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MitchMan
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Barry A.
Actually, thanks for the link. I will read it. Actually, I am studying a link on Supply Side economics that Iflyfish posted yesterday. His link is
26 pages and is very thorough. I am always open to more information.
MitchMan
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MitchMan
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
Statistically impossible for the 1% tax hikes Obama proposes to solve anything.. and he knows it... This is all election talk... liberal nonsense...
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No one is saying that a higher tax rate on the 1% is the complete remedy. That's just your disingenuous spin. I thought I told you to look up
"Strawman" false argument. You desperately need the education. While you are at it, look up "ad hominem".
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Barry A.
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Mitch-------Fish is a good man, and probably an excellent teacher, whether he is one, or not (??). He wisely normally avoids denigrating those he is
trying to teach, or reach. I always listen to those that show mutual respect, and give them my full attention-------conversely, I pay little
attention to those that attack, use insulting language, and generally display arrogance and a lack of any respect for those that don't agree with
them. You appear to be educated and skilled, and don't have to resort to insults and attempted intimidation, it seems to me.
But, of course, that is your choice.
No 'supply sider' that I am familiar with says it is "the only answer", but aspects of the theory do work, have worked, but it certainly is not
without flaws-------and all Supply-siders admit that including John Taylor, Larry Kudlow, Art Laffer, etc... To be using ONLY Keynesian ideas is a
mistake, and the recent history tho certainly not very long, tends to confirm that (again).
Barry
[Edited on 11-3-2011 by Barry A.]
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wessongroup
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Good stuff ... thanks to all...
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Cypress
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MitchMan, Yea, I tune in to Rush Limbaugh every now and then. He's an interesting individual. Who do you listen to, CNN, Chris Matthews AKA "tingle up
my legs"? So you haven't personally heard anyone say raising taxes will fix our economy? Good for you. So why raise 'em?
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MitchMan
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David K, will you stop with “communism/socialism” BS? Your posts are starting to sound like rants from a nut job.
Please look up ‘Strawman” argument. Please. If you want to preserve what little credibility you have left, you have to stick to the facts and a lot
more accurately comment on posts in this thread. You are drifting. It’s like the synapses of your brain are firing frantically and all signals are
short circuiting to the “communism and socialism” sore spot in your head.
| Quote: | David K
Why does anyone get to live here free and you want 50% of all the adult people to have the benefits of living here free? |
The bottom 50% don’t live for free. Who said that? Show me who said that. What I did say is that the economy doesn’t reward the
working class enough and over rewards the 1%. Also, due to the under rewarding of the bottom 50%, they don’t have enough money (only $15,000 after
tax) to pay more, if any, federal income taxes, let alone for necessities. Furthermore, I said that the 1% are not only over rewarded by the economy,
they have on average $923,000 left over after paying their federal income taxes. Also, I am saying that kind of money left over for that many
taxpayers, especially when compared to the meager subsistence money in the hands of the bottom 50% that is left over after taxes, is in large part
prima facie evidence of being over compensated. Hence, their much, much more grossly/insanely/profanely/noncomensurately larger economic benefit
should be taxed more in line with the magnitude of that benefit. It makes sense morally, quantitatively, and economically.
| Quote: | David K
The people or corporations that make 150,000,000 also create tons of jobs. |
What? Are you just plain
thick? I already told you that entrepreneurs don’t create jobs, the ECONOMY does. If you want to debate that, let’s get to it. Your repetition is
proof of nothing.
Lowering taxes on corps or the 1% only increases tax revenues under certain specific conditions, not all conditions. Lowering taxes has not always
increased production and tax revenues to make up for the lost tax revenues due to the lower rate. Now, you are really starting to get in way over
your little pointy head. I mean, do you, David K, know which side of the Laffer curve our tax rates are right now? Because, if you do, please send
your findings and data supporting your contention, in good form, to the CBO. They are working on it right now, and it has always proven to be really
hard and difficult to get it right ever since 1976. You know what the Laffer curve is, right? I mean, you are the one talking about lower taxes
increase tax revenues and because of increased production and that is all about the Laffer curve.
Also, there you go again, talking about socialism and communism. Strawman BS. Get a grip, will you? You’re starting to sound like a fringe lunatic,
way off base.
| Quote: | David K
A government that governs least is one that governs best... Give people their freedom back... take away the taxes and regulations that have almost
destroyed us. |
You left one out: “Government’s not the solution to our problem; government is the
problem”.
Boy, you right wingers love your slogans. If it weren’t for slogans, you people wouldn’t have any philosophy at all. I know, I know, if you can’t
simplify, you lose your focus. It’s obvious.
Taxes and regulations haven’t almost destroyed us, but lack of enough progressivity in the tax rates and deregulation by the right wing has almost
destroyed us and we almost took down the rest of the globe. Maybe you haven’t heard, but, it wasn’t regulation that caused this great recession
crisis, it was deregulation. Pull your head out of the dirt (I’d say sand, but it seems your head is stuck) and read a little. Even Greenspan
(Reagan’s lap dog) admitted that, so did Bernanke, and Paulsen, and most all economists on both sides of the political aisle.
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Cypress
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MitchMan, Slogans? Speaking of slogans. Progressivity as related to taxes.? That's a nice word. What does it mean?
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Barry A.
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Jeeezo----Talking to Mitch is like talking to a rattle snake, with about the same amount of comprehension!
It is a losing proposition.
Adios.
Barry
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desertcpl
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David K, will you stop with “communism/socialism” BS? Your posts are starting to sound like rants from a nut job.
good god, DK do you still carry your John Birch card
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Ken Cooke
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On Socialism Pond...
| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
Because the goal of socialism is to ruin capitalism so an ever growing government monster will swallow up all remaining bits of freedom and prosperty
and sink us into the gloom of stateism, communism and equal poverty with government as our master and savior. [Edited on 11-3-2011 by David K]
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David - As you know, I visited Finland in 2006 (before my Copper Canyon 4X4 run), and the people there were living better than most people here in the
USA. The only homeless people I saw were addicts that didn't want help from their country's socialized medicine. (Imagine that!)
Having a toast with new friends in Finland
The floating bar in Finland (only one, btw)
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MitchMan
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| Quote: | Barry A
Mitch-------Fish is a good man, and probably an excellent teacher, whether he is one, or not (??). He wisely normally avoids denigrating those he is
trying to teach, or reach. I always listen to those that show mutual respect, and give them my full attention-------conversely, I pay little attention
to those that attack, use insulting language, and generally display arrogance and a lack of any respect for those that don't agree with them. You
appear to be educated and skilled, and don't have to resort to insults and attempted intimidation, it seems to me.
But, of course, that is your choice. |
Good comment. I am taking heed. I generally try to match vitriol with a little more vitriol and I think that I do not cast the first stone. I am a
fighter, and I believe in fighting fire with more fire. In my view, I don’t start fights, I answer them. I could be wrong about not starting a
confrontation where none was started by someone else, but I don’t think so. I will watch for that, though.
When I take someone to task, I stick to the facts and I stick rigorously to exactly what they have written, verbatim. What I do not do is make
declarative unfounded statements without a foundation. However, I do see others make numerous and repeated unfounded statements, accusations, state a
wholly unfounded premise and then summarize their position by declaring a denigrating judgment which was totally based on the unfounded premise. I
see that over, and over, and over again and again. That, to me, does not show mutual respect, and I thereby do not show respect for them. I will try
hard to watch the insults, though.
I read your post after I made my last post.
| Quote: | Barry A
No 'supply sider' that I am familiar with says it is "the only answer", but aspects of the theory do work, have worked, but it certainly is not
without flaws-------and all Supply-siders admit that including John Taylor, Larry Kudlow, Art Laffer, etc... To be using ONLY Keynesian ideas is a
mistake, and the recent history tho certainly not very long, tends to confirm that (again). |
The bottom line, as far as I can tell, is that both supply side and Keynesian economics have strengths and weaknesses. I think it is and has been a
mistake to wholly adhere to one and entirely ignore the other. What my research is showing so far is that there are so many dynamics in the economy
that working the economy should be a fluid exercise, not a rigid one where either Keynesian or Supply Side is used completely to the exclusion of the
other. One of the problems is in the near impossibility to account for all the facets and dynamics without mistakenly leaving one or more of them out
or miscalculating a facet’s magnitude. The government and economists and business do their best to come up with some kind of modeling so that they
can predict the outcome of a given tax or given monetary or fiscal policy, but that has shown to be too great a task so far. They are getting better,
though. When they did get it right, in hind sight it often appears to been in large part luck.
With regard to recent events, Keynesianism was discredited in the mid 70s but then again revived after Supply Side failed to prevent the recent Great
Recession that we are in and produced a ruinous disparity of wealth and income which has served us up this sick economy with such an anemic demand
that no entrepreneurs are willing to produce due to obvious lack of demand. Europe and the USA found that they had to abandon the supply side
approach to stop the damage as supply side clearly wasn’t working and provided no stop gap remedy to the impending decline precipitated in 2007/8.
[Edited on 11-4-2011 by MitchMan]
[Edited on 11-4-2011 by MitchMan]
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Cypress
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I see! Strengths and weaknesses. Disparity of wealth. You're marching right in step with the OWS crew. Solutions? No. Accusations? Yes. Blame? Let me
guess.
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MitchMan
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Cypress,
I said that I hadn't heard anyone say that raising taxes is the ONLY fix necessary to fix the economy. Please, read a little more carefully.
By progressivity, I mean making the tax rates for income taxes different for different strata of income. As an example, 10% for the first $15,000 of
taxable income, 15% for the next $25,000, 25% for the next $35,000 and so on. A progressive tax is a tax rate that increases as the next level of
taxable income goes higher. I thought everyone knew that.
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MitchMan
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Cypress
I see! Strengths and weaknesses. Disparity of wealth. You're marching right in step with the OWS crew. Solutions? No. Accusations? Yes. Blame? Let me
guess. |
What are you trying to say? Are you saying the OWS group has no solutions, and that they make accusations and cast blame and that is all that they
are doing?
Well, my guess is that there are those in the OWS group that posit no real solutions and some that do have valid solutions. I am quite sure that many
make accusations and cast blame. That is what protesting usually involves. No surprise there. That is commonly what all protesters do, that is what
a protest consists of.
What's your point?
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MitchMan
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Cypress, don't listen to Rush, he's an uneducated blow hard. YOu will learn nothing real from him. If you are going to listen to right wing pundits,
find intelligent, studied, well credentialed ones. I do. May I suggest, Hugh Hewitt, Dennis Praeger, and especially Michael Medved. There are many
others out there with good knowledge base, studied points of view, logical points.
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Iflyfish
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Posts: 3747
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Ken Cooke
| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
Because the goal of socialism is to ruin capitalism so an ever growing government monster will swallow up all remaining bits of freedom and prosperty
and sink us into the gloom of stateism, communism and equal poverty with government as our master and savior. [Edited on 11-3-2011 by David K]
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David - As you know, I visited Finland in 2006 (before my Copper Canyon 4X4 run), and the people there were living better than most people here in the
USA. The only homeless people I saw were addicts that didn't want help from their country's socialized medicine. (Imagine that!)
Having a toast with new friends in Finland
The floating bar in Finland (only one, btw)
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I very much appreciate your post. Those are really lovely images and I am grateful you shared them with us. It seems to me that Socialism is indeed a
Straw Man here in this thread and in America. Few have traveled enough to understand what you have personally experienced and are sharing with us. I
too have had the very sort of experience you are having with your "Socialist" friends with people that live in “Socialist Countries. Anti-Communism
and Anti-Socialism have been consciously used to scare the American People and give them a common enemy.
The reality is that All countries, including Finland, have mixed economies as does the USofA. I very clearly outlined that fact in a prior post and
got NO response. Words like Socialist, Communist, and Liberal have all become pejoratives in our society and so throwing that label at someone is a
way to discount EVERYTHING they have to say. Too Bad. That is a very limiting thing to do with theories that may have inherent in them some of the
very solutions that we need right now.
It is difficult for many people to tolerate ambiguity and therefore they need to bifurcate the world into good/bad, black/white, liberal/conservative,
socialist/capitalist, Christian/Muslim etc. The world simply is not this way. I believe that many in the US live in a bubble and are unaware of the
larger world around them and their views are shaped by a Corporate Media that thrives on conflict.
I also think that fewer and fewer people read and so have limited access to broader perspectives. It is just easier to adopt a dogmatic position and
maintain that position even in the face of new information. The Theory of Cognitive Dissonance holds that if one repeats something often and long
enough you will believe it even in the face of irrefutable evidence to the contrary.
One more comment and that is on the current state or our economy. I have posted and documented that business owners say that it is the lack of
customers, not regulations that are their major problem right now. I have already documented this in a prior post on this thread. It is also a fact
Corporations have big assets on the sidelines right now as there is confusion in the market place. Corporations are unclear as to what the regulations
will ultimately be and whether or not Congress can get their act together and provide enough stability to create a safe investment environment. I may
have documented this, I am not sure. I am at the coast salmon fishing/crabbing, so don’t have the time to do more research right now, but that
information is out there and beyond refute.
It is also clear that there is a problem with deficits however there is a very real disagreement as to which would stimulate the economy more,
creating government jobs via funding infrastructure thereby putting money in the hands of worker/consumers who will spend that money on goods/services
vs. the argument that providing more tax breaks for Corporations and the wealthy will give them more incentive to invest and create jobs for workers.
It would appear to this reader that the quickest way to jump start the economy is to get people to work and our infrastructure needs upgrading. There
is also a serious issue with the debt but lowering debt will not directly stimulate jobs, but is actually more likely to shrink the economy and that
would make things worse. I am not denying the reality of a debt crisis. I have already amply bloviated on my views as to the source of this debt.
There is clearly disagreement on which approach is best. I think both are needed and more. I don’t think the solutions are binary.
Thanks again for your wonderful post, a breath of fresh air and a unique perspective that had not yet surfaced in this dialogue.
Iflyfish
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Iflyfish
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| Quote: | Originally posted by MitchMan
Cypress, don't listen to Rush, he's an uneducated blow hard. YOu will learn nothing real from him. If you are going to listen to right wing pundits,
find intelligent, studied, well credentialed ones. I do. May I suggest, Hugh Hewitt, Dennis Praeger, and especially Michael Medved. There are many
others out there with good knowledge base, studied points of view, logical points. |
Indeed. Well said as with many of your other posts.
Iflyfish
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Cypress
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My point? Just an opinion, everybody has one. Pundits? Rush? Hewitt? Praeger?Medved? Got any idea which one has the most listeners? OK! There's a
reason for that.
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tripledigitken
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Iflyfish
| Quote: | Originally posted by MitchMan
Cypress, don't listen to Rush, he's an uneducated blow hard. YOu will learn nothing real from him. If you are going to listen to right wing pundits,
find intelligent, studied, well credentialed ones. I do. May I suggest, Hugh Hewitt, Dennis Praeger, and especially Michael Medved. There are many
others out there with good knowledge base, studied points of view, logical points. |
Indeed. Well said as with many of your other posts.
Iflyfish |
Sounds like he's talking to a child to me. To presume that Cypress hasn't heard of Hewitt, Praeger, or Medved is pompous.
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Cypress
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Yea, Those liberals are indeed pompous. And cumbersome as well.
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