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chuckie
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+10
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mtgoat666
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
Capitalism creates the most opportunity and socialism has failed everywhere it has been tried.
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if capitalism is so great, why does the ultimate capitalist country, the USA, have such high murder rates, such high poverty rate, so many children
poor and malnourished, so many unavailable to afford health care, etc.
do you measure success in terms how how the top 30% of population can easily succeed, or do you measure success in how the least fortunate survive or
fail?
i see eurpopean socialism has created success for all classes, and seems to create more opportunity for more people, just saying!
seems like the percentage of poor and starving is quite high in USA relative to europe, eh?
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David K
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We are not the ultimate capitalist country. Your side needs poor and uninformed voters to keep their jobs.
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captkw
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UMM BOYS !!
The highest rated country to live in the world is New Zealand !! the usa is not top dog by any means...keep watching that TV..Canada blows the USA
away in almost all social aspects and way of life...I know 10 hrs a day hearing that the usa is the best fogs your brain..but the hay ride is over in
the USA !! sorry fact of life !!
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mtgoat666
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| Quote: | Originally posted by captkw
The highest rated country to live in the world is New Zealand !! the usa is not top dog by any means...keep watching that TV..Canada blows the USA
away in almost all social aspects and way of life...I know 10 hrs a day hearing that the usa is the best fogs your brain..but the hay ride is over in
the USA !! sorry fact of life !! |
A lot of places do it better than the USA. But we got the most and biggest bombs! 
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captkw
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MR Goat !!
LOL,,I would have beer with you !! your points have valid notions and thoughts !!! Myself would like to see a day where this planet was run by people
and not govs,armys,,weapons,,BANKERS.....but,, sadly I don't see that coming soon enough!! I'm beginning to have a heavy heart on the crap that's
happening in the world as we homosapeians are wrecking it.... everyday I just keep reading about sealife dieoff around world and its being reported
more and more daily !!! I ask ??? Can we change for the next GEN ?? or are we past the point of no return ???
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mtgoat666
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| Quote: | Originally posted by captkw
are we past the point of no return ??? |
We are Fuuccked. Our species is doomed by our own selfishness. It's too late. Every man for himself. Eat or be killed. Dog eat dog. This is the end.
We will fry under global frying pan climate, and the seas will run over our coasts and wash away the few scraps of our corpses left behind by the
jackals.
Or perhaps scientists are all just liars and Obama is an Indonesian sleeper agent of Kenyan birth and the boy wonder Paul Ryan will save us from
certain doom under Hillary.
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chuckie
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Take it to OT
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DENNIS
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| Quote: | Originally posted by mtgoat666
We will fry under global frying pan climate, |
I could use some of that right now. I've been freezin' my butt off. 
"YOU CAN'T LITTER ALUMINUM"
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MitchMan
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We the people, in the aggregate, have the ultimate political power. That is the way it has always been and that is the way it will always be.
The problem is that we the people haven't exercised our power properly, and, that is the case around the world and in the USA today. The power is
completely in our own hands, but we aren't using it properly because we keep voting for the wrong people and for the wrong legislation.
The founders of this country intended that "good government" was to be chosen to be run by elected people that we would select by we the people
employing "truth" and "reflection and choice" in order to elect those people that govern according to the "true interest" of the community for the
"public good".
Instead we the people have allowed certain powerful moneyed "factions" amongst us to influence our society to vote for and support many things and
people that are against our own best interest.
It is unfortunate that we the people (and those that we have elected) do not know enough about macro and microeconomics to vote intelligently.
If we the people, collectively, were truly focused on the "true interest of our community" and "the public good", we have all the ability in the world
to vote for those candidates that would conduct "good government" and affectively address our environment and our economy.
The finger of blame for our government falling short is squarely pointed at us, i.e., "we the people" and not our leaders as it is "we the people"
that have elected them...they didn't elect themselves.
[Edited on 2-5-2014 by MitchMan]
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MitchMan
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Pescador
When the goat speaks about economic matters, it is certain that you are about to be enlightened in a socialistic way. I can only imagine what the
country he would design would look like. Let's see, China, Venezuela, Cuba, etc., and the list goes on. |
Socialism and Capitalism are both recognized economic philosophies, both have their own validity and shortcomings; there are truths and falsehoods and
strengths and weaknesses found in both. If you want to consider yourself knowledgeable enough to cast your opinions on either, it behooves you to
sufficiently understand their principles and both the weaknesses and strengths of each. Otherwise you will wallow in folly. Therefore, I appreciate
being �enlightened� when enlightenment is presented, and you should be too.
BTW, I don�t think there is any one person (certainly not any member of this forum) who could �design� any country, and that list of persons who
cannot goes on and on.
| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
Funny how some people think wealth comes from government... when it is just the opposite. People create wealth and government takes it away.
Capitalism creates the most opportunity and socialism has failed everywhere it has been tried.
Up with ALL Business (big and small) and down with Big Government! |
Please! More �talking points�? Everything you wrote was a pure talking point, that is, phrases that someone else wrote verbatim before you copied
them here. I have heard each and every one of them many, many times recited by many other people. If you would compose your own original thoughts
and share them with sufficient and adequate logic/support, that might constitute �enlightenment�.
Capitalistic systems have failed many times, and, it�s an ongoing experience. In fact, every time a business fails, that is a capitalistic failure.
Ever hear of the Great Depression, the Dot Com Bubble, the Great /Recession of 2007/8? A characteristic of capitalism is recurring boom and bust
cycles where many people are severely hurt financially. Also, there is the ever present lopsided and inequitable disparity of income and wealth that
is severely plaguing the world and this country at its worst. Disparity itself is one of the most significant factors that is hurting our market
based capitalistic systems around the world and particularly in this country right now.
Geesus man, open your eyes! A blind one-sided and errored Pollyanna perspective serves no one and certainly isn�t �enlightenment�.
The worst part of socialism is that it doesn�t benefit from the information embedded in markets and market prices (Hayek). One of socialisms failures
is that it has been too difficult to know how much of which commodities to produce or not produce and where to deliver it, let alone how much resource
to invest is the option level of product quality. Huge failure. HOWEVER, since our current technology of data bases, networking, internet and other
ubiquitous communication, the ability to gather info quickly and analyze it even quicker is making this defect less and less an issue.
Briefly stated, capitalism�s problems are many, the most obvious is that markets are not perfect;, almost never are, and our market based capitalism
relies greatly on its markets. Also, our markets have been subjected to the corrupting influence of excess greed and political manipulation.
Furthermore, the more unregulated and purely unfettered markets are, the more bad side effects (called by economists as �externalities�) that horribly
hurt society come about. FROM A PRACTICAL PERSPECTIVE, THE ONLY THING THAT CAN TAME EXTERNALITIES EFFECTIVELY IS PROPER REGULATION BY AN
�APPROPRIATELY SIZED� GOVERNMENT�WHATEVER SIZE THAT IS.
Now, DavidK, I you have any �original� ideas to cure everything, please let us know. And, please, no talking points. Just your own original logic
and info if you don� mind.
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David K
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Failures in capitalism often are due to both government interference (over regulations and taxation) and labor union demands... less work, more pay...
can't fire bad workers...
Capitalism doesn't fail as it is the natural method for people to do business.
What I type here are my thoughts, that's all... I already know there is no convincing people who are stuck in their thinking. They will need to figure
it for themselves. What is truly sad is that they are taking America down the drain by sticking to those failed ideologies.
More Americans on Food Stamps than ever before is not a good thing.
People loosing their health care or the doctor they want to keep is not a good thing.
People wanting full time work with one company but can only get part time is not a good thing.
Wake up!
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mtgoat666
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
Capitalism doesn't fail as it is the natural method for people to do business. |
all systems and nations fail eventually, history tells us so. no system or nation can persist indefinitely.
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MitchMan
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
Failures in capitalism often are due to both government interference (over regulations and taxation) and labor union demands... less work, more pay...
can't fire bad workers... |
After the Crash of the Stock Market and the onset of the Great Depression, the thing that all governments did was to impose regulation and great
policy change to cure and reign in that Catastrophe, the same for the Financial Crisis of 2007/8�not deregulate further. Virtually all economists
agree that it was lack of adequate regulation and lack of implementation of existing regulation that was the great basic factor of the 2007/8 debacle.
Even Greenspan admitted that in congressional hearings. Did you know that both Greenspan and Bernanke could have single handedly issued policy to
prohibit subprime loans�but didn�t? Did you know that Bush II refused a request by the Commodities Futures Trading Commission to reign in and
regulate derivatives before the Crash of 2007/8? During the prosperity of decades preceding the Reagan Administration labor unions were at their
pinnacle and at the time of the 2007/8 Crash Unions were in a state of decimation�with greater income and wealth disparity and more people in poverty.
Your claim that gov interference and over regulation and labor unions are often the cause/reason of failures in capitalism is unbalanced, one sided,
overly simplistic, excessively myopic and absolutely more often than not, wrong.
| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
Capitalism doesn't fail as it is the natural method for people to do business. |
Captialism doesn�t fail�are you BLIND, man? Cite the failures that I mentioned in this thread and then tell me how what I wrote is wrong. I dare you.
Prove it.
This �natural method� you speak of is an ideal�that doesn�t exist and has never existed and will never exist. There will never be an instance in time
that ideal will ever exist in any large society. In short, you are dreaming and you have swallowed hook line and singer another talking point. In
order to have pure unfettered capitalism, there has to be a lack of corruption, total and equal knowledge of all facts surrounding a product and
pricing, and completely rational judgment each and every time and at all times that deals/purchases/contracts/sales occur. There was a Noble Prize
awarded this century on the basis of �Assymetries of Knowledge� spelling out and proving the impossibility and imbalance of knowledge in the market
place.
�Capitalism doesn�t fail� statement is quite na�ve, easily disproven�and very vulnerable. I can go to prominent right wing leaning economists and
draw plenty of proof material from them to show the folly of your statement. Heck, history disproves your statement.
| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
What I type here are my thoughts, that's all... I already know there is no convincing people who are stuck in their thinking. |
Are you �stuck in your thinking�, DavidK?
| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
They will need to figure it for themselves. What is truly sad is that they are taking America down the drain by sticking to those failed ideologies.
More Americans on Food Stamps than ever before is not a good thing.
People loosing their health care or the doctor they want to keep is not a good thing.
People wanting full time work with one company but can only get part time is not a good thing.
Wake up! |
I encourage you, DavidK, to do some (any) reading on the causes of the Great Depression and the Great Recession. You will find that virtually all
such material by prominent recognized authorities will tell you it was lack of proper regulation and lack of proper implementation of existing
regulation that caused both together with greed and corruption in business�not the answer your statements imply. What is sad, DavidK, is ignorance of
the facts and macroeconomics by those who put out their ideologies and talking points as though it was universal uncontested truth.
BTW, You would be hard put to find a majority of economists and recognized literature that ignore the trend from the beginning of the Reagan
Administration to the Crash of 2007/8 of declining salaries, wealth and income disparity, the rise of too big to fail out of control corporations all
of which increased with the decline of collective bargaining, lack of will to implement anti trust regulation, decline in tax rates at the top
brackets, and lack of business regulation promoted by the Reagan, Bush I and II administrations and Conservative thinking. Increase your actual
knowledge and look up the graphs of trends of real wages, income and wealth disparity, Income tax revenues and rates, attacks and undermining of
government agencies and removal of regulation that even Conservative economists said led to the Crash of 2007/8.
If you don�t like the current poverty in this nation, look to pre 2008 years to explain the cause. If you don�t like the current ACA, maybe you like
the fact that health care cost have been rising by over 10% a year for some time and many people were prohibited from getting coverage at all and
around 50 million Americans had no health ins and most personal bankruptcies were related to healthcare costs and that without ACA none of those
things were being addressed at all. Talk about going down the drain.
The most heinous of preconceived notion is to believe that a nation�s economy at any one point in time is only affected by the current administration
at that point in time and not by preceding administrations� policy or preceding trends. Virtually all economists know that the last 6 years of
economic woes in this country and abroad are a direct result of what went on before 2008. Economies are continuums. WAKE UP!
Still need some original ideas from you, DavidK.
[Edited on 2-6-2014 by MitchMan]
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mtgoat666
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
Capitalism... it is the natural method for people to do business.
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who is to say there is not a better way?
a classless, stateless, communal society may be a good way to live.
i would rather have a system for the 100% instead of a system for the 1%.
the industrial revolution led to our current system, and it's unbalanced income distribution.
why do you think the system of mega-corporations with a small elite and a large toiling populace is the best we can do?
dk: think outside the box! don't settle for status quo!
the politicians are selling you pablum to keep the entrenched special (large corporation) interests in power - perhaps there is a better way!
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Mexitron
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| Quote: | Originally posted by mtgoat666
| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
Capitalism... it is the natural method for people to do business.
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who is to say there is not a better way?
a classless, stateless, communal society may be a good way to live.
i would rather have a system for the 100% instead of a system for the 1%.
the industrial revolution led to our current system, and it's unbalanced income distribution.
why do you think the system of mega-corporations with a small elite and a large toiling populace is the best we can do?
dk: think outside the box! don't settle for status quo!
the politicians are selling you pablum to keep the entrenched special (large corporation) interests in power - perhaps there is a better way!
|
Communism, per se (the real thing, not the political system of Russia et al) works fine with tiny settlements but it doesn't pan out to the macro
scale. Cooperativism may pan out better and has a few corporate models. As Mitch man so eloquently said---Capitalism is an ideal, its a north pole
to be balanced out by a south pole...some blend of government and free markets is necessary. No system is perfect nor ever will be though. Except
Star Trek's Federation and they haven't actually said how they worked out the details yet
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MitchMan
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You got that right, Goat.
To go from our current system to a classless, stateless, communal society would involve and "evolution" that would require a cultural change,
education, and spiritual enlightenment of one and all.
In the meantime, we could improve our ostensible market based capitalism considerably by melding a balance of communal concepts and market based
concepts to arrive at a balanced economy where the bottom 95% get their fair share of compensation for what they do. Right now, the systemic problem
is that our and other current market based capitalistic systems over reward/compensate the top 1% or 2% and under compensate the rest. I do believe
in an economy that has some disparity as it will then suit the work ethic of individuals and provide incentives, but what we have now and around the
world is way, way out of whack. The disparity is so enormous that it itself is hurting the economy.
It would be possible to achieve an economy where income was more balanced and the working class would get its fair share (which it is not), then there
would be more income in the hands of all people and they wouldn't need government assistance, they could afford necessities and education and
healthcare, and even have enough to pay some income taxes.
In the absence of a balanced economy, the only major way to even things out is to have a highly graduated income tax and a lot of means testing. I
would prefer the former, that is, a balanced economy that paid the fair compensation to the very people that actually use their hands and minds to
make all of our goods and services. Right now, the majority of people can't afford to buy the things they produce with their own hands and minds and
the top 1% is making more money than they can spend or consume...proof positive of an imbalance.
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MitchMan
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Well said Mexitron.
Wow, there are enlightened people in this forum. I know you are there. We just have to be more "vocal".
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Cisco
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| Quote: | Originally posted by MitchMan
| Quote: | Originally posted by Pescador
When the goat speaks about economic matters, it is certain that you are about to be enlightened in a socialistic way. I can only imagine what the
country he would design would look like. Let's see, China, Venezuela, Cuba, etc., and the list goes on. |
Socialism and Capitalism are both recognized economic philosophies, both have their own validity and shortcomings; there are truths and falsehoods and
strengths and weaknesses found in both. If you want to consider yourself knowledgeable enough to cast your opinions on either, it behooves you to
sufficiently understand their principles and both the weaknesses and strengths of each. Otherwise you will wallow in folly. Therefore, I appreciate
being �enlightened� when enlightenment is presented, and you should be too.
BTW, I don�t think there is any one person (certainly not any member of this forum) who could �design� any country, and that list of persons who
cannot goes on and on.
| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
Funny how some people think wealth comes from government... when it is just the opposite. People create wealth and government takes it away.
Capitalism creates the most opportunity and socialism has failed everywhere it has been tried.
Up with ALL Business (big and small) and down with Big Government! |
Please! More �talking points�? Everything you wrote was a pure talking point, that is, phrases that someone else wrote verbatim before you copied
them here. I have heard each and every one of them many, many times recited by many other people. If you would compose your own original thoughts
and share them with sufficient and adequate logic/support, that might constitute �enlightenment�.
Capitalistic systems have failed many times, and, it�s an ongoing experience. In fact, every time a business fails, that is a capitalistic failure.
Ever hear of the Great Depression, the Dot Com Bubble, the Great /Recession of 2007/8? A characteristic of capitalism is recurring boom and bust
cycles where many people are severely hurt financially. Also, there is the ever present lopsided and inequitable disparity of income and wealth that
is severely plaguing the world and this country at its worst. Disparity itself is one of the most significant factors that is hurting our market
based capitalistic systems around the world and particularly in this country right now.
Geesus man, open your eyes! A blind one-sided and errored Pollyanna perspective serves no one and certainly isn�t �enlightenment�.
The worst part of socialism is that it doesn�t benefit from the information embedded in markets and market prices (Hayek). One of socialisms failures
is that it has been too difficult to know how much of which commodities to produce or not produce and where to deliver it, let alone how much resource
to invest is the option level of product quality. Huge failure. HOWEVER, since our current technology of data bases, networking, internet and other
ubiquitous communication, the ability to gather info quickly and analyze it even quicker is making this defect less and less an issue.
Briefly stated, capitalism�s problems are many, the most obvious is that markets are not perfect;, almost never are, and our market based capitalism
relies greatly on its markets. Also, our markets have been subjected to the corrupting influence of excess greed and political manipulation.
Furthermore, the more unregulated and purely unfettered markets are, the more bad side effects (called by economists as �externalities�) that horribly
hurt society come about. FROM A PRACTICAL PERSPECTIVE, THE ONLY THING THAT CAN TAME EXTERNALITIES EFFECTIVELY IS PROPER REGULATION BY AN
�APPROPRIATELY SIZED� GOVERNMENT�WHATEVER SIZE THAT IS.
Now, DavidK, I you have any �original� ideas to cure everything, please let us know. And, please, no talking points. Just your own original logic
and info if you don� mind. |
http://www.globalresearch.ca/imperial-conquest-americas-long...
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BajaLuna
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DavidK, you don't seem to mention a lot of the reason why more people are on food stamps. I guess they are all just those lazy people, eh? What about
big Corporations shipping manufacturing jobs overseas which equals more people on food stamps. This is why we see record numbers today not to mention
because the economy tanked. The South where a lot of those manufacturing jobs used to be are the States with the most on food stamps. And those jobs
weren't all union jobs! I'm personally a victim of this corporate greed. Bye bye went my job overseas! and it wasn't a union job either. And you can
bet just like all the other Corporations do, they hide their money overseas yet reap the benefits of doing business in the USA. Something very wrong
with that picture!
Aww yes and what about corporate welfare?
Corporations not paying workers a living wage= more food stamps and subsidized healthcare. IE Walmart among MANY others.
But you don't seem to mention the Corporate welfare that we are all subsidizing via food stamps, healthcare, subsidies to those employees...umm the
fast food industry for one example, and big businesses everywhere! Are you ok with the corporate welfare that you pay into?
Corporate welfare starts by fixing the federal IRS tax code.
I don't have a problem with the food stamp program, yes there are too many on food stamps I totally agree with that, but I don't want to see a child
or anyone go hungry. I do have a problem with people milking welfare for a long time, it is only suppose to be for a leg up.
And what IS the solution to less food stamps, besides more jobs, and better paying jobs? One layer to the solution of food stamps is that more food
banks are needed. Donating to or volunteering at local food banks, is helping to be a part of the solution of hunger in this country! We need more
food banks! The number of people going to the food banks is through the roof! They cant keep up with the demand. People who are under-employed, and
the working poor, who don't make a living wage, OH and the elderly, it's not just the lazy, ya know. Perhaps take a step inside a food bank sometime
and listen to their stories, of those on food stamps and/or having to receive food from the food banks...and connect with the reality of hunger in
this country. I volunteer at the food bank and grow food for one in town, I see the reality of hunger and it's not a pretty picture. To most these
people are just a number and lumped into THOSE people, the us vs them mentality. When in fact they have a story of how they got to be where they are
and most are just in a difficult situation and just an FYI they are those who live in YOUR neighborhood too.
Mothers etc coming in there to get food, do you know that most I talk to receive on average 200 bucks a month for food stamps?, hence why they are at
the food banks...I don't know about you but I could barely feed my kids on 200 bucks a month. Should we let the kids starve? Yes, perhaps getting
better educated is one of the solutions, yes perhaps better paying jobs is another answer, yes perhaps fulltime work is one answer, yes perhaps
changing careers is important, yes perhaps more jobs in this country is what is needed, and perhaps stop giving rewards to those corporations who took
all the jobs overseas is one solution, and yes cleaning up the loop holes is another, and yes perhaps firing ALL the worthless Politicians (both
parties) is necessary....but in the meantime people are hungry and kids deserve to be fed.
Food banks rock! Be a part of the food stamp problem/solution instead of growling about it! Your karma will love you! If there were more food banks
and people like you and me donating food, perhaps the number on food stamps would go down!
I wonder since you gripe ALL the time about healthcare on BN if anyone in YOUR family has ever had to get free, or subsidized healthcare, or get a
grant from a hospital or anything like that because of a health issue/emergency? Perhaps if you had ever experienced that situation you'd be darn glad
there was some system in place so your loved one could get back to be healthy. Did they have to receive from the system, Is it ok for your loved one
but not for mine or your neighbor's?
where is the compassionate Conservatism?
failed ideologies is what got us into this predictament, several Administrations ago, IMHO!
Corporations are taking this country down the drain! Notice I didn't say the left or the right...because it is ALL of them! Including the most
liberal-owned Corporations too!
BTW I am very much awake!
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