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oxxo
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
The 1% already pay almost 40% of the taxes and nearly 50% of Americans pay 0 taxes. |
 In California, everyone, regardless of income, pays an approximately 8%
State sales tax on most items. This is an example of a regressive tax (like a flat tax rate).
As far as Federal income tax, I would rather pay 15% tax on a million dollar income, rather than 0% on a $15,000 income. This is an example of a
progressive tax.
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Alan
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One of my favorites quotes that I believe is attributed to Margret Thatcher is ...
"The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money"
In Memory of E-57
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David K
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Alan
One of my favorites quotes that I believe is attributed to Margret Thatcher is ...
"The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money" |
Bravo!
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MitchMan
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| Quote: | TW
So why does she care who bought the government? |
TW, are you hereby agreeing that government has been “bought”? Because, if you are, then you are in substantial agreement with her.
| Quote: | TW
Lobbyist have been around forever and special interest groups have been around forever. |
The magnitude of
the lobbying industry has grown exponentially by 1,000s and 1,000s of percentage points since Reagan’s presidential election primarily due to and by
right wing zealot leadership from the likes of Jack Abramoff, Ralph Reed, Grover Norquist and Karl Rove, et al. While lobbyists and special interest
groups have been around for quite some time, nothing in the proportions fostered by the right wing since 1980 and Reagan’s election.
| Quote: | TW
Do you libs want to stop the Sierra Club from lobbying congress? Is Al Gore and his group lobbying congress? Is President Clinton doing it? They all
are, nothing new. The local farmers lobby their congressperson to get more water for their crops should that be outlawed? Sounds to me like you only
want to stop the lobbying that you don't want. |
The lady in the wheel chair’s primary message is that she is not against the wealthy, she just doesn’t like the circumstance of their having “bought”
the government. She is making no distinctions between the purchasers being libs or pubs (pronounced “pyooobz” as in “pubes”).
You, TW, YOU are.
This is just another example of “confused” and warped thinking, pi$$ poor logic, and an another brazen attempt to base a wrong conclusion on a trumped
up false/non-existent premise. Ever heard of the "Strawman" faulty argument, TW?
TW, you are starting to set a pattern for yourself.
[Edited on 11-3-2011 by MitchMan]
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TMW
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Iflyfish
Corporations now have unlimited right to contribute to politicians and to form "shadow" PACs and run campaigns outside of reporting laws. The
difference now is that the place is run by those folks. Sierra Club, Kock Brothers, they all pay own Congressmen and women. Now the more money, the
more you own these guys.
Iflyfish |
Todays paper "Pro-Obama group begins 3rd anti-Romney ad campaign". A PAC that backs President Obama's re-election is starting a social media
advertising blitz against Romney one year before before the election. Priorities USA Action, a so-called super committee that takes unlimited donation
checks and is run by former Obama aids, is buying the ads on Facebook, Google and Googles You Tube.
So much for just the corporations money. I smell George Soros here.
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TMW
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Everybody can lobby government officials and the people doing it have their own agenda. BajaGringo has a good point "Yes, I want ALL lobbying stopped
where money/goods/services/favors are given to our elected representatives." But I believe there are laws on the book about what an elected official
can take and some have been censored, tried and convicted in such cases. Lobbyist have also been convicted. I'm sorry but I think lobbying a
government official is as American as Apple Pie. A government official must make up his or her mind based on all sides of an issue and lobbyist
provide both sides. I think the libs on here think that only the conservative lobbyist are bad but the Lib lobbyist are good. I don't think either
side is good or bad but have a viewpoint that the decision maker should hear. I also don't think they should accept gifts be it money or otherwise for
doing their job, although a free ticket to the Superbowl could be OK.
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BajaGringo
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| Quote: | Originally posted by TW
I'm sorry but I think lobbying a government official is as American as Apple Pie. A government official must make up his or her mind based on all
sides of an issue and lobbyist provide both sides. I think the libs on here think that only the conservative lobbyist are bad but the Lib lobbyist are
good. I don't think either side is good or bad but have a viewpoint that the decision maker should hear. I also don't think they should accept gifts
be it money or otherwise for doing their job, although a free ticket to the Superbowl could be OK. |
You and I are in basic agreement then.
I don't care if somebody wants to lobby their elected representative - I just think it is morally wrong (should be legally) to let said representative
allow "more" access to some lobbyists solely based on the size of their campaign contribution or perk/gift/money/etc.
That is what is happening today and why I believe that ALL of our elected representatives (right AND left) are sold out to the highest bidder...
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Mengano
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| Quote: | Originally posted by oxxo
In California, everyone, regardless of income, pays an approximately 8% State sales tax on most items. This is an example of a regressive tax (like
a flat tax rate). |
Where you live in Baja it is an 11% sales tax and even more regressive because a far wider range of goods and services are taxed than in California.
They even charge sales taxes on home rents.
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MitchMan
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OK, now we are getting somewhere.
I think that the part of the direct lobbying efforts that sway votes and compliance of congressmen and other government officials that is due to
campaign contributions, promise of future lucrative lobbying jobs (revolving door), and perqs is bad and a ruinous thing to the country and to the
functioning of a true democracy. It appears that we are all in agreement on that.
For the record, as a Liberal, I do not approve of any such lobbying by either libs or pubs (pronounced "pyoobz"). It is just plain wrong, no matter
who does it, period! And, giving corporations recognition as a person with regard to campaign contributions is just as wrong.
While, conceptually, lobbying a government official may be as American as Apple Pie, the current level of lobbying goes way,way beyond that and has
reached an excessive level; its affect has now become corruptive and corrosive to a point where its result is not a government reflecting the will of
the people, but instead the will of the special interests.
I think it is silly to spend energy asserting that the opposing political persuasion to you own political persuasion is a hypocrit because they
publicly pronouce their opposition to lobbying per se while secretly approving of their own friendly lobbying. Both sides are guilty of that.
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mtgoat666
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| Quote: | Originally posted by TW
I also don't think they should accept gifts be it money or otherwise for doing their job, although a free ticket to the Superbowl could be OK.
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a superbowl trip for elected official and family is $10K+ gift.
regular govt employees can't accept such, so why should elected official?
there is not a single politician in the US that is not owned by his campaign donors.
the only solution is to ban all campaign donations over $200, limit gifts in office to total of $40/month, ban on lobbying for first 5 years out of
office, elimination of defined benefit pensions (perhaps replaced with defined contribution plans). the job of a politician should be short term (not
a career), so they really should not need pension plan at all.
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mtgoat666
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mtgoat666
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MitchMan
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You tell 'em, goat.
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tripledigitken
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I don't see the slot for anarchists? You know, the ones the police are monitoring in Oakland.
You predicting revolution, must be just thrilled with the events from Oakland last night. Surprised you aren't cackling today.
| Quote: | Originally posted by mtgoat666
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MitchMan
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| Quote: | David K
Is she addressing the labor unions??? |
I don’t know if she is addressing labor unions. Do you know, David K? Because if you do, please cite your sources of information as to what is
exactly in her mind. Or, are you just guessing… again… still?
| Quote: | David K
The 1% already pay almost 40% of the taxes and nearly 50% of Americans pay 0 taxes. |
The top 1% own 40% of the nation’s wealth while the bottom 50% you speak of own less than 4% of the wealth. The amount of money the top 1% have left
over after they pay that 40% of the taxes you mention is well over $923,000 and the bottom 50% have less than $15,000. Put that in your greedy right
wing pipe and smoke it. Sorry, David K, based on these facts, really hard for me to feel pitty for the top 1% and animosity toward the bottom 50% as
you apparently do. Wow, the right wing mindset as represented by David K here, what a piece of work!
Here is some more reality for you. The top 1% own over $15,000,000 per capita wealth. The bottom 40% own only $2,400 per captia!
| Quote: | David K
Are these people without any brains or are they following the communist method where if you tell a lie enough times, it becomes the truth?
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What a coincidence, I was just thinking that about your people.
| Quote: | David K
Right, it is class warfair plain and simple... An Obama method to try and gain votes and win sympathy from the media. . |
Again, it is the right wing exclusively who cries “Class Warfare”, not the left. The right wing is using that cry as a cheap
dishonest inflammatory ruse to excite their simple minded hoards. Now who is using “tell a lie enough times, it becomes the truth”?
For sure, that is something that you keep doing.
| Quote: | David K
The 1% is not only where nearly 40% of the tax revenue comes from, but also where jobs and products or services we need and use come from... Yah, lets
punish them more... ? Good Grief... |
Good Grief! How is leaving a 1% taxpayer with over $923,000 after tax
a punishment? Oh, poor babies. This economy and the particularly the tax rates are just killing them off, one by one. Oh my God, somebody, please
help them before it's too late. We don't want David K to commit suicide over his grief and pity over the plight and destitution of the top 1%, do we?
Ah, finally, somebody brought this one up.
Guess what, genius, the top 1% is NOT where jobs and products and services come from. Jobs (that produce products and services) come from the
ECONOMY. That’s right, the ECONOMY as a whole. Remember, no economy, then no jobs, hence no products and services. BTW, a job is defined as a
“filled job”, not an unfilled job opportunity.
There are 5 things that have to exist before any job can come into meaningful existence.
Adequate and sufficient and existent:
1) market for the product
2) qualified labor pool
3) infrastructure
4) government/governance
5) entrepreneur to provide business management and production resources
You take anyone of the five elements away and you have NO JOB nor creation of a JOB. Just as Elizabeth Warren said, jobs are not created by the
wealthy or by the entrepreneur in a vacuum. If there is no market or people to buy the product, entrepreneurs will not organize a business to produce
that product. If there is no qualified labor pool available to hire, then no “filled job” can possibly occur. If there are no roads, traffic lights,
utilities, drainage and water treatment, maintenance, etc., etc., etc., in short, no infrastructure, no business can be conducted. If there is no
government to provide governance such as national security, fire and police protection and law enforcement, judicial system, management of
infrastructure, interstate jurisdiction, coordination, international representation, watchdog services over economic externalities such as consumer
protection, waste disposal, building codes, safety standards, etc., etc., etc., no business would or could sustain existence.
Lastly, I say LASTLY because 1 thru 4 have to exist in good shape first, then and only then can the entrepreneur enter the stage to take advantage of
the existing resources of 1 thru 4 and then put to work his production resources and management. No David K, neither the entrepreneur nor the 1%
create jobs, they are just part of 1 of 5 cogs of a wheel that participate together to form an economy and it is only the economy with all five
components in place before any job can be created.
It is the right wing that perpetuates the lie that the rich are the job creators by using “… the communist method where if you tell a lie enough
times, it becomes the truth”.
| Quote: | David K
We need business to grow the economy. |
The vast majority of economists on both sides of the aisle agree and
assert that the problem with business right now is lack of demand. Based on that reality, the problem is the market, not business creation. Have you
noticed the vacancies in shopping centers? Why did those consumer businesses go away? Anybody who has any economic sense at all can see that those
businesses went away because people, consumers stopped buying their goods and services. That is what most all economists have been saying. I don’t
know if you have noticed, but people don’t have any money since losing their jobs, being underemployed, and unable to borrow on the home equity while
food, gasoline, electricity, healthcare, and education costs continue to climb. There isn’t enough money in the pockets of the working class (bottom
97%) to sustain the market demand. But, have you heard, the wealthy are getting wealthier? Ooooo, sounds like a weird economy that keeps rewarding
the top 1% while the rest of America keeps losing ground. You know, the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy are still in effect and have been in effect
since the tax cut. Well, because of the Bush tax cuts and runaway deregulation, the top 1% keep getting wealthier, but, David K, where are the jobs
that they were supposed to create over the last 3 years, heck, during the Bush era? Where are they, they’ve got unpaid tax money, have been getting
it all along. Where are the jobs?
| Quote: | | David K A LOT of people paying a little tax gives the treasure MUCH MORE money than a few corporations paying a ton of tax!!!
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Well, David K, do you want to tax the bottom 50% ? I told you that they only have $15,000 per year left
after paying what little tax that they do pay while the 1% have $923,000 after paying that “ton of tax” you talk about. How much more do you want
from each of the bottom 50%? What you don’t understand about the economics is mind boggling and reflects a breathtaking ignorance. Each of the 1%
people are using the economy much more than the bottom 50% are individually and the 1% are getting economically rewarded inordinately while the
working class is getting under rewarded. That is a function of a dysfunctional economic structure. Not getting the proper reward is bad enough, but
then to go after the bottom 50% or even after the bottom 95% for more tax dollars is economic injustice and morally unconscionable; but the right
wingers would love to do it, even alot of those dum ones in the bottom 97%.
[Edited on 11-3-2011 by MitchMan]
[Edited on 11-3-2011 by MitchMan]
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desertcpl
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GOP has done it again
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Barry A.
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Some reading material for MitchMan.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/06/opinion/06bartlett.html
Your Welcome, Mitch.
Barry
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mtgoat666
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| Quote: | Originally posted by MitchMan
| Quote: | David K
Right, it is class warfair plain and simple... An Obama method to try and gain votes and win sympathy from the media |
Again, it is the right wing exclusively who cries “Class Warfare”, not the left. The right wing is using that cry as a cheap dishonest inflammatory
ruse to excite their simple minded hoards. Now who is using “tell a lie enough times, it becomes the truth”?
For sure, that is something that you keep doing.
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dk: the class warfare started way back in last century when "trickle down" tax cuts started. it is about time that the poor and middle class fight
back against the dirty actions of republican politicians doing the biding of the 1%.. the gop illegally declared war several decades ago!
[Edited on 11-3-2011 by mtgoat666]
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mtgoat666
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when the 1% have stolen the government from the 99%, perhaps class warfare is only solution.
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MitchMan
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| Quote: | Cypress
Raising the taxes of 1% of the US population is the remedy for our economic ills? When that doesn't fix the problem, and it won't, what next? You got
it! Raise taxes more. These guys are "one trick ponies". |
Raising taxes on the 1% will not remedy all the economic ills, but it's a start and it is only a partial remedy. However, it is definitely the right
moral and correct economic thing to do.
There are many more things that need to be done to fix the economy. This thread has many posts pinpointing that specific aspect. However, your view
as represented in the quote herein reflects your myopia and narrow take on things. I personally haven't heard anyone say that raising taxes on the 1%
is the fix all remedy. Certainly not any economists.
I think that you are caught up the adversarialness of the political discussion and that you are babboting something you heard someone else say. One
question. Do you listen to Rush Limbaugh? Sounds like something he would say. Or did you come up with it on your own in a desperate effort to
simplify things for yourself?
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