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Cypress
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7641
Registered: 3-12-2006
Location: on the bayou
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Mood: undecided
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Cypress is really from Mississippi. And you two or three(MitchMan, mtgoat666,
and Iflyfish)? I'm betting you're all the best that the West Coast of California has to offer.
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Bajafun777
Super Nomad
Posts: 1103
Registered: 9-13-2006
Location: Rosarito & California
Member Is Offline
Mood: Enjoying Life with Wife In Mexico, Easy on The Easy
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The teachers,firefighters, law enforcement and correctional officers are not the reason for California's financial problems. The 100% at age 50 cannot
happen unless they have 30 years and OT does not add to the spiking of their salaries as it cannot be used. I did not work for the State but I know
what they get, so these false numbers that keep being said over and over make people think it is true when it is not. The last three years you are
talking about is the highest salary made during that time period excluding OT as it just does not go into the percentage of pay. After 20 years they
do get up to 320 hours of vacation that has to be paid if not used when retiring but they earned it. The uniform pay is given and taxed as salary so
that is included but does not add much to retirement it is the years of service that does.
The prison cost to the State is about 10% of the State budget but the attacks on prison unions goes on and on. I want these criminals locked up to
prevent them from harming others. The minimum salary for a correctional officer is about $3,700 per month and tops out at about $6,200 which takes 20
years or more to get to. To hear these ads against prison staff they say all make over $100,000 is just not true. Have correctional officers made
$100,000? Well, when they were understaffed and made to work large amounts of overtime probably but that is not the case now nor has it been for some
time.
Look, I have done tours through the a couple of prisons and you need to tour one too! Walk the line these correctional officers have to and lets see
if you think their base salary is too high. Again it is not the correctional officers but all of food cost, prison building maintance,medical,
education, special holding areas of the worse of the worse etc that adds up. So, attacking the unions won't help California. Instead, how about
watching what these politicians get paid and the benefits they continue getting when they leave office is just wrong.
I guess we won't even discuss how Big Business is playing this State or natural resources not being taxed appropriately when leaving our State. To
say it is the all the unions fault is just not true but big corporations want to keep the lies going while they stuff their pockets. Again, I am not
a union person but during my many jobs while working I did work in some union shops to which safety was a big plus when working in one.
Now, the big corporation take the jobs out of California and USA to China where the average monthly salary is $90 dollars and over 11 million Chinese
still live in rural cave like homes. Even in the manufactoring they just pay top pay of $12 dollars a day, so who can compete with that slave labor??
Start putting tariffs on these goods these corporations are bringing back into this Country. Note, these same corporations were making profits with
these companies here but greed and knowing they can get away with not paying taxes just keeps driving them to continue what they are doing! This also
allows these corporation CEOs to be paid 100 million a year while calling union workers greedy and too expense, GET THE JOKE HERE?
Do you realize if not for unions what type of America we would have?? They paid the price to establish a living wage for the working class even if
some of these working classes themselves were not in the union. The sweat shops women and kids worked in for big corporations were stopped cold. Now,
they are practicing this again but in China, India and other Third World Countries. Don't attack what is not the real problem for California and the
real problems are huge public assistance programs along with the high cost of education. The education system needs to get back to the basics and it
is not the teachers salaries that are killing the goose with the golden egg. Look at the administrators and their management that is blowing big
costs way out of line, especially in the colleges. Additionally, the facilities being built just to build them was nuts and is still nuts.
Just do some research on State costs, look at the cost graphs to which you will see the real costly areas of this STATE. In addition look at business
write offs even though they are crying the blues and then bringing their products in ships from China right back into our ports to sell to California
along with the rest of USA.
Now, can costs be cut in all areas of government you bet they can and need to be but they won't be due to politicians getting their own greedy little
hands into the pot! Wow, I must step down from my preaching box, as I really did not intend to write this much. However, I did because I am getting
tired of the finger pointing at those that keep the scumbags off the streets and out of our homes. When my house catches on fire I don't know one
corporation or politician that will rush over to help or put their life at risk. Nor do I know any of them that will step up risking their lives to
stop a criminal from harming our families on the streets or in our homes. Don't even think they will go out looking to take these dangerous pieces of
crap off the street and in California it will probably be one of their relatives,LOL. Take Care& Travel Safe---------- "No Hurry, No Worry,
Just FUN" bajafun777
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MitchMan
Super Nomad
Posts: 1855
Registered: 3-9-2009
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Cypress, are you the best Mississippi has to offer?
Bajafun777, well stated. Now, if only the righties could write like that. It'll never happen. Hasn't yet.
| Quote: | David K
How long will any country last when the non-producers out-weigh what the producers can give? |
Comment: I am going to guess that the reason you posited the above quoted question is because you want to point out and emphasize that,
notwithstanding the ostensible inequity of one party (i.e., the haves) paying for and carry another party (i.e., the have nots), mathematically and
objectively that circumstance leads to the certain collapse of the whole system. Well, I don’t think there can be any disagreement there.
Question to you… David K:
In the USA, how long do you think that the wealth of the top 10% could support the meager living of the non-producers (the unemployed at 9%)?
My calculation show 110 years.
Now, to all you hyperventilating right wingers out there in never never land, I post this not to suggest that the top 10% should hand over all their
wealth. I just want to point out that in this country the concentration of the wealth at the top is so large that that wealth could potentially
support the so-called ‘non-producers’ for 5.5 generations. I think that adds some perspective to David K’s question.
My point is to show that David K has the wrong focus.
The problem at hand is not that the wealthy are supporting the poor and that can’t go on forever, the problem at hand is that the wealth created in
this economy of ours is going disproportionately to the top and away from the bottom, crippling the bottom and leaving the top with multiples more in
wealth than they earned and multiples more than they can even begin to consume. A good and functioning economy is a more balanced economy where the
working class’s compensation for their work enables them to buy and consume what they produce. Even Adam Smith is for that result. (Maybe not David
K, though). That is not happening now and hasn’t happened at least since 1980.
[Edited on 11-4-2011 by MitchMan]
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Cypress
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7641
Registered: 3-12-2006
Location: on the bayou
Member Is Offline
Mood: undecided
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| Quote: | Originally posted by MitchMan
Cypress, are you the best Mississippi has to offer?
Not by a long shot! There's a whole generation of Mississippi born kids that'll clean your plow any day of the week.
[Edited on 11-4-2011 by MitchMan] |
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rts551
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6699
Registered: 9-5-2003
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Cypress
| Quote: | Originally posted by MitchMan
Cypress, are you the best Mississippi has to offer?
Not by a long shot! There's a whole generation of Mississippi born kids that'll clean your plow any day of the week.
[Edited on 11-4-2011 by MitchMan] |
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and that is literally speaking!
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64608
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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You know, I am here for fun and Baja information exchange... as a conservative, I strive to be a happy person. In these political exchanges, I get the
'feeling' that liberals are quite unhappy and always seem to resort to name calling and insults of their opposition.
Since my 'common sense/ conservative values' responses are gaining no ground with you who are posting on the left side... I will try and avoid this
thread and stay with Baja related topics (lets see how long that lasts, LOL).
Seriously, can't we debate things friendly? Will the Left ever admit their views are seriously flawed and history paints this so true? (yes, you on
the left will say the same... but conservatism is rooted in established, proven success for all Americans and we aren't about change for change's
sake)
Thanks for your time and happy 2012!
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MrBillM
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 21656
Registered: 8-20-2003
Location: Out and About
Member Is Offline
Mood: It's a Zip-a-Dee-Doo-Dah Day
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Can't we ALL just get along ?
The answer to Rodney's question is pretty obvious, BUT for ANYBODY still wondering about how the Left approaches Reasoned Political
Discourse, I suggest watching the Video from Oakland's latest protest.
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TMW
Select Nomad
Posts: 10659
Registered: 9-1-2003
Location: Bakersfield, CA
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by rts551
| Quote: | Originally posted by TW
[1) dismantling of collective bargaining, especially in but not limited to education, police and fire protection which only serves to reduce the
compensation of the working class]
I think all government unions should be done away with. The worse thing for the state of CA was allowing collective bargaining by prison guards etc.
and for cities the police and firemen. It will bankrupt the cities and counties if not corrected. I do not think they deserve 100% retirement at age
50+ (3% at 50). I also don't think they should pad their income with OT the last three years to get even more. The percentage should be based on their
regular pay. I also don't think they should accumulate vacation time so when they do retire they get paid for a year of vacation, 30 days max. I don't
care how many bad guys they caught. |
Just so I understand. At what age should they retire? and what percentage? |
I think 2% at 50 is plenty generous. But it should be based on regular pay not OT and it should be based on the pay you earned each year not the last
3 years. If you started at $20,000 the first year then $400 would be used etc. when you are ready to retire the various individual amounts per year
are added to provide for the annual retirement pay. Private companies use this system for pensions although they may use 1% with a 401K with matching
funds for a certain amount. In Bakersfield the police were given a 3% at 50 in 2000 and it nearly bankrupt the system. Last year it was put to a vote
because the city council could not or would not do their job and it was replaced with a 2% at 50. It still retained the last 3 years clause and I
think OT was included. Our Fire Chief just retired after 33.3 years the last 2 as chief and his reitrement is higher by a few dollars than his annual
salary $175,000. He most likely will file for a disability which means half his retirement is tax free. Now I don't begrudge him because that's what
the system allows but I think it's too much.
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TMW
Select Nomad
Posts: 10659
Registered: 9-1-2003
Location: Bakersfield, CA
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajafun777
The teachers,firefighters, law enforcement and correctional officers are not the reason for California's financial problems. The 100% at age 50 cannot
happen unless they have 30 years and OT does not add to the spiking of their salaries as it cannot be used. I did not work for the State but I know
what they get, so these false numbers that keep being said over and over make people think it is true when it is not. The last three years you are
talking about is the highest salary made during that time period excluding OT as it just does not go into the percentage of pay. bajafun777
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I was wrong in that Calpers does not use OT.
[Edited on 11-5-2011 by TW]
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Ken Cooke
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8923
Registered: 2-9-2004
Location: Riverside, CA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Its Pole Line Road time
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Agree to disagree
| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
You know, I am here for fun and Baja information exchange... as a conservative, I strive to be a happy person. In these political exchanges, I get the
'feeling' that liberals are quite unhappy and always seem to resort to name calling and insults of their opposition.
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I have camped with David a few times, and although I am not a Conservative, I tend to be very happy and enjoy visiting with my Conservative friends.
I don't like to bring up politics, because I know there will be disagreements. Instead, I like to argue about tangibles such as Jeeps vs. Toyotas.LOL
Backroad Baja with David K
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mtgoat666
Select Nomad
Posts: 17636
Registered: 9-16-2006
Location: San Diego
Member Is Offline
Mood: Hot n spicy
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[Edited on 11-5-2011 by mtgoat666]
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mtgoat666
Select Nomad
Posts: 17636
Registered: 9-16-2006
Location: San Diego
Member Is Offline
Mood: Hot n spicy
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rts551
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6699
Registered: 9-5-2003
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by TW
| Quote: | Originally posted by rts551
| Quote: | Originally posted by TW
[1) dismantling of collective bargaining, especially in but not limited to education, police and fire protection which only serves to reduce the
compensation of the working class]
I think all government unions should be done away with. The worse thing for the state of CA was allowing collective bargaining by prison guards etc.
and for cities the police and firemen. It will bankrupt the cities and counties if not corrected. I do not think they deserve 100% retirement at age
50+ (3% at 50). I also don't think they should pad their income with OT the last three years to get even more. The percentage should be based on their
regular pay. I also don't think they should accumulate vacation time so when they do retire they get paid for a year of vacation, 30 days max. I don't
care how many bad guys they caught. |
Just so I understand. At what age should they retire? and what percentage? |
I think 2% at 50 is plenty generous. But it should be based on regular pay not OT and it should be based on the pay you earned each year not the last
3 years. If you started at $20,000 the first year then $400 would be used etc. when you are ready to retire the various individual amounts per year
are added to provide for the annual retirement pay. Private companies use this system for pensions although they may use 1% with a 401K with matching
funds for a certain amount. In Bakersfield the police were given a 3% at 50 in 2000 and it nearly bankrupt the system. Last year it was put to a vote
because the city council could not or would not do their job and it was replaced with a 2% at 50. It still retained the last 3 years clause and I
think OT was included. Our Fire Chief just retired after 33.3 years the last 2 as chief and his reitrement is higher by a few dollars than his annual
salary $175,000. He most likely will file for a disability which means half his retirement is tax free. Now I don't begrudge him because that's what
the system allows but I think it's too much. |
average salary for police is $50,000 per year
average salary for firefighters is $41,000 per year
25 year career at 50, 25,000 and 20,500 respectively. Should we give them COLA's as well?
Well, they are above the poverty level of $14,710 for a family of 2 and at 50 maybe they can have a second career (security guard or Circle K).
Hopefully they were able to save something over 25 years of raising a family.
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MrBillM
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 21656
Registered: 8-20-2003
Location: Out and About
Member Is Offline
Mood: It's a Zip-a-Dee-Doo-Dah Day
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On the Udder Hand
Speaking of Bucks for the Bang:
Military spending as a percentage of GDP is at a historical low and continuing to decline.
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Cypress
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7641
Registered: 3-12-2006
Location: on the bayou
Member Is Offline
Mood: undecided
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| Quote: | Originally posted by mtgoat666
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Prohibit unions from contributing to political campaigns also!!
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TMW
Select Nomad
Posts: 10659
Registered: 9-1-2003
Location: Bakersfield, CA
Member Is Offline
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There is a COLA adjustment for many if not all cities and counties. I looked at Fresno and LA on line. I think $25000 a year pension at age 50 for the
rest of your life is a pretty good deal, especially when COLA is added. Unless you are disabled you still have 12 or more years left to work. The
$50000 salary appears to be the median salary in most CA cities which means half make more and half less. Private sector jobs don't pay that to hourly
employees and certainly not at age 50. If a cop or fireman retires and becomes a Walmart greeter or flips hamburgers at McDonalds that's up to him and
also why he probably never rose any higher in rank while a cop.
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rts551
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6699
Registered: 9-5-2003
Member Is Offline
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Thar makes the median at 25000 a year as well. and 14710 for the FF?
And I hear this a lot "also why he probably never rose any higher in rank while a _____". As the head of a very large organization (1000+) I used to
have to remind employees that no matter how good you are, not everyone can rise to the top (its a pyramid dummy).
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krafty
Super Nomad
Posts: 1052
Registered: 8-23-2010
Member Is Offline
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DK, how can you have a friendly debate when you follow that up with how "seriously flawed" the opposition is? You know what they say about
opinions.....
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TMW
Select Nomad
Posts: 10659
Registered: 9-1-2003
Location: Bakersfield, CA
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by rts551
Thar makes the median at 25000 a year as well. and 14710 for the FF?
And I hear this a lot "also why he probably never rose any higher in rank while a _____". As the head of a very large organization (1000+) I used to
have to remind employees that no matter how good you are, not everyone can rise to the top (its a pyramid dummy). |
Name a private company with a better retirement system for hourly employees. Only the military gets 50% of base at 20 years. The cops are getting 50%
or better (3% at 50) at 50 years old for 25 years and you don't think it's a fair retirement? Maybe you need to work harder to get into that 1% level
your so smart.
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Bajafun777
Super Nomad
Posts: 1103
Registered: 9-13-2006
Location: Rosarito & California
Member Is Offline
Mood: Enjoying Life with Wife In Mexico, Easy on The Easy
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It should also be said here that the biggest reason these wall street investors and big business corporations are pushing to break unions is for the
retirement funds. Just like they raid other companies the main thing they are after are the retirement funding sources. The weak regulations allow
them to steal them and then claim bad investments.
Public and Unions have to really be watching this issue no matter what or more people will have their retirements stolen right out from under them.
Who do you think will be wanting to do grab these dollars that will be forced into 401 retirement investments?? This is a real deal breaker just like
it was for Social Security that the wall street types and big corportations were foaming at the mouth waiting to pounce on. Be aware and Be Afraid,
Be Really Afraid even if in private business retirements remember Enron?? Take Care&Travel Safe----------"No Hurry, No Worry, Just FUN"
bajafun777
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