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JDCanuck
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The alternative to subiidizing the NA EV manufacturers is watching the subsidized Asian manufacturers flood the market and once again leave NA wishing
we had done more. I don't see a good answer here if we want to stay competitive in manufacturing for export to global markets. I think we can all see
where the future of transportation is heading.
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Tioloco
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Quote: Originally posted by JDCanuck  | | The alternative to subiidizing the NA EV manufacturers is watching the subsidized Asian manufacturers flood the market and once again leave NA wishing
we had done more. I don't see a good answer here if we want to stay competitive in manufacturing for export to global markets. I think we can all see
where the future of transportation is heading. |
That future does not seem to be heading for electric. Lots of big players bailing on it.
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oxxo
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| Quote: Originally posted by SFandH | | Quote: Originally posted by JDCanuck | | Quote: Originally posted by mtgoat666 | | Quote: Originally posted by JDCanuck | These three models from Rivian may be what Baja needs for an affordable fully electric off-roader. R2 expected to be 45000 (10,000 cheaper than the
present BYD Shark hybrid), and a smaller yet R3 even cheaper, with an upgraded R3X rounding out their newer, lower priced lineup.
Heres the writeup from a few months ago.
Even the smallest cheapest model should handle the roads we typically see down here.
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What would you expect from a promotional press release from the parent company - any company? Yes, "on paper" they look promising, but how they will
perform "in the wild" is still unproven. The Tesla CyberTruk has even better specs than the BYD or Rivian, but is still unproven (despite what Tesla
says) and had a service center recall of 11,000 units last week. I am not ready to endorse any of them at this point.
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Is rivian still a viable business? I thought they disappeared. |
They were bankrupt until VW bailed them out last month. Something tells me VW would like to purchase the Rivian company.
| Quote: | | heir signature headlight design is so ugly, hope they drop it in new models. |
The front end design of the Rivian is very polarizing, along with Tesla's CyberTruk - you either love it or not. Both Ford and Chev. have more
traditional BEV pickup design, that hasn't changed in almost 100 years, than either Rivian or CyberTruk. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
| Quote: | | But if they don't make those models, someone should, they are the most practical off-road models out so far. |
I have some issues with the Rivian concept. eg. the CyberTruk has adjustable suspension height from the truck interior, the Rivian not. Rivian does
not have an extensive service center availability like Tesla has in the U.S. At this time, Rivian is not compatible with Supercharger connection. I
could go on. In my opinion, neither Rivian, BYD, or CyberTruk are ready for the back roads of Baja and may not be for another 3 years or more. I do
like the CyberTruk concept best of the 3, but it is best suited for traditional use in the US right now.
In the meantime, Toyota and their off-road BEV concept is years away, if ever. I am not sure that Toyota is a viable company for the future. They
had a golden opportunity to make the new Prius a BEV (I absolutely love the egg shaped design) but they chickened out and made it a plug-in hybrid.
That one car would have sold millions of units around the world and saved the company, and they blew it!
| Quote: | "Rivian Loses $38,000 Per Vehicle Delivered In Q1."
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True, They were going to file for bankruptcy until VW came along. |
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oxxo
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True....and you know who the BIGGEST recipient of corporate govt. subsidies is, by far? THE OIL INDUSTRY!!! Yes, the US BEV movement and the oil
industry will ALL go bankrupt without govt. subsidies. There is one exception, that idiot Elon Musk and Tesla and his related businesses - Solar
City, Space X, etc. - have never taken or needed govt. subsidies (Elon is a Libertarian in favor of less govt. interference as long as it reduces HIS
taxes to nothing). So, where does that leave us? Do you want to subsidize, with YOUR taxes, companies that poison our air or companies that clean
our air?
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oxxo
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Not True! ALL the big players (except Toyota) are jumping in (even a niche company like Ferrari)! Yes there are a few poorly financed start-ups that
can't keep up, but the future definitely belongs to BEVs and Californico is leading the way and hopefully Mexico and their new Madame Presidente
appears to be following suit.
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Tioloco
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| Quote: Originally posted by oxxo |
Not True! ALL the big players (except Toyota) are jumping in (even a niche company like Ferrari)! Yes there are a few poorly financed start-ups that
can't keep up, but the future definitely belongs to BEVs and Californico is leading the way and hopefully Mexico and their new Madame Presidente
appears to be following suit. |
They are "jumping in" to cash in on subsidies. Just like the entire solar industry is. But we have seen that is not sustainable financially in the
long term.
California is leading the way? Seems toward bankruptcy and financial insolvency.
As for "madame presidente", she has a cartel violence problem that is so bad now that she may as well put her scientist hat in the closet. She has WAY
bigger fish to fry than to worry if the propane stove on the neighborhood hot dog stands are putting out too much carbon poisoning.
But if you would like, we can keep pretending that gas powered cars are the big problem.
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JDCanuck
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I really don't think the average person in Baja commuting to and from the city down roads where 4X4''s are needed at the lowest possible cost is
ready to pop for a Cybertruck, but maybe I'm wrong. 30,000 to 45,000 new(half that 3 yrs old with 45,000 miles) is the sweet spot for most of us for a
durable vehicle that gets us off the gas and maintenance inflationary wheel. A lot of those commuters in Baja will already be off-grid and have solar
power, so expanding their system to accommodate an EV won't be a big additional challenge. The biggest complaint I had when trying to get workers out
to our place was the ever increasing cost of gas followed by the cost of maintaining their trucks, most of which were either well used and battered
Toyotas or Hilux.
[Edited on 6-28-2024 by JDCanuck]
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JDCanuck
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Tioloco: Here is the present trend in Canada, the land of ice and snow. The number intending to buy some type of EV for their next vehicle has risen
above 50% and rises even more when they learn of recent advances in technology. Subsidies(almost equal to added Taxes and dealer fees) here have
declined from where they used to be, but the average person is still held back mainly by cost....40,000 CAD (30,000 USD) is the average they have
budgeted to spend for their next vehicle, net of fees, taxes and subsidies.
https://ca.finance.yahoo.com/news/half-of-canadians-plan-to-...
[Edited on 6-28-2024 by JDCanuck]
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oxxo
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| Quote: Originally posted by JDCanuck | | I really don't think the average person in Baja commuting to and from the city down roads where 4X4''s are needed at the lowest possible cost is
ready to pop for a Cybertruck, but maybe I'm wrong. 30,000 to 45,000 new(half that 3 yrs old with 45,000 miles) is the sweet spot for most of us for a
durable vehicle that gets us off the gas and maintenance inflationary wheel. |
Elon Musk has ALWAYS released the most expensive model in a series FIRST to generate cash to support the less expensive, which come later. Currently,
the CyberTruk is around USD 100K, and he has plenty of takers. If you wait for a year or two, you will be able to purchase a CyberTruk less expensive
for around USD 50K. BTW, the AVERAGE cost of a pickup in the US (both domestic and foreign) is around USD 60K, at this time. Yes, you will be able
to purchase an unproven BYD for potentially less (Rivian, no, the cost will be way above your "sweet spot"). You will get what you pay for.
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oxxo
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| Quote: Originally posted by JDCanuck | | but the average person is still held back mainly by cost....40,000 CAD (30,000 USD) is the average they have budgeted to spend for their next vehicle,
net of fees, taxes and subsidies. |
You will be hard pressed to find a good horse and buggy for USD 30K. Canuckistanis need a dose of reality!
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JDCanuck
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Yes, those IC trucks have gotten extra expensive and the F-150 Lightning XLT sells for less than the F-150 lightning at present. Its no wonder the NA
manufacturers fought EV's for so long since they are their huge profit makers, especially in Canada where you have to have a truck or Jeep whether you
ever take it off pavement or not. (we don't)
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JDCanuck
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They are very close at present. Hyundai and Kia are just barely above that at present Longer range 2024 Leaf with larger 62 kwh battery pack is a bit
below and you save sales tax and might still get a slight rebate. Most of those surveyed were unaware of the rebates until told.
[Edited on 6-28-2024 by JDCanuck]
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JDCanuck
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"I am one of the many who are "unaware" WHERE can you save on sales tax AND get a slight rebate. Please clue me in!"
Canada, where they just replaced the provincial rebate of 6000 with a sales tax reduction new or used. Canadian federal rebate still applies to some
new Teslas that are under 65000CAD.
Just cancelling the sales tax on any EV makes great sense to me rather than rebates, especially in Mexico. Would amount to a 16% rebate across the
board to eliminate your gasoline demand. Compare this to a system where they advertise for 65,000, add the dealer fees and sales taxes of 9500-10000,
then give you a 6,000 government rebate. under certain conditions.
[Edited on 6-28-2024 by JDCanuck]
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oxxo
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| Quote: Originally posted by JDCanuck |
Canada, where they just replaced the provincial rebate of 6000 with a sales tax reduction new or used. Canadian federal rebate still applies to some
new Teslas that are under 65000CAD. |
My understanding is you have to be a Canadian citizen to qualify. Otherwise, some entrepreneur would be buying those cars by the truckload for
"resale" as new in the US.
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JDCanuck
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| Quote: Originally posted by oxxo | | Quote: Originally posted by JDCanuck |
Canada, where they just replaced the provincial rebate of 6000 with a sales tax reduction new or used. Canadian federal rebate still applies to some
new Teslas that are under 65000CAD. |
My understanding is you have to be a Canadian citizen to qualify. Otherwise, some entrepreneur would be buying those cars by the truckload for
"resale" as new in the US. |
Well, yes, but aren't California residents still allowed the up to 12,500 rebate? This was the case when the F-150 Lightning Pro was introduced at
under 40,000. It blew out so fast, the dealers added significant above MSRP pricing to make a bigger profit off them. Then Ford followed though and
raised the MSRP as well. Even with those price increases Ford is losing 43,000 per unit on their entire E-fleet. Of course all the extensive R &
D is included in those expenses, same as Rivian. It isn't cheap to build all those new multi billion Manufacturing and/or retool plants either.
[Edited on 6-28-2024 by JDCanuck]
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JDCanuck
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Rivian has 9 billion left in cash, 2/3 that amount in total debt after building their battery and manufacturing in Illinois and including R and D
expenses to date. I didn't see them anywhere near bankruptcy with 82% Y/Y revenue growth. They did tho have to delay their newest plant in Georgia,
until revenue caught up with costs.
GM and Chrysler were in far worse shape when the taxpayers were required to bail them out a few years back and if I remember right, GM actually did go
bankrupt.
[Edited on 6-28-2024 by JDCanuck]
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JDCanuck
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So in essence, if you could afford a Tesla or an F-150 to begin with....you would receive up to 15,000 back at that time after filing taxes and
assuming you had not used all your tax credits to that point. I can see why so many wealthier people would immediately jump on that. In Canada,
there's the Provincial tax in BC (7%) and the Federal rebate of 5,000 (but only in certain circumstances?) to offset the federal taxes, dealer
delivery and documentation and immediately needed necessary options like a home charging cord or charger. I checked the price on a longer range new
Tesla model 3 and it was net above 60,000 here which explains why the resale prices are so high compared to California.
I would guess this presents an opportunity for mechanically competent people in Baja to run up to Southern California, and get a very cheap used EV as
long as the roads they normally traveled were decently smooth.
[Edited on 6-29-2024 by JDCanuck]
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oxxo
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| Quote: Originally posted by JDCanuck | | So in essence, if you could afford a Tesla or an F-150 to begin with....you would receive up to 15,000 back at that time after filing taxes and
assuming you had not used all your tax credits to that point. |
No! The Federal tax credit of $7500 MAXIMUM is per car, not per person listed on the tax return. The MAXIMUM is $7500 tax credit per car purchased
in that tax year purchased. Now if you purchased a second, qualifing car in a different year, you would be eligible for a $7,500 Tax Credit for that
subsequent year.....provided that the program is not repealed in the US Legislature by the Republicans. Californico no longer offers a rebate for
BEV purchase (you snooze, you lose) but some local entities in Californico, who are particularly impacted by air quality, offer a $500 REBATE for a
BEV (I do not live in one of those entities). Anyone who can afford a USD 40K+ Tesla in Californico is not terribly concerned about that provision of
a MAXIMUM $7,500 credit because we like breathing clean air, regardless and wages are very high here. The Tesla model 3/Y is so good, and the
alternative for ICE is so expensive and the breakeven point is about 3 years, it is a no brainer to go BEV, despite what some of the less informed on
BN might say!
[Edited on 6-29-2024 by oxxo]
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Ateo
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I got 2 $7500 credits!!!! Sorry US taxpayers!
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oxxo
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GREAT, thank you for participating in reducing greenhouse gases!
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