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ramuma53
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JoeJustJoe
There are no Mexican title insurers, but some crooks are offering in house title insurance like La Joya del mar; there, if a title failure occur, the
company will just run or go bankrupt and with them the in house title insurance; you won’t find that kind of fraud any other place in the world; why
would you believe it in Rosarito Beach???.
But you have Re insurers like First American Title Insurance or Stewart Title Insurance; most of the others are just intermediaries to the Re
insurers.
The problem I have found with them is that they issue title insurance just too easy because that is their business, without really checking the title
legal chain to the bottom; instead they protect themselves with fine print and I think that is way of charging the land owner without really
protecting the buyer, dishonesty at the worst case. They make the buyer believe that he is insured against any defect on the title, but that is not
the case.
Just look at Maravia property near La Paz, they claim to have title insurance and they even show a title insurance, but at the bottom of the title
chain, you will find a Colonial title on the property they claim is theirs; I can say that, it is National Land.
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jenny.navarrette
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| Quote: | Originally posted by ramuma53
JoeJustJoe
There are no Mexican title insurers, but some crooks are offering in house title insurance like La Joya del mar; there, if a title failure occur, the
company will just run or go bankrupt and with them the in house title insurance; |
Rafael, if you actually READ those Mexican "Title Insurance" policies, you will see they are NOT title insurance. The company only agrees to DEFEND
your title in court, not indemnify the buyer from losses. It is like a prepaid attorney's fee. If the buyer loses the lawsuit and his property is
gone, it's his tough luck.
It's just another fraud foisted on US buyers by the Mexican real estate industry and their gringo lacky salesmen.
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DENNIS
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Let's hear it for Jenny. RAH RAH RAH Give'em hell. 
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jenny.navarrette
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| Quote: | Originally posted by JoeJustJoe
Yeah but isn't there US title insurance companies that will insure property you buy in Mexico? |
Nope.
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drarroyo
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| Quote: | Originally posted by jenny.navarrette
It's just another fraud foisted on US buyers by the Mexican real estate industry and their gringo lacky salesmen. |
and those silly enuf to fall for it (read HOMEWORK!!) deserve the impending misery.
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MitchMan
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fwiw, I took a real estate law class from a real estate oriented judge in Orange County, CA and he said that title insurance policies are in essence
an enumeration of exceptions against the land owner wherein the the title insurance company can claim no coverage provided.
ramuma53 is essentially saying the same thing.
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JoeJustJoe
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| Quote: | Originally posted by ramuma53
JoeJustJoe
There are no Mexican title insurers, but some crooks are offering in house title insurance like La Joya del mar; there, if a title failure occur, the
company will just run or go bankrupt and with them the in house title insurance; you won’t find that kind of fraud any other place in the world; why
would you believe it in Rosarito Beach???.
But you have Re insurers like First American Title Insurance or Stewart Title Insurance; most of the others are just intermediaries to the Re
insurers.
The problem I have found with them is that they issue title insurance just too easy because that is their business, without really checking the title
legal chain to the bottom; instead they protect themselves with fine print and I think that is way of charging the land owner without really
protecting the buyer, dishonesty at the worst case. They make the buyer believe that he is insured against any defect on the title, but that is not
the case.
Just look at Maravia property near La Paz, they claim to have title insurance and they even show a title insurance, but at the bottom of the title
chain, you will find a Colonial title on the property they claim is theirs; I can say that, it is National Land. |
Thanks Ramuma for answering my question, because I knew a few US companies were offering title insurance in Mexico, and I was wondering how it works.
I of course also read things from Jenny too on Mexican real estate where he/she claims there is no such thing as a bank trust( Fideicomiso) or Title
insurance in Mexico. But I also knew they had changes in the Constitution from 1917 regarding real estate in 1994 and I wasn't sure what Jenny was
trying to pull a fast one without telling the whole story.
But if you tell me something Ramuma I'm more apt to believe it.
I also understand laws in Mexico are changing fast and I remember something about the PAN party was trying to lower costs for Americans by trying to
do away with the need for foreigners in the border and coastal areas to purchase real estate throught a fideicomiso trust. Do you know what happened
to that idea or law?
Here is what I was thinking about when I asked the title insurance question:
_________________________
U.S. Title companies insure foregners in Mexico
The same title insurance coverage you purchased on your home in the U.S. is available in Mexico. First American and Stewart Title Insurance
companies, are two of the largest title insurance underwriters in the world and they welcome your business in Mexico.
According to Robert Calamari, President of Global Title and issuing agent for First American in Mexico : "We have determined that our risk, as
underwriters on Mexican property, is not much greater than insuring property in the United States. Assuming the same due diligence standards in
researching the property are met".
In assuring safe transfer of title in Mexico, the same protocol followed by U.S. escrow officers is adhered too. Verification that the seller and
title holder are one and the same, certification that the property is free of: creditor liens, mechanical liens, tax liens, and utility department
liens. Most important, a 50 year study of the property's history to assure that each transfer of title was done in accordance with federal and state
laws.
To buy coastal property, as a foreigner, for personal use (the entire Baja peninsula is considered coastal property), you must do so in a living
trust. If you are buying for commercial purposes, a 100% foreign owned Mexican corporation can allow fee simple transfer of property title to foreign
owned corporations.. Either method provides the benefits of ownership: Resale, succession of rights to heirs in perpetuity, or commercial use.
http://www.mexicomatters.net/mexicorealestate/06_propertytit...
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ramuma53
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bajaeng
It is an administrative case in the Direccion Adjunta de Terrenos Nacionales in Mexico city, file number 142525.
There, IRMSA is asking for the title to be re issued to Rosendo Victorio Victorio with copy to the Federal Police against La Puerta del Mar for being
squaters in National Land, taking advantage of the fact that, temporally, the land has no legal title.
The desk for the national land office is in the SRA federal office in Mexicali B.C.
There, for sure, they will show you the file I gave you and explain the inevitability of the issuing of a new title that cover the Puerta del Mar land
lot and that mean, that the Federal Government will take it from Puerta del Mar, eviciting any person they find there and then give it back to Rosendo
Vicotrio and he to IRMSA; just another inevitable Punta Banda.
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ramuma53
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JoeJustJoe
A fideicomiso is a contract between a foreigner, a land owner and a bank, where the land owner give the property to the bank to hold for the life of
the fideicomiso and the bank hold it giving the use to the foreigner.
That way, you do not have to trust the land owner honesty, instead you trust the bank.
If a Fiedeicomiso is well done, it is inexpugnable and will really protect you, because in case of any problem you sue a bank who cannot run and
disappear with your money.
It works as long as it is designed for your protection, but the problem exist, that usually the foreigner just forget about it and just let the
developer do it for him; remember that the fideicomiso is there to protect you against any problem that comes from the owner or developer, you trust
the wolf with the chicken.
When PAN took over the government, they used the land legality problem as a political campaign flag, but when they took over the government, found the
problem to profitable for them and instead of correcting it, they started the big cover up.
When they took over the government, Hector Castellanos Muñoz, one of the main PAN directives, asked me to expose the fraud against National land along
the Tijuana Ensenada Corridor, he asked me to give talks in front of the Tijuana Major Hector Osuna Jaime and all the public notaries; I did it in
1996 at the Tijuana city Government palace; then at the Commerce Chamber in Tijuana for all the Real Estate agents and public registry employees.
Then asked me to take Carlos Reynoso Nuño, the main governor Ernesto Ruffo adviser to Mexico City to bring back all the legal proof; the Estate
government paid all the expenses.
I did it and Brought back every legal paper needed; then they showed everything to the governor and he just decided to cover up the problem instead of
correcting it; he had to many properties and his relatives several developments, one of them Punta Banda.
Instead of correcting the problem and continue to expose the fraud, they allied the Estate government with the developers and started to cover up
everything, modifying the Public Registry with the excuse that they will digitalize it.
They just forgot one main fact, you can cover it up, but the problem is still there, because National Land cannot be acquired any other way but
through a National Land title and the old constitution violating titles were a bad argument, not sustainable against National property.
Punta Banda exploded on the hands of the governor´s cousin and other cases started to fall in court in favor of National Land.
The main advocate for the cover up has been Hugo Torres Chavert and the PAN party, tied with Ejido Mazatlan, who is in charge of collecting the money.
Today, PAN party is going out of office, Hugo Torres Chavert is holding a lot of vacant developments and Ejido Mazatlan continue to get money from
every person they can.
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ramuma53
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bajaeng
if you want to look at it youself, just go to the SRA office and ask for the file number (better do it in spanish) there you will see the actual state
for that file.
Also I can publish here one of the papers just put in by IRMSA explaining the problem and asking for the title to be re issued, received by the
National Land office.
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jenny.navarrette
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The title held in a fideicomiso is still subject to whatever defects were with the seller. If the land had problems before an American bought it, it
will still have the same problems when held in a fideicomiso. The bank guarantees nothing.
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Cypress
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Bottom line. Buy at your own risk. That's the way it's been and that's the way it is. No biggee, unless you actually think you own the property.
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ramuma53
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Jenny
The bank receive the land in a Fideicomiso traslativo de dominio , that in fact make him the land owner and that way, you have a bank as responsible,
not a guy who can run, of course that does not guarantee that a problem may not explode, but the bank, to make the fideicomiso, make a title study and
if the bank´s attorneys are smart (I Know???) they would catch any title problem, because at the end of the day, the bank will end being the bad title
owner and is liable for the money invested.
Also, you can not own land any other way.
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oladulce
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| Quote: | Originally posted by ramuma53
...BASED ON NATIONAL LAND PRIVATE PROPERTY TITLES ISSUED ON THE PERIOD 1918 TO 1962 AND FROM 1968 TO DATE ARE COMPLETELY SAFE AND I HAVE NEVER SEEN
ONE OF THOSE LOSE A LEGAL BATTLE, INCLUDING THE PUNTA BANDA FIASCO WAS WON BY ONE OF THOSE. |
What does a "National Land Private Property Title" look like? One or several pages in length? What should it say in the title of the document and what
signature and stamps should it include?
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ramuma53
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oladulce
The titles are usually with a gray watermark printed on security paper
First of all, it has the Mexico´s national symbol, an eagle surrounded by Estados Unidos Mexicanos and at the bottom of the seal, Secretaria de la
Reforma Agraria.
Then on the right side a file number and a title number below.
The main text start with the SRA secretary name with all the law articles the title issuing is based on.
Here please check that it does not say issued on base to the Colonial law, because then we have a Colonial title that is worthless now.
Then it say on big letters TITULO DE PROPIEDAD or property title
Then it say the name of the owner and the name of the property if the property have a name.
It give you the area in Hectares like 00-00-00 Has. that format you can turn it to m2 by just eliminating the - and substituting the has. by m2.
Then the exact location where the land is located including the astronomical coordinates citing each neighbor side by side.
Then the date the title was issued
Then 4 signatures
The Reforma Agraria Secretary signing in the Mexico´s President name.
(Asuntos agrarios ) agrarian issues sub secretary.
(Dir Gral de asuntos Agrarios) agrarian issues general director.
(Director de Terrenos Nacionales) National land director
Concerning the signatures, since those documents are signed by the 1000s every day, the signatures are seals and sometimes it show it is a seal, but
do not worry about this fact, I mention it because some people when they see it and tart saying it is a forgery based on the way the signatures look.
The at the back of the title, please check that IT DOES NOT SAY, BASED ON THE COLONIAL LAND AND SUBJECTED TO THE COLONIAL LAW LIMITATIONS.
It should start by saying that the nation reserve all the time the right to what is found underground. (You own what is on the land and the surface
but not the underground)
Then it say what public registries the title should be registered
Registro Agrario Nacional, Direccion de Terrenos Nacionales and the city where the land is located, public registry (This show you the fact, that only
the public registry, is not enough, to demonstrate property in Mexico).
This also tells you that it is not an easy thing to make a falsification of one of those documents.
Then it tell you a list of all the areas excluded from your title, like Federal zones and right of way.
The it show you where in the Terrenos Nacionales registry is registered your title, giving you the scripture number, book number and date.
Then it follow with the same data for Registro Agrario Nacional
The it leaves a blank that must be occupied with the data for the local public registry and cadastral authority.
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ramuma53
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Jenny.navarrete
Fideicomisos traslativos de dominio are the kind of fideicomiso an American need to be part of to be able to have security on his investment.
A fideicomiso is a contract (some people may argue this fact, but it is doctrinal already favoring this interpretation).
This contract is a contract where the owner give away the property to the financial intermediary named fiduciario, the owner is called fideicomitente
and the American is called Fideicomisario.
Yes, the bank, as the real land owner has all the responsibilities of the owner, among them defending the land in court in case of any legal problem;
this of course does not guarantee you anything, because if the financial intermediary did not do its due diligence in an appropriate way, it may lose
and the other party may evict you at the end.
A fideicomiso is not a guarantee against land problems, much less when it is against a National Title; it only provides you with a supposedly good
legal representation.
It is a bypass to the Constitutional prohibition to foreigners owning property on the forbidden strips on the international borders and the coast
lines.
It is a contract and this fact is important, because you are hiring a financial intermediary to act as the fiduciary, and this service provider is
going to be your representation in court; would you leave the choice of financial intermediary to the land owner? Would you leave him the choice of
who will fight for YOU????.
Also, don´t think only a bank can be a financial intermediary, because it must be a financial intermediary, and there are several kind of those, banks
are only one of those:
Banks, SOFOLES, SOFOMES are financial intermediaries who can draw a fideicomiso.
That mean, that you can shop around and ask who is the best at doing their job, because the banks are not always the best choice, but they are always
the most expensive choice.
This mean, that you are going to trust someone to buy your property, not the original owner of course, because he cannot by law give you the property,
but a financial institution and you have to find your best option, based on their past performance.
To be able to provide a good service, a financial intermediary, must have a capable team of professionals, who can not only defend you in court, but
to in the first place, study the property and advise you when not to enter in to a fideicomiso when the property has no clear title chain and is not
legally based on a national Land title; they must avoid the situations that will take you and them to court, not only defend you after the problems
exploded.
I think that one of the main problems in Baja, is that the American buyer, does not understand how to use a fideicomiso in his best benefit.
Fideicomisos were designed to protect the American buyer, but they are expensive because they are very complex and require a financial institution to
have a capable legal team and that sole fact is not easy.
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BajaGringo
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If you read Spanish here is a great page full of information, including an example of a National Land Title:
Registro Agrario Nacional - Grupos Documentales
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wessongroup
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ramuma53
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BajaGringo
Right on the spot
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ramuma53
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Concerning fideicomisos
A fideicomiso start in the Roman Law, then got enriched up to Common Law, the word has it roots in FIDUCIA, that means to trust, to have faith or to
have confidence.
A person transfer property of something to an other entity in the confidence that he will manage it in an honest way, assuring a contract will be
fulfilled.
The parties included in a Fideicomiso are:
Fiduciario is the trusted institution that holds the goods and assures that the contract will be fulfilled as ordered. Bank, SOFOM etc.
Fideicomitente the person who give the good to the Fiduciario to hold, assuring that he will fulfill the contract, usually the land owner
Fideicomisario is the person who receives the assurance that the contract will be fulfilled, usually the American buyer
The main problem in Mexico´s Real Estate transactions, is not the lack of laws, it is the fact that the existing laws are not being used to really
protect the buyer.
Jenny.navarete say that the fideicomiso exist only to defend you in court and he or she is partially right, but it is not only for that, you can use
the fideicomiso to really protect yourself, it is a matter of making a contract that really protect you, the Fiduciary will assure that the contract
is fulfilled.
The problem is that the American buyer trusts the wolf with the guarding of the chicken, you are allowing and signing a Fideicomiso contract that does
not fully protect your investment.
The Fiduciary only obey the contract, it only makes sure that the contract gets fulfilled, they do not draw the contract, you and the seller do.
If you accept a fideicomiso that only obligate the Fiduciary to defend you if a title defect is found, that is what the Fiduciary is going to do, not
a bit more, but not because the fideicomiso cannot do more.
It can get property from the seller and hold it untill the fiedicomiso verify that no title defects are found and in case a defect is found, it can
sell that collateral to compensate you fully, but I bet no seller is offering you one of those.
If you make a fideicomiso contract that includes a clause that obligate the seller to give collateral property in case a title flaw is found, it will
happen that way plus some added benefits.
To draw from that collateral if a title flaw is found, the fideicomiso does not need to go to court to grab and sell that collateral property, the
Fiduciary can do it next day, without even give notice to the seller; it is only a matter of drawing the fideicomiso that way.
In other words, you have the tools to protect yourself right now, no need for new laws, just do not accept a contract that does not protect your
investment fully, after all, it is a contract, just use it to its full force to protect yourself, do not accept the fieicomiso they hand you already
made.
I know that you were doing it, because you thought that the fideicomiso was only to allow you to buy property in Mexico, but a fideicomiso is much
more than that, it is a contract designed to protect you, just make it protect you fully, not only for some particular things that is a convenience
for the seller only, they are using it to avoid being sued or to have toprotect you in court after a problem explode.
[Edited on 7-8-2011 by ramuma53]
[Edited on 7-8-2011 by ramuma53]
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