
make your comments. I doubt that you would wish to have been born an American Indian after seeing how they live in the reservations that don't have
casinos or other sources of income.
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shari
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Posts: 13048
Registered: 3-10-2006
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Mood: there is no reality except the one contained within us "Herman Hesse"
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thank you DK for bringing this important work to light...and gnukid for the link. It is a very concise, honest, easy to understand history of the
americas that should be required viewing in all schools....finally the true history is being told and the atrocities are being acknowledges so healing
can begin.
Perry...gracias for the sad news of Floyd Red Crow's passing on...tragic...so young. He made his people proud...my respects...may you soar with the
eagles.
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Barry A.
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Location: Redding, Northern CA
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Mood: optimistic
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Just for the record-----------Floyd Red Clowd was born in Aug of 1936 making him 75, not 71 if I read the article right.
RIP Floyd Red Clowd.
I totally agree with Shari on this.
Barry
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norte
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Barry A.
Just for the record-----------Floyd Red Clowd was born in Aug of 1936 making him 75, not 71 if I read the article right.
RIP Floyd Red Clowd.
I totally agree with Shari on this.
Barry |
Check the facts folks. He died dec 13, 2007.
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EnsenadaDr
Banned
Posts: 5027
Registered: 9-12-2011
Location: Baja California
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Mood: Move on. It is just a chapter in the past, but don't close the book- just turn the page
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The Question remains..
By the way, Odd Job, I did visit a Navajo reservation in Taos, New Mexico and the question remains, why don't the Indians have casinos in New Mexico
so they can raise money as well, Taos is quite a popular resort and could bring in alot of revenue. | Quote: | Originally posted by Oddjob
| Quote: | Originally posted by EnsenadaDr
I have to disagree on this one. My good friend is an Indian advocate and she regularly visits her good friend that works as a nurse at an indian
reservation health care center ON the reservation (so why someone is saying they have no access to health care is beyond me_..what other racial group
in the US has the right to exclude taxation on their property (not sure how much taxation is excluded on Indian reservations myself)? She says that
the that particular band of Indians have brand new homes, new cars, and get a revenue per capita from the casinos of $5000 a month, plus access to
public healthcare. Heck, if they can't get good government healthcare, they can pay for private healthcare on that income. She says that most of
them don't have to work on that income, so they spend alot of time drinking and eating without exercising. Wish I had been born an American
Indian. | Quote: | Originally posted by woody with a view
roger hedgec-ck said yesterday that if you want to know what it will be like when obamacare is implemented just look at the Native Americans (the ones
without casinos) and their plight. from day one they were given the worst land, some sugar, corn, alcohol and other crap. to this day they are no
better off than 100 years ago.
guess which of us Americans have the lowest lifespan? the least access to healthcare? you'd be right if you follow my gist.
the Native Americans have had govt giving them everything for over a hundred years and their prospects for "change we can believe in" are the absolute
worst in this country!
just something to think about..... |
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So Dr. are you saying that since your friend visits a reservation with a casino and onsite government healthcare that all Native Americans enjoy a
life free of poverty? Perhaps you should visit a Navajo reservation in Northern Arizona or the Oglala Sioux Pine Ridge Indian Reservation and then
make your comments. I doubt that you would wish to have been born an American Indian after seeing how they live in the reservations that don't have
casinos or other sources of income. |
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Barry A.
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Posts: 10007
Registered: 11-30-2003
Location: Redding, Northern CA
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Mood: optimistic
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| Quote: | Originally posted by norte
| Quote: | Originally posted by Barry A.
Just for the record-----------Floyd Red Clowd was born in Aug of 1936 making him 75, not 71 if I read the article right.
RIP Floyd Red Clowd.
I totally agree with Shari on this.
Barry |
Check the facts folks. He died dec 13, 2007. |
Ah HA  You are correct, "norte"-------I stand corrected (I missed the
date at the bottom of the article)
Thanks for that.
Barry
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redmesa
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Posts: 580
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Location: Van Isle and Bahia Asuncion
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| Quote: | Originally posted by ateo
I predict this being a 9 page thread....all I can say is what was done to the Native Americans was vile, disastrous to the culture, and still guides
the plight of many Native Americans....
Seems it's human nature to destroy other creeds, colors, religions, ethnicities....
Probably dates back to Homosapiens destroying Neanderthals.....That's just a theory though. |
I think the word HOMO SAPIEN (WISE MAN) given to our genus should be changed to HOMO CAUDEX ( STUPID MAN). We deiinitely are not "sapien" then or
now.
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gnukid
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When I was young, I would walk and look for indigenous people's artifacts, I often found them.
In Baja I often look across the vista and imagine where indigenous people might have been and what they did. My neighbors and I share in discussion of
the indigenous people's, we have trained ourselves to look for signs of camps, tools etc... Following the thread written by Tripper, we went to a
location and scanned for evidence, we found many tools and arrowheads.
The point is we always find artifacts, yet we are told there were so few indigenous people. But the artifacts are everywhere? Something tells me there
many more indigenous people than we are led to believe.
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Iflyfish
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Thanks Gnu for posting this.
The discussion reminds me of one I watched on TV upon the release of the film "Last Temptation of Christ" a film on the human/divine nature of Christ.
This was a film done my Martin Scorsese, who was a Jesuit Priest at one time. Anyway a panel of clergy are being interviewed, about five of them, the
last one, an Episcopalian, is asked for his view on the film. He responded "It sounds like I have seen a different film than my fellow clergy have
seen. I wonder if we could see a show of hands of how many of you have actually seen this film?" Dead silence and a pan of the dais showed no hands
raised. Then followed an excoriation of the film and protestations that they would not ever see this blasphemous film.
Thanks for posting the link.
My belief is that human beings are genocidal creatures and even a cursory reading of history confirms this conclusion. The Haida people slaved all the
way from the Queen Charlotte's to San Francisco Bay, there is evidence of cannibalism among the Anastasie, and more recently the genocide documented
in this film. In our life time there was N-zi Germany, Uganda, The Sudan, Bosnia/Hersogovina, Cambodia etc. These facts do not negate in any way
discount the horrific destruction of so many native cultures in the New World but only serve to broaden the context of our understanding of human
nature vis a vis genocide.
Iflyfish
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DianaT
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| Quote: | Originally posted by EnsenadaDr
By the way, Odd Job, I did visit a Navajo reservation in Taos, New Mexico and the question remains, why don't the Indians have casinos in New Mexico
so they can raise money as well, Taos is quite a popular resort and could bring in alot of revenue. |
There is a Navajo Nation in Taos???? Maybe there are some small groups??? A couple of the pueblos in the Santa Fe area do have casinos now. Each
pueblo is separate and there are a few different language groups.
Obviously, casinos require people so casinos would not work for the more remote reservations.
IFLYFISH --- I really don't want to believe in your genocide theory as a part of human nature, but it is difficult to dispute.
Edited to get out of the quote box!
[Edited on 4-28-2012 by DianaT]
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David K
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Seeing that this video is on You Tube and free for the viewing, I guess there is no interest in purchasing it from the co-producer, my neighbor?
Despite what some of you think my motives are, they are to present history as best as we know it to be, and while the missionaries admitted to
punishing runaways and other criminals with the lash, they did record their activities so we can read of it today. The native Californians left no
written record of their life or history, other than the cave art from some unknown race (a race of 'giants' are what the Cochimí told the padres).
This video, while it is condeming the actions of Europeans and European-Americans (is that better than saying 'white men'?), is a rare view or text
presented by someone on the Native American's behalf. I thought it would be refreshing to present the Indian's side of the California story...
Well, no matter what I post here, there is no pleasing some of you. The funny thing is if someone else posted this with very same title, they would be
made a hero for 'giving it to the evil white man'! 
So, as I have said so often, take from Nomad what you can enjoy or use, add your own details, but don't tarnish a thread because you have a political
issue with the messenger... 
Bye Bye
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EnsenadaDr
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Location: Baja California
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Mood: Move on. It is just a chapter in the past, but don't close the book- just turn the page
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Indians in Taos
Diana,
This was a long time ago...and so I refreshed my memory and it could have been the band of Pueblo Indians http://www.indianpueblo.org/19pueblos/taos.html
| Quote: | Originally posted by DianaT
| Quote: | Originally posted by EnsenadaDr
By the way, Odd Job, I did visit a Navajo reservation in Taos, New Mexico and the question remains, why don't the Indians have casinos in New Mexico
so they can raise money as well, Taos is quite a popular resort and could bring in alot of revenue. |
There is a Navajo Nation in Taos???? Maybe there are some small groups??? A couple of the pueblos in the Santa Fe area do have casinos now. Each
pueblo is separate and there are a few different language groups.
Obviously, casinos require people so casinos would not work for the more remote reservations.
IFLYFISH --- I really don't want to believe in your genocide theory as a part of human nature, but it is difficult to dispute.
Edited to get out of the quote box!
[Edited on 4-28-2012 by DianaT] |
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woody with a view
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just look at the inner cities. welfare programs everywhere but no jobs. been this way all my life and only seems to be getting worse as time goes on.
a govt program isn't gonna make your life better but a job will! i grew up on welfare. Mom got herself a nursing degree and she did alright by any
measure. i've been on unemployment and know guys who work just so they can qualify for 6 more months of free $... it's a life with no future, just
scraping by. i've bent over backwards to keep working. let's see..... Yuma, Barstow, Ventura, 29 Palms, San Nicolas Island, San Clemente Island and
after summer prolly Yuma again. all while my family is 3-5 hours away by car. i bought a 2002 brand new for work and it has 177k on it now. do the
math....
it ain't no "good" life, but it's my life. and i'm glad to have it.
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David K
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| Quote: | Originally posted by woody with a view
just look at the inner cities. welfare programs everywhere but no jobs. been this way all my life and only seems to be getting worse as time goes on.
a govt program isn't gonna make your life better but a job will! i grew up on welfare. Mom got herself a nursing degree and she did alright by any
measure. i've been on unemployment and know guys who work just so they can qualify for 6 more months of free $... it's a life with no future, just
scraping by. i've bent over backwards to keep working. let's see..... Yuma, Barstow, Ventura, 29 Palms, San Nicolas Island, San Clemente Island and
after summer prolly Yuma again. all while my family is 3-5 hours away by car. i bought a 2002 brand new for work and it has 177k on it now. do the
math....
it ain't no "good" life, but it's my life. and i'm glad to have it. |
Good for you Woody! Have you seen the following bumper sticker? "Irritate a Liberal: Get a Job!" (I think it was pee Off instead of Irritate, however)
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watizname
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I think Joe and Flyfish are spot on. Times have changed and have brought a different set of morals with them. I think all societies of the past have
at some point committed atrocities. As I understand it, the Native Americans themselves warred on each other. No way am I saying that I condone the
atrocities, it is just something that happened in the past, and probably will again in the future someplace in this world. But as a "white man", I'm
tired of being blamed for the sins of my fathers.
I yam what I yam and that\'s all what I yam.
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Barry A.
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Location: Redding, Northern CA
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DianaT
| Quote: | Originally posted by EnsenadaDr
By the way, Odd Job, I did visit a Navajo reservation in Taos, New Mexico and the question remains, why don't the Indians have casinos in New Mexico
so they can raise money as well, Taos is quite a popular resort and could bring in alot of revenue. |
There is a Navajo Nation in Taos???? Maybe there are some small groups??? A couple of the pueblos in the Santa Fe area do have casinos now. Each
pueblo is separate and there are a few different language groups.
Obviously, casinos require people so casinos would not work for the more remote reservations.
IFLYFISH --- I really don't want to believe in your genocide theory as a part of human nature, but it is difficult to dispute.
Edited to get out of the quote box!
[Edited on 4-28-2012 by DianaT] |
I agree with IFLYFISH but don't believe that what he says is a "theory", unfortunately---------it is simply a fact, based on History as he says. Why
that is I don't have a clue, but I, as he appears to, believe it.
There are reasons why the Navaho Nation in Arizona and western New Mexico, as well as the Hopi and many other "tribes" don't participate in the Casino
Game, but for the life of me I can't remember why. What Diane says is true, and the remoteness is part of the story. Many of the tribes that do have
very successful Casinos share the wealth with other tribes, however. Still, there are pockets of severe poverty, as has been stated above, so
obviously many Native People are not sharing in the new wealth and good fortune of the others. The 'Moral Hazard' of charity and help has taken it's
toll on some folks (which I submit almost always happens) and they simply have learned to rely on Govt. aid, period. The blame has to be shared by
both the givers and the receivers, it seems to me, for the givers setting up this situation, and the receivers excepting it as a 'way of
life'-----again Human Nature trumps all.
Barry
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DianaT
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
The native Californians left no written record of their life or history,
This video, while it is condeming the actions of Europeans and European-Americans (is that better than saying 'white men'?), is a rare view or text
presented by someone on the Native American's behalf.
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Written history, is not the only type of history.
Rare view? A good one, well done, but not rare. Especially since the 1960's there have been many books written from a Native American's point of
view. While many of them have been written for the academic world (unfortunately many historians like to write strictly for other historians ) the
history began to spill over into popular literature.
One of the most popular books was Vine Deloria's
Custer Died for Your Sins There are things in his book that have been disputed, but it was a VERY popular book and provided a different view.
It did lead many to start thinking about a different point of view.
If someone is really interested in expanding their ideas about this history there are LOTS of books available from many point's of view --- and there
is no ONE Native American point of view.
Curious, since you keep quoting what was written by the Jesuits, etc., have you actually studied any of their writings or are you strictly depending
on how others interpreted them?
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