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Wiles
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| Quote: | Originally posted by shari
Another really scary time was in Ojo de Liebre (Scammons Lagoon) when a huge gray whale named La Puchona took us on a wild ride. This particular
whale was very strange and pushy and overplayful to the point of being a bully. She liked to push boats around and sometimes batted them out of her
way like a cat toying with a mouse. Mostly we tried to avoid her but she would come looking for us to "play" with. Her favorite ploy to freak out the
whale watchers was to swim on her back under the boat...and pick up the boat on her chest holding it with her 2 pectoral fins and then swim fast
upside down with the boat on top of her...there is nothing you can do when your panga is on top of a whale but pray...some tourists think it's funny
but I know how dangerous a boistserous whale can be and she really made me nervous and at times downright scared.
Sometimes she would play karate joe with her tail slashing close to the panga and other times she would toss the panga around with her nose....She
scared me many times but the worst was when my daughter Sirena was in another boat and Puchona got real rough with them. there was nothing I could do
to help and I could hear her crying and knew she was scared. She hated La Puchona and didn't want to go out for the rest of the season for fear of
running into her again. remember that sirena?
Most of the time whales are lovely, gentle creatures but there is always a bad apple among them and one should be very careful when dealing with a
psycho whale! |
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Wiles
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I led a few natural history trips back in the early 80's. Lost two people on a charter panga out on Scammon's. The whales' flukes struck the panga.
One person expired immediately the other a few days later in San Diego from head injuries. Don't believe the whale acted intentionally, think it was
just startled. They're awesome, massive, powerful animals.
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Sharksbaja
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I don't understand
| Quote: | Originally posted by shari
Another really scary time was in Ojo de Liebre (Scammons Lagoon) when a huge gray whale named La Puchona took us on a wild ride. This particular
whale was very strange and pushy and overplayful to the point of being a bully. She liked to push boats around and sometimes batted them out of her
way like a cat toying with a mouse. Mostly we tried to avoid her but she would come looking for us to "play" with. Her favorite ploy to freak out the
whale watchers was to swim on her back under the boat...and pick up the boat on her chest holding it with her 2 pectoral fins and then swim fast
upside down with the boat on top of her...there is nothing you can do when your panga is on top of a whale but pray...some tourists think it's funny
but I know how dangerous a boistserous whale can be and she really made me nervous and at times downright scared.
Sometimes she would play karate joe with her tail slashing close to the panga and other times she would toss the panga around with her nose....She
scared me many times but the worst was when my daughter Sirena was in another boat and Puchona got real rough with them. there was nothing I could do
to help and I could hear her crying and knew she was scared. She hated La Puchona and didn't want to go out for the rest of the season for fear of
running into her again. remember that sirena?
Most of the time whales are lovely, gentle creatures but there is always a bad apple among them and one should be very careful when dealing with a
psycho whale! |
You call this rogue whale a psycho. Is that because he doesn't fit into your world properly.
If (some) whales don't like it why would you think some would not rebel.
The same thing happens all over the world. Elephants on the rampage through villages, big cats stealing children, shark attacks on the rise. Deadly
snake encounters and bears killing tourists and recreationalists.
Shall I continue.
Is it not clear. It is to me Maybe our quest to inhabit all places has
something to do with it.
That seems more scary to me, then say......driving Baja at night.
DON\'T SQUINT! Give yer eyes a break!
Try holding down [control] key and toggle the [+ and -] keys
Viva Mulege!
Nomads\' Sunsets
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shari
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Mood: there is no reality except the one contained within us "Herman Hesse"
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Believe me Wiles....I've been studying whales for over 20 years and whales do everything intentionally (except if you interfere with a mating trio
they may not notice you are there in the heat of the moment) but whales are very good with their tales and in the early 80's the panga drivers didn't
know anything about whales and their temperments so they did silly things to them that resulted in quite a few "accidents" or as I call them lessons.
Was the person who died Mexican, because the father of a good friend of mine also died on the lagoon. You may have gone out with my daughter's father
who never listened to my warnings and ended up getting slapped good by a whale which he's peeed off too many times. With a swipe of her fluke she
sheared off the transom, motor and sent him flying....she knew who she wanted. Other incidents have happened where the whale knows the skipper is the
bad guy and generally goes for him...and leaves the passengers alone. These incidents rarely get reported as the government, tourism folks etc. don't
want people to be scared. I trained most of the guides in Scammons myself so most of them are pretty decent but there are some new macho guys who have
no idea what a peeved whale can do. I guess they'll learn. There was once a nasty guide that the whales hated and they smoked him one nearly evey time
he went out...needless to say, he retired early. Anyway, whales are just like us, if you bug them enough and they are having a bad day....look out!
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Wiles
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Shari...First off thank you for your dedication over the years in your cetacean conservation and education efforts. There has been tremendous
progress made in Baja over the past few decades thanks to people like yourself. Although I do NOT consider myself as qualified as many other cetacean
experts, I do have some experience to draw on. I have been the naturalist on several hundred whale watch trips including trips practically in your
front and back yards of Asuncion, namely Black Warrior's, Scammon's and San Ignacio. participated in some of the earliest marine mammal research
studies in the area as well as studies of finbacks in the Cortez. I think I've seen every behavior possible, from friendlies to 'pink floyds',
matings, calvings, participated in whale necropsies of 14ft calves to 80 ft blues, rescued a 34 ft juvenile fin stranded on the beach and spent
countless hours on the water observing behavior. Having said that, please let me respectfully offer a different point of view. No I do not believe
what happened on that fateful day on Scammon's was an intentional act on the whales behalf. The whale was not lying in wait to ambush a panga nor do
I think whales single out skiff operators for punishment. That would involve emotion, premeditation and thought processes not known to exist outside
the human species. One has to be careful not to assign human attributes to non-human entities. A more accurate description would simply be that a
resting whale (which is common behavior in the lagoons) was startled when the panga approached and was trying to get the heck out of there and struck
the skiff OR went into it's only natural defensive posture of slapping with it's flukes and the panga was in the wrong place at the wrong time. It
was impossible to know which. Is there aggresive behavior of whales in the lagoon? Of course. Hormone levels run high as sub-adults are role playing
and trying to etablish their dominance, while adults nearby are involved in courtship, selection and mating, and not to mention the hundreds of births
occuring all within a few shorts weeks. There is an inherent risk to being in a skiff amidst all this activity. Not the place for inexperienced or
caballero style panga operators (I too have seen many of these types in the early days of Baja whalewatching). To answer you questions 1) both
casualties were American of which one was a well known tenured Professor of Biology at a major L.A. college with 40 years of field experience in 90
countries. 2) At that time the only Pesca permitted tour operator in G.N. I am sorry to say was Mario (no offense to you or anyone else who might
know him). I urged members of my group NOT to go on the tour as my experince had always been that Scammon's contained a high percentage of very active
sub adults thus increasing the risks. They opted to go.
If I may ask, how did you acquire your expertise which enabled you to train all the panga operators?
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TMW
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["The whale was not lying in wait to ambush a panga nor do I think whales single out skiff operators for punishment. That would involve emotion,
premeditation and thought processes not known to exist outside the human species."]
Wiles will not a dog for example show aggression toward someone who has mistreated them. I once had a german Shepard that would become very aggressive
to the point of attacking any non-white teenager or adult male. The dog just came by the house one day when he was about 3-4 months old and we never
found it's owner so we keep him. He was very good with small kids and all white people. I assumed he had been mistreated by a non-white male. Or am I
barking down the wrong path here.
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windgrrl
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I've watched whales off shore at Los Barriles breahing and slapping their tails for over an hour. Shari, do you know what this behaviour is about?
When the way comes to an end, then change. Having changed, you pass through.
~ I-Ching
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Wiles
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TW...interesting observation my friend. Let's explore it. Are we really comparing apples to apples or apples to oranges?
Domesticated Canines...bred for generations to enhance certain traits, suppress unwanted traits. German Sheps first bred as workers (sheep
herders...enhanced traits.....loyalty and protection to the herd) then later as sentry dogs (enhanced traits loyalty to handler, aggression to
strangers..relied on keen sense of sight, smell and strength). They were purposely bred for work, loyalty and protection. Mmmmmm.
Behavioral science...ring bell feed dog, ring bell feed dog, ring bell watch dog salivate. Association behavior. Mmmmm.
Canine's have exceptional sniffers..hence...drug sniffers, termite sniffers, corpse sniffers, cancer sniffers and of course human sniffers...nothing
new here, right? Command dog to search, dog works, reward the dog....ring bell, feed dog.
Now that brings us to a fork in the road doesn't it. The left fork takes us to........If your dog's behavior is triggered by ONLY one race and that
person had abused the dog, then the dog be subject to negative behavioral association:
adult(size) + scent recognition(race) = abuse
in other words, 'ring bell feed dog' has become 'ring bell kick dog'. So now the dog's gene pool kicks in when the dog 'senses' perceived danger and
will do what it has been bred to do for generations....protect the herd and show aggression.
The other fork in the road might lead to If the dog's aggression is the same to multiple races the formula simply follows the traits of the breed
without any behavioral reaction (meaning no previous abuse):
scent different from herd (race) = aggression to protect herd
So much for the apples...now the oranges
Why do they do that? That's the million dollar question when it comes to whale behavior....especially greys. Spyhopping, breeching, fluke sailing,
beaching, and probably the most puzzling of all... the friendly whales made so famous in San Igancio Lagoon decades ago by Steve and Mary Lou.. How
can you explain such seemingly bizarre behavior in an objective manner?
Whales are not domesticated or inbred or crossbred for effect by humans. They are natures creatures unique to their species.
As stated before I believe we should not assign human attributes to non-human entities. Therefore we should be objective not subjective when
observing animal behavior in the wild. Example, when Shari wrote "the whale knows the skipper is the bad guy and generally goes after him" and "she
knew who she wanted" is a classic subjective observation. By definition subjective is "dervied from the mind or inner feelings of the person"
(Webster's). When making any observation it's best to be objective which by definition is "without emotion". Did the whale really dislike the
skipper....or by chance was she the one who did not care for the skipper? Subjective or objective.
Let's explore......An objective observation might be to question:
Is it the skipper or possibly the way he operates the vessel? Yeah, if you harrass a whale one of three things will happen 1) they will submerge not
to be seen again 2) they will zig zag, change direction, speed up, slow down and just make it tougher than it's worth to chase them or 3) they will
show aggressive behavior (although rarely seen outside the confines of the lagoons).
But this does not answer the question of whales seeking out a skipper, or skiff, or motor..... wait a minute, are we getting a little objective here?
Maybe it has more to do with the skiff than the driver, afterall don't great whites attack surfers on their boards??They say from underneath the
surface a dude on a board paddling the surf looks alot like a wounded sea lion and that seems like an objective observation...we've all seen the
pictures on TV. I have seen many a boat hull from underwater and a 30 ft panga hull can easily resemble a 30 whale....especially in the murky waters
of the lagoons. If I were a whale maybe i'd think a rival male was infringing on my territory or trying to move in on the female I've been courting
all day He's moving in pretty fast too, I better get to protecting my claim here as the only reason I migrated 3,000 miles was to mate and this gal
is the only one to show any interest in me. Mmmmmm
Well, if it's not the skipper and not the boat then let me see, that leaves the motor. Remember she said the whale sheared off the transom and motor
to get at the driver? Maybe the whale was focused on the motor not the skipper.Mmmmmmm
Whales are teriffic echolocators. Without giving an anatomy and physiology lecture here, simply stated they give off and receive sounds, much like
sonar. They use this for everything from navigation, food sourcing, communication and so forth. Greys are no exception. A low range gutteral sound
not easily heard by the human ear, but it's there.
The noise of an outboard is exhausted through an underwater port, really makes a racket. And that propeller spining round and round so fast really
causes a comotion. I remember one day off the 14 mile bank in So Cal I was at the helm of a 65 ft charter boat and received a radio call from a
research vessel a half mile away towing sonar gear. He asked if I had a bent wheel (propeller). I said yup, port wheel was dinged. He said it was
making quite a racket on the sonar gear, very irritating. Mmmmmmm
Have you ever heard professional fishermen talk about how a certain boat fishes better than others? Most people thing it has everything to do with
the skipper not the boat. Mmmmmmmmmm
I've seen Captain's of the Long Range Boats out of San Diego who make a living taking folks down to San Ignacio Bay, Mag Bay and the like on
fantastic whale watching trips who actually changed all the outboards on their whale skiffs between trips because they didn't like the way they
fished. Mmmmmmmmm
TW....all this to say I really don't know why your Shep acts the way he does just like I don't know what causes a whale to be aggressive in certain
circumstances. But I do know that if we want to come to some sort of understanding of these behaviors, the best approach is to be objective in one's
observations. At least, it sure can get you to thinking......
Thanks for the question.....hope you enjoyed the response....
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M
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Mood: looking for joy...
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Wiles...
That was OUTSTANDING! BRAVO!!!mmmmm
I am REALLY enjoying this thread, to all participants, thank you.
M
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Paulina
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Wiles
I've sent you a u2u.
P<*)))><
\"Well behaved women rarely make history.\" Laurel Thatcher Ulrich
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Cypress
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Welcome aboard Wiles! You have taken this whale-watching discussion to a new
level. 
Maybe you ought to start a new topic about whale behavior etc..
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chino
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Scarriest thing in Baja?
realizing that I have to go home to work!
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Wiles
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Paulina,
u2u right back atcha.
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Debra
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The time I took my husband.  (sorry, couldn't resist)
Almost as scary was a few years ago heading back north. I was heading down the long grade toward TJ headed to the border. In front of me I could see
this truck, large flat bed type with 2 X 4 slats around it about 5 ft. up, he was carrying a load of tires and the tires were a good 4ft. above the
slats, as I got closer I realized that they were not tied down and the back was totally open! I had a really bad feeling! About the time I decided
that behind this yoyo wasn't a good place to be and sped up to go around him I saw the load start to wabble, just as I got along side of him sure
enough the load came off, hundreds of tires bouncing all over the place, including off the windshield of the poor guy that had been behind me! I
looked in my rearview and saw that the guy was okay and had come to a stop. I kept homeward bound and often wonder just what a nightmare traffic jam
that was. It must have taken hours to clean up that mess!
Mean people suck!
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Skeet/Loreto
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Wiles and Shari:
Both of your Posts were and Excellent View of Whales and their Behavior as well as Human Behavior! I printed them off to show my GrandKids.
There is Young man and Lady from France that have been doing Research in the Sea Of Cortez for many years. I may have the Natl Geographic on his
Studies. He reports a White Whale{Albino?}.
One morning coming out of Loreto going North I observed a Large Whale on Top of the Water- I shut down Outboard. drifted to a few Feet of the Whale.
The Whale turned and came alongside the Panga. As she passed she rolled over to allow her Eye to Focus on the Three Humans in the Panga, she then
turned and came back up the Other Side and did the same!
I will never forget the Look in her Eyes! She was trying to Communicate!!
Virginia and I kept Records of sightings out of Loreto for the many years there, recording 48 in one year.
The Mexicano Pangaeros were very careful off of Pt. Lobos' as the Whales would Feed during certain times and come completely out of the Water with
Sardines stringing from their Mouths-One Panga did not get out of the way and was Dumped with no Serious Injury.
I observed the 18 Whales that Beached South of Mulege many years ago.
did anyone ever come up with an explaination??
A Thread on Whale and Squid would be Great.
Skeet/Loreto
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Skeet/Loreto
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M--A time when God Saved my Life;
Virginia and I were returning from a 7 Day Camping Trip from the Pacific Side, it was getting Late and we wanted to make it back to Loreto;
In the Same area as you leave the Cut off to Abreojos there are Three large dips going toward San Ignaico; As we started down I could see the Lights
of a Large Truck, as I usually drove in the Middle of the Road I drifted over- Somthing told me to get back on the Right side of the Road, Just as I
did a Large Truck came Head on down the Dip"'; Without any Lights at All'!!!! He was riding on the Lights of the two other Trucks.
Not Scared, just Stupid for Driving at Night-
Just put my Life in the Hands of God one more Time!!
Anon The Preacher
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