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MitchMan
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Posts: 1855
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Tripledigitken and Cypress,
back to the "drive by" one or two line accusations. What a way to buid a case. Profound, impressive, certainly persuasive.
Barry, I didn't start this one! All I did was post an earnest suggestion.
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mtgoat666
Select Nomad
Posts: 17639
Registered: 9-16-2006
Location: San Diego
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Mood: Hot n spicy
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| Quote: | Originally posted by desertcpl
David K, will you stop with “communism/socialism” BS? Your posts are starting to sound like rants from a nut job.
good god, DK do you still carry your John Birch card |
let him kep opening his yap. nothing wrong with socialism, communism or liberalism. he thinks they are bad words. he does not understand that most
of western world likes the words. the dirty words are conservative and capitalist 
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MitchMan
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Forgot to mention something when I first posted the below. Day before yesterday, John Boehner, when asked why the OWS were doing what they were
doing, he responded, in pertinent part, that he understood their desperation and said "...the economy was not creating jobs...". He didn't say, "the
1% were not creating jobs", he didn't say "the wealthy weren't creating jobs", he didn't say "business was not creating jobs".
Just thought I would mention that.
The top 1% is NOT where jobs and products and services come from. Jobs (that produce products and services) come from the ECONOMY. That’s right, the
ECONOMY as a whole. Remember, no economy, then no jobs, hence no products and services. BTW, a job is defined as a “filled job”, not an unfilled job
opportunity.
There are 5 things that have to exist before any job can come into meaningful existence.
Adequate and sufficient and existent:
1) market for the product
2) qualified labor pool
3) infrastructure
4) government/governance
5) entrepreneur to provide business management and production resources
You take anyone of the five elements away and you have NO JOB nor creation of a JOB. Just as Elizabeth Warren said, jobs are not created by the
wealthy or by the entrepreneur in a vacuum. If there is no market or people to buy the product, entrepreneurs will not organize a business to produce
that product. If there is no qualified labor pool available to hire, then no “filled job” can possibly occur. If there are no roads, traffic lights,
utilities, drainage and water treatment, maintenance, etc., etc., etc., in short, no infrastructure, no business can be conducted. If there is no
government to provide governance such as national security, fire and police protection and law enforcement, judicial system, management of
infrastructure, interstate jurisdiction, coordination, international representation, watchdog services over economic externalities such as consumer
protection, waste disposal, building codes, safety standards, etc., etc., etc., no business would or could sustain existence.
Lastly, I say LASTLY because 1 thru 4 have to exist in good shape first, then and only then can the entrepreneur enter the stage to take advantage of
the existing resources of 1 thru 4 and then put to work his production resources and management. No David K, neither the entrepreneur nor the 1%
create jobs, they are just part of 1 of 5 cogs of a wheel that participate together to form an economy and it is only the economy with all five
components in place before any job can be created.
[Edited on 11-4-2011 by MitchMan]
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Cypress
Yea, Those liberals are indeed pompous. And cumbersome as well.
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Exactly, why even pay any attention to liberals when you can listen to Rush Limbaugh and he will tell you exactly what to think. Ditto! Sure glad he
isn't pompous like those liberals. Those liberals are always calling us names rather than providing providing any documentation for what they say. The
world after all is composed of liberals and conservatives and what is important is to identify who is the liberal so we don't have to even address
what they are saying. They are just liberals and so we know that everything they say is bs.
It's either them or us. Those liberals are the enemy and they are out to destroy us and our great country. They don't love this country like we do. I
wish they would just shut up and not be so cumbersome, I have trouble with their cumbersomeness:
cumbersome [ˈkʌmbəsəm], cumbrous [ˈkʌmbrəs]
adj
1. awkward because of size, weight, or shape cumbersome baggage
2. difficult because of extent or complexity
See, I know big words too!! you pompous liberals!
Iflyfish
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Ken Cooke
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8923
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Location: Riverside, CA
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Mood: Its Pole Line Road time
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You're welcome!
In my opinion, the greatest education is global travel.  
| Quote: | Originally posted by Iflyfish
| Quote: | Originally posted by Ken Cooke
| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
Because the goal of socialism is to ruin capitalism so an ever growing government monster will swallow up all remaining bits of freedom and prosperty
and sink us into the gloom of stateism, communism and equal poverty with government as our master and savior. [Edited on 11-3-2011 by David K]
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David - As you know, I visited Finland in 2006 (before my Copper Canyon 4X4 run), and the people there were living better than most people here in the
USA. The only homeless people I saw were addicts that didn't want help from their country's socialized medicine. (Imagine that!)
Having a toast with new friends in Finland
The floating bar in Finland (only one, btw)
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I very much appreciate your post. Those are really lovely images and I am grateful you shared them with us. It seems to me that Socialism is indeed a
Straw Man here in this thread and in America. Few have traveled enough to understand what you have personally experienced and are sharing with us. I
too have had the very sort of experience you are having with your "Socialist" friends with people that live in “Socialist Countries. Anti-Communism
and Anti-Socialism have been consciously used to scare the American People and give them a common enemy.
The reality is that All countries, including Finland, have mixed economies as does the USofA. I very clearly outlined that fact in a prior post and
got NO response. Words like Socialist, Communist, and Liberal have all become pejoratives in our society and so throwing that label at someone is a
way to discount EVERYTHING they have to say. Too Bad. That is a very limiting thing to do with theories that may have inherent in them some of the
very solutions that we need right now.
It is difficult for many people to tolerate ambiguity and therefore they need to bifurcate the world into good/bad, black/white, liberal/conservative,
socialist/capitalist, Christian/Muslim etc. The world simply is not this way. I believe that many in the US live in a bubble and are unaware of the
larger world around them and their views are shaped by a Corporate Media that thrives on conflict.
I also think that fewer and fewer people read and so have limited access to broader perspectives. It is just easier to adopt a dogmatic position and
maintain that position even in the face of new information. The Theory of Cognitive Dissonance holds that if one repeats something often and long
enough you will believe it even in the face of irrefutable evidence to the contrary.
One more comment and that is on the current state or our economy. I have posted and documented that business owners say that it is the lack of
customers, not regulations that are their major problem right now. I have already documented this in a prior post on this thread. It is also a fact
Corporations have big assets on the sidelines right now as there is confusion in the market place. Corporations are unclear as to what the regulations
will ultimately be and whether or not Congress can get their act together and provide enough stability to create a safe investment environment. I may
have documented this, I am not sure. I am at the coast salmon fishing/crabbing, so don’t have the time to do more research right now, but that
information is out there and beyond refute.
It is also clear that there is a problem with deficits however there is a very real disagreement as to which would stimulate the economy more,
creating government jobs via funding infrastructure thereby putting money in the hands of worker/consumers who will spend that money on goods/services
vs. the argument that providing more tax breaks for Corporations and the wealthy will give them more incentive to invest and create jobs for workers.
It would appear to this reader that the quickest way to jump start the economy is to get people to work and our infrastructure needs upgrading. There
is also a serious issue with the debt but lowering debt will not directly stimulate jobs, but is actually more likely to shrink the economy and that
would make things worse. I am not denying the reality of a debt crisis. I have already amply bloviated on my views as to the source of this debt.
There is clearly disagreement on which approach is best. I think both are needed and more. I don’t think the solutions are binary.
Thanks again for your wonderful post, a breath of fresh air and a unique perspective that had not yet surfaced in this dialogue.
Iflyfish |
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Cypress
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7641
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Location: on the bayou
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Mood: undecided
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MitchMan and Iflyfish, Both of you have written lengthy posts filled with "facts" and for some reason you seem to be obsessed with Rush Limbaugh. Ever
heard the saying "Living rent-free in your head"? Do you really think
your posts are going to change anybody or anything?
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Cypress
MitchMan and Iflyfish, Both of you have written lengthy posts filled with "facts" and for some reason you seem to be obsessed with Rush Limbaugh. Ever
heard the saying "Living rent-free in your head"? Do you really think
your posts are going to change anybody or anything? |
Rush Limbaugh pioneered the art of bloviating, aggressive talk radio that has poisoned our national dialogue and filled it with lies and hubris. Much
of the nation is indeed fixated on his rhetoric. He has had an audience of millions and has influenced the thinking of much of the right. He is very
dangerous and destructive man who has a LOT of power.
I don't know if what I write here will influence anyone to think, read more, get the facts and stop using one line talking points to address well
thought out perspectives. I beleive we are all powerless against a Corporate run govenment unless we use our voices, it is what we do have. I intend
to use mine.
There have been a number of comments made on this thread that indicate that what I have written has been read and in some cases even thought about.
That is enough. Some have responded with useful insights, points of view and experiences that have broadened our discussion and that in my view is a
good thing. I value dialogue and learning.
Now, out for some Salmon and Dungeness Crab!
Keep your tip up!
Iflyfish
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Ken Cooke
In my opinion, the greatest education is global travel.
| Quote: | Originally posted by Iflyfish
| Quote: | Originally posted by Ken Cooke
| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
Because the goal of socialism is to ruin capitalism so an ever growing government monster will swallow up all remaining bits of freedom and prosperty
and sink us into the gloom of stateism, communism and equal poverty with government as our master and savior. [Edited on 11-3-2011 by David K]
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David - As you know, I visited Finland in 2006 (before my Copper Canyon 4X4 run), and the people there were living better than most people here in the
USA. The only homeless people I saw were addicts that didn't want help from their country's socialized medicine. (Imagine that!)
Having a toast with new friends in Finland
The floating bar in Finland (only one, btw)
|
I very much appreciate your post. Those are really lovely images and I am grateful you shared them with us. It seems to me that Socialism is indeed a
Straw Man here in this thread and in America. Few have traveled enough to understand what you have personally experienced and are sharing with us. I
too have had the very sort of experience you are having with your "Socialist" friends with people that live in “Socialist Countries. Anti-Communism
and Anti-Socialism have been consciously used to scare the American People and give them a common enemy.
The reality is that All countries, including Finland, have mixed economies as does the USofA. I very clearly outlined that fact in a prior post and
got NO response. Words like Socialist, Communist, and Liberal have all become pejoratives in our society and so throwing that label at someone is a
way to discount EVERYTHING they have to say. Too Bad. That is a very limiting thing to do with theories that may have inherent in them some of the
very solutions that we need right now.
It is difficult for many people to tolerate ambiguity and therefore they need to bifurcate the world into good/bad, black/white, liberal/conservative,
socialist/capitalist, Christian/Muslim etc. The world simply is not this way. I believe that many in the US live in a bubble and are unaware of the
larger world around them and their views are shaped by a Corporate Media that thrives on conflict.
I also think that fewer and fewer people read and so have limited access to broader perspectives. It is just easier to adopt a dogmatic position and
maintain that position even in the face of new information. The Theory of Cognitive Dissonance holds that if one repeats something often and long
enough you will believe it even in the face of irrefutable evidence to the contrary.
One more comment and that is on the current state or our economy. I have posted and documented that business owners say that it is the lack of
customers, not regulations that are their major problem right now. I have already documented this in a prior post on this thread. It is also a fact
Corporations have big assets on the sidelines right now as there is confusion in the market place. Corporations are unclear as to what the regulations
will ultimately be and whether or not Congress can get their act together and provide enough stability to create a safe investment environment. I may
have documented this, I am not sure. I am at the coast salmon fishing/crabbing, so don’t have the time to do more research right now, but that
information is out there and beyond refute.
It is also clear that there is a problem with deficits however there is a very real disagreement as to which would stimulate the economy more,
creating government jobs via funding infrastructure thereby putting money in the hands of worker/consumers who will spend that money on goods/services
vs. the argument that providing more tax breaks for Corporations and the wealthy will give them more incentive to invest and create jobs for workers.
It would appear to this reader that the quickest way to jump start the economy is to get people to work and our infrastructure needs upgrading. There
is also a serious issue with the debt but lowering debt will not directly stimulate jobs, but is actually more likely to shrink the economy and that
would make things worse. I am not denying the reality of a debt crisis. I have already amply bloviated on my views as to the source of this debt.
There is clearly disagreement on which approach is best. I think both are needed and more. I don’t think the solutions are binary.
Thanks again for your wonderful post, a breath of fresh air and a unique perspective that had not yet surfaced in this dialogue.
Iflyfish |
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Indeed Ken, travel can indeed be a great mind opener. I notice that none of the talking pointers have found it even necessary to consider or comment
on what you have said. The silence is deafening and telling. You have made what to me is one of the most salient points on this thread and the
response...............
I have noticed too that no one has responded to my assertion that ALL nations have mixed economies. I find this too interesting. Maybe it is easier to
argue them/us, socialist/capitalist etc. than to base thinking on this fact.
Iflyfish
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desertcpl
Super Nomad
Posts: 2395
Registered: 10-26-2008
Location: yuma,az
Member Is Offline
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DK
I know I shouldnt bother but
when you drive to Baja on the nice freeway, did you ever wonder how that came about?
I know you enjoy going to Anza Borrego state park, did you ever wonder how that came to be
none of this would never happen under a truly Capitalist economy
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JoeJustJoe
Banned
Posts: 21045
Registered: 9-9-2010
Location: Occupied Aztlan
Member Is Offline
Mood: Mad as hell
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
Yah, isn't Finland where millions of U.S. tax dollars is going to build an electric sports car (from money Obama said would create American
jobs)!?
Finland, and other Euro-Socialist nations will soon and many have already abandoned the cradle to grave government baby-sitter/ care programs...
Because they RUIN the country! The working people get tired of paying the tab for the ever growing lazy people... who demand 3 months or more a year
paid vacation (hey we all can't be teachers)!
We have higher productivity in America, because (until recently maybe) we like to work to make things or to help people. We don't expect to get more
than 2 weeks off a year until we have been at the job for a few years.. and then if we are off more than a month a year, we get itchy to get back to
work...
A former British Prime Minister (Margaret Thatcher) said it best... : The problem with socialism is that one day you run out of other people's money!
What do think is happening in Greece, anyway? You want that here?? |
Well I rather have my tax money going to build electric cars in Finland which will find there way back to the USA than using my tax money to pay for
Israel's defense which takes up a lot more of our tax dollars.
And speak for yourself. I rather live in a country or work for a company that one average gives their workers 6 weeks of vacation a year than one like
US companies that on average gives a two-week vacation. Why should the CEO and only Senior Management gets all the perks?
Many European corporations with foreign operations in the USA view the USA like we view cheap 3rd world countries.
Here is a great example comparing the Ikea's factories in Sweden to their factory in Danville, Virginia where the same product(s) are made.
Gee what a tough choice. Do I want to work in Europe and make a good starting wage, and actually having a life, or should I pick the US and pick the
slave wage, and have no life working 50 weeks out of the year?
_________________________________________
Though company factories in Sweden produce the same bookcases as the plant in Virginia, the Times notes that “the big difference is that the
Europeans enjoy a minimum wage of about $19 an hour and a government-mandated five weeks of paid vacation [while] full-time employees in Danville
start at $8 an hour with 12 vacation days”—and that doesn’t count the one-third of Danville workers who are paid even less because they are
deliberately subcontracted through temp agencies.
http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/ikea_joins_the_race_to_t...
[Edited on 11-4-2011 by JoeJustJoe]
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desertcpl
Super Nomad
Posts: 2395
Registered: 10-26-2008
Location: yuma,az
Member Is Offline
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DK
I knew this was a waste of time,
Fascism, unbelievable 
so your for government, but just on your terms, so you can pick and choose what part fits your beliefs and individual needs
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64612
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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| Quote: | Originally posted by desertcpl
I knew this was a waste of time,
Fascism, unbelievable
so your for government, but just on your terms, so you can pick and choose what part fits your beliefs and individual needs |
Not at all... I am for government that doesn't break the nation's laws... The Constitution! That document and its ammendments is the legal law of the
land. It is why America was the greatest country and why people from all other countries came here.
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rts551
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6699
Registered: 9-5-2003
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
| Quote: | Originally posted by desertcpl
I knew this was a waste of time,
Fascism, unbelievable
so your for government, but just on your terms, so you can pick and choose what part fits your beliefs and individual needs |
Not at all... I am for government that doesn't break the nation's laws... The Constitution! That document and its ammendments is the legal law of the
land. It is why America was the greatest country and why people from all other countries came here. |
And you, my friend, have the real interpretation of that document. Right?
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desertcpl
Super Nomad
Posts: 2395
Registered: 10-26-2008
Location: yuma,az
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by rts551
| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
| Quote: | Originally posted by desertcpl
I knew this was a waste of time,
Fascism, unbelievable
so your for government, but just on your terms, so you can pick and choose what part fits your beliefs and individual needs |
Not at all... I am for government that doesn't break the nation's laws... The Constitution! That document and its ammendments is the legal law of the
land. It is why America was the greatest country and why people from all other countries came here. |
And you, my friend, have the real interpretation of that document. Right? |
Really, I am sure he does
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desertcpl
Super Nomad
Posts: 2395
Registered: 10-26-2008
Location: yuma,az
Member Is Offline
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DK
so the constitution and amendments are only for Republicans?.
are you saying that when Democrats vote on a bill that is illegal
the last time I looked we had 2 partys, should you and you pals make the Democrats mute and unable to vote and pass bills unless they get approval
from the Republicans
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64612
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
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Mood: Have Baja Fever
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Ralph: The constitution is in English and needs no interpretation... but because some try to read more into it, we have the Supreme Court.
desertcpl: What does any political party have to do with this? Either you are a conservative and believe in defending the constitution or a liberal
and believe in changing the constitution... and there are liberal Republicans and there are conservative (or Reagan) Democrats...
[Edited on 11-4-2011 by David K]
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mtgoat666
Select Nomad
Posts: 17639
Registered: 9-16-2006
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Mood: Hot n spicy
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e pluribus enum? not in teabag-landia
the problem with this country is people think and that say stupid things like this:
| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
What does any political party have to do with this? Either you are a conservative and believe in defending the constitution or a liberal and believe
in changing the constitution... |
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desertcpl
Super Nomad
Posts: 2395
Registered: 10-26-2008
Location: yuma,az
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so tell me what part of the Constitution did Obama change
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rts551
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6699
Registered: 9-5-2003
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
Ralph: The constitution is in Englih and needs no interpretation... but because some try to read more into it, we have the Supreme Court.
desertcpl: What does any political party have to do with this? Either you are a conservative and believe in defending the constitution or a liberal
and believe in changing the constitution... and there are liberal Republicans and there are conservative (or Reagan) Democrats...
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Englih
I was woried their fur a wile. that it mite be in English.
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Cypress
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7641
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Location: on the bayou
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Mood: undecided
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About those electric cars. They use to call 'em "golf carts", granted they're fancy golf carts. But, and this a big but, golf carts don't cost $50K+,
I wouldn't pay a fraction of that for one of 'em. The Fins can make all they want. Finland isn't that big, you could probably put-put all around
Finland in a golf cart.
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