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David K
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Quote: Originally posted by bajacamper  | | Science is not projections, consensus or computer models 100 years out that will of course be wrong. I do believe in climate change though, it's
called weather. Will I have any effect on some of your opinions? Hell no. DK is correct however but you can flame away at me for a while and give
him a break. |
Thank you... However, it doesn't matter who is right or wrong... it does matter that people use their eyes and brains.
How THIS current 'change' can be blamed on Americans (or all modern living people) when the HUNDREDS of previous changes HAPPENED without man being
here, just boggles the mind.
Obviously, "they" can extract money and power through fear of something we cannot change, and I just think that is sad if you all let them.
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rts551
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For a good article about "deniers" take a look at the National Geographic for March 2015.
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bajacamper
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Aw it's a nice day, I'm going out and enjoy it.
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Cliffy
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Still no one has addressed my question as to why man's development on the earth is somehow considered "abnormal" to the natural evolutionary process
of the planet?
Projections of doom and gloom by using short term monitoring of the atmospheric process only leads to massive mistakes in the projections (as has been
demonstrated). And, considering the time of evolution on the earth (mas o menos 5 BILLION years) we have been monitoring for only a blink of an eye).
I'm all for living as clean as is reasonable, not unjustifiably polluting but none the less, mankind does have to move on.
If it's so important to impose high tariffs on the "advanced" countries of the world to carry the lion's share of "cleaning up the environment" then
the rest of the world can sign on at the same time. To allow large polluters a free pass is just wrong.
No matter what we do now, mankind will always have to adapt and, man kind will die out on this planet sometime in the future whether by its own hand
or the sun exploding. One way or another it will happen but that is a long long way off.
But to scream that "the sky is falling" in the short term is just hysteria brought about by grants and subsidies from the governments. When the system
of grants ( ie making a living) is self perpetuating one has to look at the process and results carefully to "follow the money" and no one has done
that yet.
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Terry28
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Well kids, The really cool thing about science is that it's true even if you don't believe it!!!!!!!~:
Mexico!! Where two can live as cheaply as one.....but it costs twice as much.....
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vgabndo
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| Quote: Originally posted by redhilltown | Let's face it. When DK and others complain about science and scientists they are railing against government workers. Unions. People sucking on the
government teat to get all they can for their greedy families. And I guarantee you every single one of these complaining folks has family members
somewhere doing it...or they themselves are on the teat and fighting against it with their head held high and their hands out... These so called
"scientists" just see a big nest egg...a golden ring to latch onto to stay employed. Since they have no Christian morals, they simply spread fear
and false information to keep their jobs.
Weather has always been weather. Gosh, what a brilliant concept.
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Your comments are intended as some kind of joke right? The mindless myths of Iron Age guys with no last names are now more important than the most
carefully vetted facts assembled by hundreds of years of the most intelligent people ever to evolve? Just keep in mind Redhilltown that in a failing
nation "under God" where so many more people are moral Christians than is normally the case in other developed nations, it is necessary for CIVIL law
to lock behind bars a greater percentage of the "god fearing" than in any nation on earth. If the difference between moral behavior and barbarianism
is your Christian myth, it is clearly not working. And remember, just prior to WWII 95% of the German population self-identified as Christian and both
their pledges of allegiance invoked the Christian god. You aren't allowed to make a positive connection between "morality" and Christianity. The
history of Christian behavior does not support you. Oh, and by the way, only among the slow and halt is the question of human caused climate change
even raised. Have I guessed correctly that you also believe that the cosmos is less than 10,000 years old??? There is a common connection in
"thinking".
Undoubtedly, there are people who cannot afford to give the anchor of sanity even the slightest tug. Sam Harris
"The situation is far too dire for pessimism."
Bill Kauth
Carl Sagan said, "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself."
PEACE, LOVE AND FISH TACOS
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Cliffy
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Why do all the flag bearers avoid my questions?
Why is mankind not considered a natural evolutionary process of the planet Earth?
If it's so important to have strict emissions rules for mankind's sake, why are so many countries (some are the largest contributors to world wide
pollution, far greater than the USA in some respects), given a free pass to not join in the effort?
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Mexitron
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Mankind is of course part of the natural system though I'd say we have a little more awareness and responsibility to not trash everything. Our impact
has been quite large in certain areas---look at the amount of plant species which have been brought into the United States. Arundo donax, Tamarix,
Pampas Grass to name a few have taken over some ecosystems in a big way. California's grasslands used to be covered in perennial bunchgrasses, but
now most of those original grasslands have been invaded by European annual grasses adapted to cattle foraging (the bunchgrasses had evolved with deer,
elk and bison---yes there were bison in CA long ago--- who nibble rather than eat a grass to the ground). Its nothing that nature can't re-evolve out
of over eons but I don't think that gives us the green flag to not care.
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motoged
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| Quote: Originally posted by vgabndo | | Quote: Originally posted by redhilltown | Let's face it. When DK and others complain about science and scientists they are railing against government workers. Unions. People sucking on the
government teat to get all they can for their greedy families. And I guarantee you every single one of these complaining folks has family members
somewhere doing it...or they themselves are on the teat and fighting against it with their head held high and their hands out... These so called
"scientists" just see a big nest egg...a golden ring to latch onto to stay employed. Since they have no Christian morals, they simply spread fear
and false information to keep their jobs.
Weather has always been weather. Gosh, what a brilliant concept.
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Your comments are intended as some kind of joke right? |
I was assuming Red's comments were sarcastic.....if not, there is not much to say in response. 
I was hoping the thread might generate some useful discussion on how folks are managing changes to the issue of drought rather than spin wheels in
some sandy rut of opinions that really goes nowhere except in fruitless circles....even with lower air pressure.
Cancer could be considered a "natural process"....as is any hi-tech space exploration, as technology has been developed more intricately by those of
us with opposing thumbs than by other species (although other species use tools to accomplish some tasks as well).
Yes folks will remain on the planet for a while....but the conditions of that existence are the issue here.....not whether "it's happening" or not.
I maintain that our species is a virus of sorts (a natural phenomenon) that is not contributing too many benefits to its host....the planet.
Not many comments are being offered regarding adaptive responses.....just the same ol' caca....really a shame, folks
Don't believe everything you think....
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wessongroup
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Science is not about "right" and "wrong" ... 
"Science (from Latin scientia, meaning "knowledge"[2]) is a systematic enterprise that builds and organizes knowledge in the form of testable
explanations and predictions about the universe.[nb 1]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science
Right and wrong ... comes later and is introduce by the human species ... Not science
And good luck on "adaptive responses" from the human species ... we haven't a good track record on making sound decisions on how to "fit" into the
"environment" without impacting same, in a negative manner ... there are examples
Anyone recall "Zero Population Growth" ... 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero_population_growth
That one has been around since 1693 ... how's that one working out
[Edited on 4-11-2015 by wessongroup]
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carlosg
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...could it be... just thinking out loud... that in some way the drought is "man made' due to the use and abuse of the natural resources? before ALL
of us were here in this part of the world (or in the world at all) there was water running where we now drive? It seems like with the growth of the
population and the absurd usage of water, water resources have dwindled over the years, here in SD the poor folks in Rancho Santa Fe are going to
have to trade their lush landscapes emulating the tropics to have more endemic scenery in their front and backyards... these people "just" use a
little less than 600 gallons of water per day per person...
http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2015/apr/11/rancho-santa-fe-d...
...and if the golf courts here in SD are added
http://www.golfsandiegocounty.com/Map.tpl
..now we start to see part of the problem, the other is just how all of us add into the equation, how we use or abuse the available water from start
of day thru the end of it in our daily lives; how the city cares for the lush environment that it tries to portray -stage- inside our city: just walk
away from it and we're remembered that we live in semi-desertic environment... for some reason just across the border (Baja) the problem doesn't seem
to be so alarming, but also you don't see the lush and greenery all over the place... and just like a dog shakes off dust from its back it seems
mother nature is telling us something as well, also just like in life: earth has it own cycles and we just happen to be in the middle of one of
them... así que vive la vida intensamente..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d02Oqvl0P6o
...Dios está en ella...
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Cliffy
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carlosg brings up a very good point!
The earth does not have a fresh water shortage, only a use and distribution problem. I gave up lush green valleys in my yard 18 years ago. I haven't
owned a lawnmower in almost 20 years. Why- as a famous comedian once said in a rather loud voice- "BECAUSE YOU LIVE IN THE DESERT!
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Skipjack Joe
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| Quote: Originally posted by Cliffy | Why do all the flag bearers avoid my questions?
Why is mankind not considered a natural evolutionary process of the planet Earth?
If it's so important to have strict emissions rules for mankind's sake, why are so many countries (some are the largest contributors to world wide
pollution, far greater than the USA in some respects), given a free pass to not join in the effort? |
Because will power has never been the method of evolution. Death has.
Ever wonder why death even exists. Why does one animal live for 12 years and we live for 80? Death is why mankind exists. Death is what lets us mix
the gene pool and come up with descendants that can cope with problems that we are not equipped with. Death is an important part of life. We've been
created not to live the longest life individually but the longest life of mankind.
You can take this further. An older person is set in his ways and less capable with dealing with a changing world than a young man. Less value comes
from aged people.
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motoged
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| Quote: Originally posted by Skipjack Joe | .....
Because will power has never been the method of evolution. Death has.
Ever wonder why death even exists. Why does one animal live for 12 years and we live for 80? Death is why mankind exists. Death is what lets us mix
the gene pool and come up with descendants that can cope with problems that we are not equipped with. Death is an important part of life. We've been
created not to live the longest life individually but the longest life of mankind.
You can take this further. An older person is set in his ways and less capable with dealing with a changing world than a young man. Less value comes
from aged people. |
I don't see it that way.....
1) Adaptation is the method of evolution....death is the relative end of a life cycle....fertilization of a seed/egg, etc. is the joining of two
genetic memory banks...that "evolve" into the progeny....this mixture of genetic soup creates an adaptive organism....if it doesn't adapt so well , it
will likely not reproduce....and perhaps that is where death (in an indirect way) contributes to evolving by that organism not reproducing;
2) I don't think that man 's existence has the sole purpose of dying....dying is just a stage of the life-death cycle (biological organisms are
designed to reproduce, eat, and die....but not necessarily in that order ). Death doesn't allow us to combine gene pools....living organisms most often are required to produce and somehow mix the two contributing gene
pools.....that doesn't happen when dead organisms bump in the night. Perhaps decaying matter ( relatively dead) feeds the fertilized egg/cell,
etc.....but it is a meal plan most often, rather than a progenitor;
3) Less value from aged people? Wow !!!! Wisdom and experience usually
trumps impulsivity and inexperience. Old coots can think outside of the box....because at least they recognize they are in a box. Being old doesn't
necessarily mean that folks are set in ALL their ways.....but it is a risk....of non-adaptation.
I would say that birth, more than death, creates more opportunity to evolve....the organism's life is ahead of itself....and more adaptive opportunity
that the old fart set in his/her ways.
What do the rest of you old boots think? 
Don't believe everything you think....
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wessongroup
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Have to agree with age comes wisdom ... in most cases 
Defining the purpose of "life cycles" within the context of evolution ... has little long term meaning IMHO
Defining life cycles is useful in planning and/or discovery as they relate to evolution ... anything else is human desire of wants not needs
Life cycles are just that ... life cycles and all contribute to OUR environment on this planet and perhaps the Universe
But, it would appear that certain "life cycles" have more impact on the "environment" than others ... at this time
Oh, on topic ... Appears that everyone drinking "bottle" water may be a factor ...
A Lot Of Bottled Water Comes From Drought-Stricken California
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/04/10/bottled-water-droug...
Interesting thread ...
[Edited on 4-12-2015 by wessongroup]
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Skipjack Joe
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It's not death that saves mankind. It's change. And for change to occur there needs to be a life/death process. A man who lives 400 years is less
valuable than 5 who have lived 80 years. As measured for humanity.
And species lifespans are most definitely controlled by evolution. You can look that up.
There is definitely value to old age wisdom but not that many are needed.
My point is that we do not live to our old age because our cells break down and can't fight invaders. We could have been designed otherwise. But this
is the best design for mankind. That rate of change has worked best.
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Mexitron
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Perhaps in the past that's true Skipjack, though we will likely be seeing centennials becoming commonplace soon enough. Another hundred years of
genetic and tissue research and we'll likely be going far longer than that. Mankind will be evolving more to our whims rather than nature's and
population genetic's determinations. Unless of course that's a dead-end in itself (creating a population divorced from any kind of survival-based
genetics). Brave new world.
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Skipjack Joe
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Let's look at the global warming logjam and DavidK. Imagine having that kind of rigidity for 400 years. And this is not meant to be a personal attack.
By having a reasonable turnover we have a chance to move on.
Then you say what's the advantage of an Einstein not living 400 years. Virtually all of our geniuses have done all of their great work by 30,
sometimes 40. It's true of scientists, mathematicians, artists, and photographers. The productive period is about 20 years for humans. After that our
value goes down.
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Cliffy
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WHOA! Boy where did this drift come from after my commentary on evolutionary process of the planet Earth?
It's my contention that man is just another evolutionary process being "controlled" by the Earth's long history and it's uncontrollable processes.
Mankind MAY have some influence on the earth's processes but in the end the earth will win and do what ever it wants to do and that will be a long
long time after any of our relatives are gone.
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Skipjack Joe
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| Quote: Originally posted by Cliffy |
.... in the end the earth will win and do what ever it wants to do and that will be a long long time after any of our relatives are gone.
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You've just made my point. You have made this same statement over and over again on this subject.
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