| Pages:
1
2
3
4
5
..
16 |
FARASHA
Senior Nomad
Posts: 848
Registered: 6-3-2006
Member Is Offline
|
|
 oh yeah, as I sayed - old habits ....., and I count myself in, and I agree - in
some things we do fine and easy, in others we are just awful performing. But thats alright, that maks the diversity - that attracts us.
And language isn't everything, it's the effort we show - that counts.
I always try to keep in mind - judge others the way I want to be judged - Fair and with Acceptance
|
|
|
fdt
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4059
Registered: 9-7-2003
Location: Tijuana, Baja California
Member Is Offline
Mood: Yeah, what if it all goes right
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by FARASHA
| Quote: | Originally posted by fdt
Not undestanding is part of the cultural difference |
Not necessarily, how often I do not understand my own culture. Every person is different, and has different experiences, devlops his own kind of
culture.
I don't think we have to UNDERSTAND evreything, just respect it and not disqualify it automatically as WRONG if it dosn't match up with what we are
used to. |
In my own personal experience living with a woman from KY for 14+ tears I meant
years, not understanding is part of the cultural difference.
This thread is going pretty good as compared to the put downs going on over @ the Asuncion one.
A well informed Baja California traveler is a smart Baja California traveler!
|
|
|
FARASHA
Senior Nomad
Posts: 848
Registered: 6-3-2006
Member Is Offline
|
|
fdt - Some people need this kind of conversation, some not. It's like with other preferences - some like Tea some Coffee.
I like cold/hot chocolate (depending on outside temps).
|
|
|
Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
Member Is Offline
|
|
ftd wrote: "This thread is going pretty good as compared to the put downs going on over @ the Asuncion one."
I am pleased to hear you say that. I was hoping that we could cool down some of that heat by discussing our issues in terms of "differences" rather
than “accuse/mands”, accusations coupled with demands. We have been engaged in somewhat of a social experiment by attempting to do just that. I too
think that we are having some success.
I was privileged to work with a Dr. John Gottman in Seattle who ran a twenty-four year study of over two thousand couples looking at predictors of
marital satisfaction and divorce. His is groundbreaking work, as prior theorists did not base their findings on research. If you are interested in his
work you can find it by doing a Google search. His paramount finding was that how husbands and wives talk with each other, particularly around
differences, predicts marital satisfaction and divorce. That is an interesting finding if you think of all of the variables that one hears about what
makes for a good marriage. A lot boils down to how we talk with each other. Criticism, Defensiveness, Contempt and Stonewalling (I ain’t going to talk
about that!) to any significant degree will predict marital problems. His view was that by taking apart conflict and identifying each persons position
as a difference depersonalized the conflict and allowed for greater respect and collaboration on how to deal with those differences. I thought that
Nomads might be able to discuss some of these challenging differences in a way that every one wins and we all learn
Now I think that this process is a typical Norte Americano way to approach an issue that is vexing or difficult. We study these things, take them
apart, look at them, analyze them, try to make sense of how our observations fit with other things we know. We make hypothesis, guesses, test those
hypothesis, and then form a conclusion that allows us to map out a plan of how to address that problem or issue. If the hypothesis is wrong, we throw
it away and form another one to test. I think that this process is very different from a typical Mexican approach. I think it is more typical for a
Mexican to notice the issue or problem and to see it as a natural phenomenon and not mess with it, “ne modo”, “it’s gods will”, “it is nothing I can
do anything about” etc. or find some reason why it can’t work or nothing can be done about it. I am not saying one is better than the other, I am just
pointing at what I perceive to be a difference. I am certain that these differenes exist for some purpose and have developed over a VERY LONG time.
Pacificobob,
I ordered the book THERE'S A WORD FOR IT IN MEXICO. Thanks for the suggestion. I have put Mexicans & Americans -- Cracking the Cultural Code. Ned
Crouch. Nicholas Brealey Pub in my que. Thanks Lee.
Iflyfish when not pondering
|
|
|
FARASHA
Senior Nomad
Posts: 848
Registered: 6-3-2006
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by Iflyfish
I think it is more typical for a Mexican to notice the issue or problem and to see it as a natural phenomenon and not mess with it, “ne modo”, “it’s
gods will”, “it is nothing I can do anything about” etc. or find some reason why it can’t work or nothing can be done about it. I am not saying one is
better than the other, I am just pointing at what I perceive to be a difference. I am certain that these differenes exist for some purpose and have
developed over a VERY LONG time.
Iflyfish when not pondering |
This kind of philosophy is to be found in some other cultures as well - I was confronted with it in quite some VERY different cultures - usually when
people are BELIEVERS of any Religion Or Old Cultures (mostly it goes hand in hand). The analytical solution- thinking, is more common in younger
cultures, or rather secular people. What would you say FLYFISHER??
BTW I'm also familiar with Gottman's work.
|
|
|
Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
Member Is Offline
|
|
Farasha wrote: This kind of philosophy is to be found in some other cultures as well - I was confronted with it in quite some VERY different cultures
- usually when people are BELIEVERS of any Religion Or Old Cultures (mostly it goes hand in hand). The analytical solution- thinking, is more common
in younger cultures, or rather secular people.
Interesting that you would call this a philosophy. I am not so sure it is a philosophy that we talk of here. Maybe more like the skin discussion you
were having earlier with longlegs. Our acculturation becomes part of us. It is integrated into the self. I believe we are born with native capacities,
the raw stuff of our neurology that sets the stage for the learning and conditioning that takes place. Brain damage or birth defects can cause people
to act certain ways regardless of their upbringing. People born with Attention Deficit Disorder are impulsive because their frontal lobes are under
active and do not act to inhibit behavior. Their hyperactivity and impulsivity is not a philosophy. It is a way that the brain functions in the body.
I think that we are shaped by scripting from our families, culture, subculture, peer group, social class and religion. We get messages from all of
these sources as to what it is to be a person in the context where we are raised. This scripting is laid down in our neurology and reaction patterns
are formed. These response patterns become habitual and sometimes stereotypical.
There are people on this list who have traveled much more extensively than I and may have more to add to this discussion on this issue. I do not have
a lot of cross cultural experience to relate directly to. However I think that the ways that characterize the differences between Norte Americanos an
Mexicans are also found as one compares Eastern and Western Societies. I read I believe it was Suzuki, the man who brought Zen Buddhism to North
America who wrote Zen Buddhism and Psychoanalysis who compared two poets describing a similar experience of encountering a flower. He compared the
twelfth or thirteenth century Japanese poet Bash and Alfred Lord Tennyson. Tennyson wrote Flower In A Crannied Wall”, please excuse my crude
rendition, it goes something like this, “Flower in a crannied wall, I hold you in my hand, were I to know you, root and all, I would know what God and
man is”. Now Basho comes across a nazuna flower blooming by a hedge. His poem goes something like this, “Ah!! It is spring! And the nazuna is blooming
by the hedge!” I believe that this comparison demonstrates one of the differences we are talking about in relation to Mexicans and Norte Americanos.
Tennyson wants to take it apart and see how it works so he can understand larger principles. Basho reacts to it. He does nothing TO it. There is
nothing to do. The experience is all there is. I am not saying one is better. Maybe both ways of operating in the world have utility in different
circumstances. This line of thinking makes me wonder what the functional utility is of these different ways of interacting with the world. They must
have survival value of they would not be so ingrained. It ain’t the water.
There are zealots and fundamentalists in all religions. There are people in all religions that take their literature specifically and concretely and
those who approach these things for their symbolic value. i.e. some believe that there was literally a virgin birth while others believe there is a
spiritual life that is entered into via a painful process and the myth of the virgin birth points to that concept.
The religious fundamentalist of course wants to limit questioning and exploration and does not see spiritual growth as a journey but as a destination,
that one must be at or be damned. That sort of thinking is of course antithetical to analytic thinking.
I wonder what significance there is in Mexico having been a conquered nation and before that ruled by brutal regimes. I wonder what role the fact that
Japan is an island and had up until recently a rigid and brutal feudal system has to play on these cultural differences. I wonder what role the
wilderness and the west have played in the development of Norte Americano ways of being. What is it in German history that would end up with them
developing so much science? What role does the age of a culture play in all of this? Good question.
Iflyfish when not staying up too late
|
|
|
FARASHA
Senior Nomad
Posts: 848
Registered: 6-3-2006
Member Is Offline
|
|
phi·los·o·phy (f-ls-f) Pronunciation Key
n. pl. phi·los·o·phies
Love and pursuit of wisdom by intellectual means and moral self-discipline.
Investigation of the nature, causes, or principles of reality, knowledge, or values, based on logical reasoning rather than empirical methods.
A system of thought based on or involving such inquiry: the philosophy of Hume.
The critical analysis of fundamental assumptions or beliefs.
The disciplines presented in university curriculums of science and the liberal arts, except medicine, law, and theology.
The discipline comprising logic, ethics, aesthetics, metaphysics, and epistemology.
A set of ideas or beliefs relating to a particular field or activity; an underlying theory: an original philosophy of advertising.
A system of values by which one lives
[Middle English philosophie, from Old French, from Latin philosophia, from Greek philosophi, from philosophos, lover of wisdom, philosopher. See
philosopher.]
I looked up for the best definition of Philosophy - and what I meant in my post.
And I meant exactly the very last line from above - the VALUE by which a SOCIETY lives. And that is what we are dealing with, in other cultures.
F
|
|
|
Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
Member Is Offline
|
|
Farasha,
"And I meant exactly the very last line from above - the VALUE by which a SOCIETY lives. And that is what we are dealing with, in other cultures."
So you believe that these differances are all learned, like a philosophy that one can study. Maybe. I can certainly see how this could be. Passed from
generation to generation by instruction and modeling. Culture as a heritage of learning. Maybe. I wonder if it is also possible that these centuries
of learning may have also affected the basic structure of the brain so that some of these ways of being have become hard wired? I notice that birds
are all birds, but build different nests. I wonder why?
Iflyfish and build nests
|
|
|
Cypress
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7641
Registered: 3-12-2006
Location: on the bayou
Member Is Offline
Mood: undecided
|
|
Enjoying this exchange of ideas/thoughts about what makes us tic. 
|
|
|
FARASHA
Senior Nomad
Posts: 848
Registered: 6-3-2006
Member Is Offline
|
|
HELLO YOUFLYFISH whn not resting - had a good sleep finally??
OKAY - NO Flyfish, it does not imply that it is LEARNED, it is a collection of Many influences I think - and each cultures devlopes its own. Has other
perspectivs on things, other priorities, values.
|
|
|
toneart
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4901
Registered: 7-23-2006
Member Is Offline
Mood: Skeptical
|
|
This is a great discussion!
Because I cannot improve on what has already been said, I will blend east/west philosophy by remarking here, and at the same time, do nothing.
Well....I will continue to read this wonderful debate.
In my opinion, this is the best and highest example of what good Nomads are all about.
|
|
|
FARASHA
Senior Nomad
Posts: 848
Registered: 6-3-2006
Member Is Offline
|
|
Great that some people enjoy this thread as much!!
|
|
|
Osprey
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3694
Registered: 5-23-2004
Location: Baja Ca. Sur
Member Is Offline
|
|
The best thread! Many Amerindians continue to follow the philosophy of Kant and Erlich. Kant, basically said "To do is to be" while Erlich espoused
the view "To be is to do." I have always followed the school of Dr. Abert Francis Sinatra (the Chairman of the Board) who cleverly combined the two
theories as "Do be, do be, do."
|
|
|
Sharksbaja
Elite Nomad
Posts: 5814
Registered: 9-7-2004
Location: Newport, Mulege B.C.S.
Member Is Offline
|
|
But
Jorge, it's spelled Doobey Doobey Do. What were the chances.....we'd be sharing
Baja........ before the day is thru.....
|
|
|
toneart
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4901
Registered: 7-23-2006
Member Is Offline
Mood: Skeptical
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by Osprey
The best thread! Many Amerindians continue to follow the philosophy of Kant and Erlich. Kant, basically said "To do is to be" while Erlich espoused
the view "To be is to do." I have always followed the school of Dr. Abert Francis Sinatra (the Chairman of the Board) who cleverly combined the two
theories as "Do be, do be, do." |
Now this string is becoming terminally hip!
|
|
|
Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
Member Is Offline
|
|
Do/Be, Do/Be, Do!
I like that!
Idobedobedoflyfish
|
|
|
Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
Member Is Offline
|
|
Except be careful where you doobie do and flyfish.
Iflyfishanddoobiedobedo
|
|
|
Cypress
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7641
Registered: 3-12-2006
Location: on the bayou
Member Is Offline
Mood: undecided
|
|
Spread your wings and fly! Don't worry about the doobie do, just focus on the
landing zone!
|
|
|
fdt
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4059
Registered: 9-7-2003
Location: Tijuana, Baja California
Member Is Offline
Mood: Yeah, what if it all goes right
|
|
With kids arownd all that I can do is Scooby Dooby Do
A well informed Baja California traveler is a smart Baja California traveler!
|
|
|
Oso
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 2637
Registered: 8-29-2003
Location: on da border
Member Is Offline
Mood: wait and see
|
|
It is possible to understand, even adapt, but extremely difficult to entirely overcome one's own cultural indoctrination. A particular trait of my
dear wife and others I deal with on a daily basis, particularly my Maintenance Supervisor, is that Mexican, maybe Indian as well, necessity of laying
out the background, establishing the setting, relating the history from the beginning
and dealing with all the peripheral issues before saying what it is they came to say. After all these years, I recognize what is happening and know
how rude it would be to interrupt. So I smile and nod, murmur uh-huh and wait for it. But all the while, my gringo skull is about to split open from
the voice within screaming "GET TO THE F***ING POINT!!!!!!!
All my childhood I wanted to be older. Now I\'m older and this chitn sucks.
|
|
|
| Pages:
1
2
3
4
5
..
16 |
![[*]](images/xmbforum/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
