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bajacamper
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India’s Prime Minister, Narendra Modi, has indicated that he will not submit to Western pressure on cutting CO2 emissions.
In the lengthy run up to the international climate conference (‘COP21’) in Paris later this year, Modi’s comments will be sure to cause consternation
amongst climate campaigners. Indeed, since his investiture last May last year, the Guardian has expressed concern that he might be (gasp!) a climate
sceptic.
As the third largest CO2 emitter behind China (1st) and the U.S. (2nd), climate negotiators are keen to secure some kind of meaningful agreement to
reductions from India at the Paris negotiations. However, Modi’s ruling Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) has pursued a development agenda that is at odds
with Western hand-wringing. The BJP has opened up the nation’s coal mining industry in a bid to meet domestic demand. It has also taken on
environmentalist groups such as Greenpeace, regarding the latter as inimically hostile to India’s economic success.
Modi has made some conciliatory remarks aimed at the anti-CO2 lobby about switching to “cleaner” energy sources. However, the U.S. Energy Information
Administration (EIA) projects that India’s energy demands will continue to grow by 2.8% per year and that most of this will be met through increased
fossil fuel production.
It is possible that India may elect to follow China’s method of sidestepping this issue previously by making further promises to reduce ‘Carbon
intensity’ rather than overall CO2 emissions. This means reducing the emissions per capita (per person) rather than adhering to a total emissions cap.
China has failed to adhere to its own commitment on this, though it was sufficient to mollify climate negotiators at the time.
Ultimately though, Modi’s position highlights the continuing hypocrisy of Western governments who demand such restrictions with no regard for Indian
or Chinese aspirations for their citizens to achieve a Western standard of living.
Just another view.
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wessongroup
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How ya going to keep them down on the farm ... as the old saying goes ...
Difficult to tell Billions of folks ... well, sorry, but thats the way it has to be ...
[Edited on 4-14-2015 by wessongroup]
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mtgoat666
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Quote: Originally posted by David K  | | Quote: Originally posted by Cliffy | WHOA! Boy where did this drift come from after my commentary on evolutionary process of the planet Earth?
It's my contention that man is just another evolutionary process being "controlled" by the Earth's long history and it's uncontrollable processes.
Mankind MAY have some influence on the earth's processes but in the end the earth will win and do what ever it wants to do and that will be a long
long time after any of our relatives are gone.
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Mother Nature ALWAYS Bats Last!
It's good to try and be clean and green, but unless the other 7 billion people do, to pressure, shame, blame, guilt the 320 million (1/3 of 1 billion)
Americans is quite hypocritical or at least unfair and unrealistic.
In the end, no matter how clean and green we become, the climate is STILL going to change when ever it wants to. |
DK:
gringos are worst polluters. gringo per capita CO2 emission rate is worst. gringos are wasteful! the most wasteful!
http://www.ucsusa.org/global_warming/science_and_impacts/sci...
[Edited on 4-14-2015 by mtgoat666]
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Bajaboy
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| Quote: Originally posted by bajacamper | India’s Prime Minister,
Ultimately though, Modi’s position highlights the continuing hypocrisy of Western governments who demand such restrictions with no regard for Indian
or Chinese aspirations for their citizens to achieve a Western standard of living.
Just another view. |
It's no different than Israel telling Iran they can't build nuclear weapons
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wessongroup
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Me thinks India has more immediate problems ....
Continued attempts to expand the production of food and fiber has necessarily placed even greater demands on "their" water supply .. and this coming
year and perhaps others may have a rather negative impact on the ability to produce ... in qualities necessary to feed the people, let alone enter
into "trade" with other countries ... in finished farm produce .. let alone "decrease" co2 ... they are running on empty most of the time
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drought_in_India
And to think population isn't a factor in India ... Well, it takes all kinds
Not to mention the problems of human waste disposal ....
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?sid=aErNiP_V4RLc&pid=...
A bit dated, but, as I understand the current situation .... it hasn't really changed
And goat ... its the United States ... which just happens to be around 70% white ... as most folks SOB do tend to think of other Mexican's as gringo's
... "whitewashed" maybe ... but, definitely not Gringo
And if we are only kicking out 17% considering how much "oil" we use ... we HAVE made some progress ... which IMHO is good .. .as it used to be much
higher, in the 60s and 70s as I recall
That we become more efficient and less polluting is only positive long term for the human species and the United States of America in particular
Being free of OPEC and a few other nagging problems ... could make a big change in how we live .. 
I'm betting on science via the LHC ... to develop something which can move us a "quantum leap" forward in many things which have been holding us back
as a species
[Edited on 4-14-2015 by wessongroup]
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Sweetwater
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And again, on topic, the biggest population centers for the globe are having to address and deal with these same issues. Even though they lie at the
base of the highest mountains with their melting glaciers, China is facing significant fresh water shortages. This weeks Business Week notes that they
plan to use a lot of energy to produce fresh water through massive desalination projects. Some 400 cities in China are facing this fresh water
shortage with the projects planned for 2019. Their plans are noted to be the most ambitious but other countries developing and implementing
desalination facilities include Israel, Spain, the US and Australia. The current need is based in California, San Diego investing $1billion to begin
converting Pacific seawater by 2016 at a rate off 50 million gallons of potable water per day.
Denial is a river, a state of mind, or maybe just futile? The real world we live in has our footprints, fingerprints and excretion all over it......
Everbody\'s preachin\' at me that we all wanna git to heaven, trouble is, nobody wants to die to git there.-BB King
Reality is what does not go away when you stop believing in it. -Philip K Dick
Nothing is worse than active ignorance. Johann Wolfgang von Goethe(1749-1832, German writer, artist and politician)
When choosing between two evils, I always like to try the one I\'ve never tried before. - Mae West
Experience is what keeps a man who makes the same mistake twice from admitting it the third time around.
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motoged
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The End Is Near
My life will come to an end soon if this keeps up......
Due to water consumption needed to grow almonds.... ( 1 gallon is needed to produce 1 almond nut), there is a movement afoot to bring farmers into the
fray.
Years ago I discovered the pleasures of almond butter (roasted is better), and have preferred it to peanut butter for a range of reasons ( and don't
get me started on cashew butter.....proof there might be a god looking out for us).
Now, there is a movement against the almond industry in California....
hmmmmm????? golf courses, swimmimg pools, and misting stations.....OR almond butter?????
http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/almond-backlash-tied-to-california-drought-1.3031125
Don't believe everything you think....
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Mexitron
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Almonds use a lot of water but the cattle industry is by far the largest user growing alfalfa and hay. Eat less beef and we'll have plenty of water.
Residential,golf courses, etc. only account for 20 percent of the water used in CA.
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wessongroup
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“Whiskey is for drinking—water is for fighting.”
Mark Twain
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mtgoat666
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| Quote: Originally posted by Mexitron | | Almonds use a lot of water but the cattle industry is by far the largest user growing alfalfa and hay. Eat less beef and we'll have plenty of water.
Residential,golf courses, etc. only account for 20 percent of the water used in CA. |
your comparison is ridiculous. you fail to point out that gross sales of almonds is less than meat/dairy.
to evaluate crops use or abuse of water, a more useful comparison than total water used would be
quantity of water per calorie of food product produced
quantity of water per acre of specific crop produced
quantity of water per gross sales of crop produced
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wessongroup
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No Almonds ... Big hit to the Bee Industry and to Blue Dimond ... just saying
Will say, that I like Alfalfa ... over Almonds
But, that is because I loved the smell ... in the early morning after a cut ...
One of the best smells out there ... in Production Ag ... IMHO
Feed lots, chickens, turkeys and a few others, which also use a lot of water .... not so much
[Edited on 4-14-2015 by wessongroup]
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Mexitron
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Not ridiculous---I'm saying in overall water use for CA almonds use quite a bit (up to possible 10% of irrigation water). Cattle use upwards of 33
percent and more when considering hay and alfalfa.
Read 'Diet for a Small Planet' and look at some water use charts for California---its all there goat. But, specifically, since you asked---cattle
consume 25 times the amount of energy that we get back from them in calories so either way you look at it cattle are expensive (and subsidized heavily
I might add). By comparison chickens are 2.5-3 units of energy per returned calorie. And per your first comparison lettuce and other greens would
have zero value since they provide essentially no calories...so rethink your database queries.
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Mexitron
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Here's some info on cattle and water:
http://www.publiclandsranching.org/htmlres/wr_guzzling_water...
"When people think of California and water, they often imagine sprawling cities dotted liberally with swimming pools and watered lawns; legions of
vain auto owners washing their SUVs, sports cars, and minivans; and endless acres of verdant golf courses - all sucking down rivers both near and far.
This image is partly correct - rivers are going dry. But the major reason is not direct consumption by humans - urbanites running sprinklers on their
front yards and the like. In California, the major user of water is agriculture, and within agriculture, the thirstiest commodity is the cow.
Overall, agriculture accounts for 83 percent of all water used in California. It's true that California grows the majority of America's fruits and
vegetables, so liberal use of water by its agricultural sector would not be unexpected. However, few people would suspect that growing feed for cattle
is the predominant agricultural use of water in California. In 1997, 1.7 million acres of the state were planted to alfalfa alone. Irrigated pasture
and hayfields consume more water than any other single crop in California - more than a third of all irrigation water. 1 Together, alfalfa and hay and
pasturage account for approximately half of all water used in the state.
The story is similar in other western states. In Colorado, some 25 percent of all water consumed goes to alfalfa crops. 2 In Montana, agriculture
takes 97 percent of all water used in the state, and just about the only irrigated crop there is hay and pasture forage; more than 5 million acres in
the state are irrigated hay meadows. 3 In Nevada - the most arid state in the country - domestic water use amounted to 9.8 million gallons a day in
1993. By contrast, agriculture used 2.8 billion gallons of water per day. 4 Altogether, agriculture uses 83 percent of Nevada's water 5 - and the
major crop is hay for cattle fodder. In Nevada, while cow pastures are flood irrigated, wetlands at wildlife refuges and the state's rivers often go
bone-dry. 6
Cows are poorly adapted to arid environments. They are profligate consumers of water. Beef production demands an estimated 3,430 gallons of water just
to produce one steak! 7 Most western rangelands simply don't provide enough forage alone - because the climate is too dry - to run livestock
economically. Supplemental feed and irrigated pasture are also needed. Many of the ecological and health impacts of livestock production in the West
are associated with the use and abuse of water: the livestock industry alters water quantity and quality and water flow regimes. "
There's more to read in the article...
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wessongroup
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Dittos Mexitron ...
My aunt and uncle ran cattle in AZ ... was a full time job making sure they had water ... using a "cat" to make "catchment ponds" for ANY rain that
fell ... as there really wasn't much water around
Something changed when the Europeans .. replaced the Apache's with a different "land use" approach
One could say, change effected by man ...
From an article in the Payson Roundup 9/2014
"By June and July when the tall grasses had died, and before the monsoon arrived, the cowboys followed practices they learned from the Indians,
burning the countryside. Rancher Slim Ellison told of watching the Apaches tie a burning tree branch to a horse’s tail and send it across the
countryside and through the
forests to light the ground cover. They counted on the July rains to put the fires out, and in the process prepared the ground for fresh new grass. It
also kept the forests pruned.
Early military detachments during the Indian War reported a “park like” appearance to the ponderosa forests. The huge trees had open spaces between
them where grasses and wildflowers flourished. With the ground fuel consumed annually, lightening caused fires had no opportunity to climb into the
crowns of the
trees."
This has only led to the current situation faced by BLM and others in the area ... which isn't really very good, compared to what it was ... before it
was changed .. based on the need of very large "returns" financially speaking
After my uncle died (RIP) my aunt (RIP) ran it with my cousins for for the next two decades .. but, they got out of "cattle" in the late 90s ...
completely and focused on other business's which they were involved in ..
Must say, as a kid growing up ... it was living in a dream, for me, as that was what these folks were ... Cowboys
Loved their life style and where they lived .. in that period .. late 40s to the late 60s ... when subdivision took off for all those folks down in
the "Valley" ... who wanted to get the hell out of the Phoenix heat in the summer ... progress .. OK if you say so 
[Edited on 4-14-2015 by wessongroup]
[Edited on 4-14-2015 by wessongroup]
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mtgoat666
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| Quote: Originally posted by Mexitron | Here's some info on cattle and water:
http://www.publiclandsranching.org/htmlres/wr_guzzling_water...
"When people think of California and water, they often imagine sprawling cities dotted liberally with swimming pools and watered lawns; legions of
vain auto owners washing their SUVs, sports cars, and minivans; and endless acres of verdant golf courses - all sucking down rivers both near and far.
This image is partly correct - rivers are going dry. But the major reason is not direct consumption by humans - urbanites running sprinklers on their
front yards and the like. In California, the major user of water is agriculture, and within agriculture, the thirstiest commodity is the cow.
Overall, agriculture accounts for 83 percent of all water used in California. It's true that California grows the majority of America's fruits and
vegetables, so liberal use of water by its agricultural sector would not be unexpected. However, few people would suspect that growing feed for cattle
is the predominant agricultural use of water in California. In 1997, 1.7 million acres of the state were planted to alfalfa alone. Irrigated pasture
and hayfields consume more water than any other single crop in California - more than a third of all irrigation water. 1 Together, alfalfa and hay and
pasturage account for approximately half of all water used in the state.
The story is similar in other western states. In Colorado, some 25 percent of all water consumed goes to alfalfa crops. 2 In Montana, agriculture
takes 97 percent of all water used in the state, and just about the only irrigated crop there is hay and pasture forage; more than 5 million acres in
the state are irrigated hay meadows. 3 In Nevada - the most arid state in the country - domestic water use amounted to 9.8 million gallons a day in
1993. By contrast, agriculture used 2.8 billion gallons of water per day. 4 Altogether, agriculture uses 83 percent of Nevada's water 5 - and the
major crop is hay for cattle fodder. In Nevada, while cow pastures are flood irrigated, wetlands at wildlife refuges and the state's rivers often go
bone-dry. 6
Cows are poorly adapted to arid environments. They are profligate consumers of water. Beef production demands an estimated 3,430 gallons of water just
to produce one steak! 7 Most western rangelands simply don't provide enough forage alone - because the climate is too dry - to run livestock
economically. Supplemental feed and irrigated pasture are also needed. Many of the ecological and health impacts of livestock production in the West
are associated with the use and abuse of water: the livestock industry alters water quantity and quality and water flow regimes. "
There's more to read in the article...
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ya,... i know cattle are bad for the environment,...
but i still like beef. meat consumption is an "affluenza"
[Edited on 4-14-2015 by mtgoat666]
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wessongroup
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"liberal use of water by its agricultural sector would not be unexpected"
Unless things have changed ... it cost the growers ... one way or another and "costs" of any business must be controlled ... if possible
Pumping costs on 1,200 ft well's on the "West Side" of the Central Valley can get a bit steep ... just saying
"Groundwater conditions vary considerably from eastern to western Fresno County. Aquifers east of the valley trough are generally semi-confined to
unconfined, while aquifers west of the valley trough are generally semi-confined to confined. Most pumping occurs below a naturally occurring
subterranean clay, although considerable pumping also occurs above the layer, depending upon location and water quality issues. This layer is several
hundred feet below the ground surface, and pumping costs are high."
http://www2.co.fresno.ca.us/4510/4360/General_Plan/GP_Final_...
That's just Fresno County ... others counties have a similar situation in the Southern Central Valley
And they grow quite a bit in that region ... From Wheeler Ridge .. North
And is the reason the Governor of the State of CA and the other guys ... just passed new legislation to reduce the "overdraft" ...
[Edited on 4-14-2015 by wessongroup]
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Sweetwater
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What might motivate people to continue to drill baby drill and burn baby burn.....could it be that the huge money reserves have a stake in our energy
use? I haven't seen so many muscle cars on the road as I did today, cheap OIL and cheap mogas get folks stimulated.....
| Quote: |
Supply was only half the calculus, though. While the new Saudi stance was being trumpeted as a war on shale, Naimi’s not-so-invisible hand pushing
prices lower also addressed an even deeper Saudi fear: flagging long-term demand. Naimi and other Saudi leaders have worried for years that climate
change and high crude prices will boost energy efficiency, encourage renewables, and accelerate a switch to alternative fuels such as natural gas,
especially in the emerging markets that they count on for growth. They see how demand for the commodity that’s created the kingdom’s enormous
wealth—and is still abundant beneath the desert sands—may be nearing its peak. This isn’t something the petroleum minister discusses in depth in
public, given global concern about carbon emissions and efforts to reduce reliance on fossil fuels. But Naimi acknowledges the trend. “Demand will
peak way ahead of supply,” he told reporters in Qatar three years ago. If growth in oil consumption flattens out too soon, the transition could be
wrenching for Saudi Arabia, which gets almost half its gross domestic product from oil exports. Last week, in a speech in Riyadh, Naimi said Saudi
Arabia would stand “firmly and resolutely” with others who oppose any attempt to marginalize oil consumption. “There are those who are trying to reach
international agreements to limit the use of fossil fuel, and that will damage the interests of oil producers in the long-term,” he said. U.S.
State Department cables released by WikiLeaks show that the Saudis’ interest in prolonging the world’s dependence on oil dates back at least a decade.
In conversations with colleagues and U.S. diplomats, Naimi responded to the American fixation on “security of supply” with the Saudi need for
“security of demand,” according to a 2006 embassy dispatch. “Saudi officials are very concerned that a climate change treaty would significantly
reduce their income,” James Smith, the U.S. ambassador to Riyadh, wrote in a 2010 memo to U.S. Energy Secretary Steven Chu. “Effectively, peak oil
arguments have been replaced by peak demand.” |
full article here: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-04-12/saudi-arab...
Everbody\'s preachin\' at me that we all wanna git to heaven, trouble is, nobody wants to die to git there.-BB King
Reality is what does not go away when you stop believing in it. -Philip K Dick
Nothing is worse than active ignorance. Johann Wolfgang von Goethe(1749-1832, German writer, artist and politician)
When choosing between two evils, I always like to try the one I\'ve never tried before. - Mae West
Experience is what keeps a man who makes the same mistake twice from admitting it the third time around.
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redhilltown
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"I always carry of bottle of whiskey with me in case of snake bite...I also carry a snake" W.C. Fields (or something like that)
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wessongroup
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Ya mean like this ...
"707-horsepower Dodge Challenger SRT Hellcat? Hell yes!"
http://www.cnet.com/products/2015-dodge-challenger-srt-hellc...
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Mexitron
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| Quote: Originally posted by wessongroup | "liberal use of water by its agricultural sector would not be unexpected"
Unless things have changed ... it cost the growers ... one way or another and "costs" of any business must be controlled ... if possible
Pumping costs on 1,200 ft well's on the "West Side" of the Central Valley can get a bit steep ... just saying
"Groundwater conditions vary considerably from eastern to western Fresno County. Aquifers east of the valley trough are generally semi-confined to
unconfined, while aquifers west of the valley trough are generally semi-confined to confined. Most pumping occurs below a naturally occurring
subterranean clay, although considerable pumping also occurs above the layer, depending upon location and water quality issues. This layer is several
hundred feet below the ground surface, and pumping costs are high."
http://www2.co.fresno.ca.us/4510/4360/General_Plan/GP_Final_...
That's just Fresno County ... others counties have a similar situation in the Southern Central Valley
And they grow quite a bit in that region ... From Wheeler Ridge .. North
And is the reason the Governor of the State of CA and the other guys ... just passed new legislation to reduce the "overdraft" ...
[Edited on 4-14-2015 by wessongroup] |
Yeah, water may be just going to go up in price until a new equilibrium between crop type and price settles in. Though I think in the early days
water was a negligible cost in the valleys...and many homes out there had no water meters on them. Though rice might be here to stay since now things
have worked out with the migratory birds using the fields. Heh, arguably the best crop for the dollar/water would be marijuana. Start cultivating
some of that Turlock Gold.
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