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Russ
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6742
Registered: 7-4-2004
Location: Punta Chivato
Member Is Offline
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Behind Palo Verde
Cave mouth
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Russ
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6742
Registered: 7-4-2004
Location: Punta Chivato
Member Is Offline
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Painting 1
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mtgoat666
Select Nomad
Posts: 18407
Registered: 9-16-2006
Location: San Diego
Member Is Offline
Mood: Hot n spicy
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
Link 1 was for Australia, Link 2 was for Northern Calif., Link 3 Arizona and Link 4 New Mexico... nice links, but not addressing the MEXICAN sites, or
the education of Mexicans in the hope they gain respect for the petros....
I want the rock art sites to be preserved as much as you do Wilderone... but public intetrest in them is the best way make them valuable enough for
the Mexicans to keep them. You can't raise much public interest if the public doesnt know about them.
This is the same reason that Jack Swords and I have the BajaMissions web page with GPS directions... So the interested people can go there and enjoy
them and to show INAH there is a value to ALL the mission sites... not just the ones next to Hwy. 1 or still in operation.
I want to make a personal check to confirm, but it would seem that some rancher or ejido has destroyed the mission visita of San Juan de Dios...
because nobody cared enough to preserve it and its location was barely (if at all) mentioned in the guidebooks people use to tour Baja.
You see, when it is unknown nobody will miss it or have any reason to preserve it...
Make something known so people want to see it or save it, it then has value to more... including those that benefit from visitors, the local
population.
Baja Nomads and those that read this site are seeking things to see in Baja, to enjoy and to return with their children and others to also enjoy the
sites... Let them see them before they are lost because they were kept secret and destroyed by those who did not care.
Okay, that's my opinion.. I hope you see the logic in it. Keeping the sites secret has not halted the destruction reported on your non-Baja petro
links so I see a flaw in that logic.
BajaMissions |
If you publish locations, you will get looters. Period. Unfortunately, the material that can be taken from pristine sites is very marketable, and
pristine sites will be looted. Don't publicize archaeological sites!
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Bug
Junior Nomad
Posts: 62
Registered: 11-12-2005
Location: San Felipe, Baja
Member Is Offline
Mood: Life can not get better than this!
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What canyon russ did you find the mouth of that rock with petroglyps. That is a really neat that you found that. The desert has much to offer.
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Russ
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6742
Registered: 7-4-2004
Location: Punta Chivato
Member Is Offline
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Bug, Across the hwy. from Palo Verde you'll see a blue sign follow that road and ask at the first rancho. You're suppose to have a guide for this one
but I think any rancher in the area will get you there.
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Roberto
Banned
Posts: 2162
Registered: 9-5-2003
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by mtgoat666
If you publish locations, you will get looters. Period. Unfortunately, the material that can be taken from pristine sites is very marketable, and
pristine sites will be looted. Don't publicize archaeological sites! |
Obviously, but good luck convincing DK of that. He's been 'splainin how that's not true for years. Regardless of others tell him about archaeological
sites and other stuff, he just keeps playing the same tune. The "Nomad brotherhood" would never do that, he says (paraphrasing). Go figure - he
doesn't seem to understand that this is nothing more than a public website that people post on. Some friendships have been made, I'm sure, but it's
the public Internet, nothing more.
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64859
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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I have been to Baja petro sites before most here have ever been to Baja and before many were even born... The sites are not secrets, they were
published in books... By showing them here, those who will not get there will enjoy them, and by giving directions to them those who can enjoy them in
person, will... Let's see them before the local punks or vacationing families that Roberto claims use Nomad to find these sites paint over them.
Shame on those who have seen them and think nobody else here has the right to as well.
I did find a nice petro site that I didn't know about and shared it with you here before it is painted or some rancher bulldozes it. It is worthless
if unknown... and priceless if shared... and gone forever once it is ruined.
All those who enjoy these sites should know where they are so they can be experienced.
If you really think those paint sprayers are reading THIS site just salivating at a petro they can ruin (if they even read English), then how about
this:
I will provide GPS and exact milages to future sites I show here on Nomad only via email or Nomad U2U. Emails must come from registered Baja Nomad
members, not lurkers.
IS THAT A FAIR COMPROMISE?
Have a nice day and GO CHARGERS!
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Roberto
Banned
Posts: 2162
Registered: 9-5-2003
Member Is Offline
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David, the point has nothing to do with what you did with your parents when you were a kid. I'm two years older that you are, and I do not think that
the places I was at as a child make me an "explorer". The POINT is that you want to deny what is patently obvious and amply demonstrated time after
time - publicity does NOT help remote sites. What do you think, some museum or historical society will see your GPS waypoints and decide to hire
security for them? 
It's pretty simple - those that are interested enough to spend the time and trouble to find out-of-the way places are more likely to care for them
than those that look the locations up on a website and follow their GPS there. You think these places we're talking about will be turned into National
Parks like Yosemite?
[Edited on 1-13-2008 by Roberto]
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64859
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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Some facts
| Quote: | Originally posted by Roberto
David, the point has nothing to do with what you did with your parents when you were a kid. I'm two years older that you are, and I do not think that
the places I was at as a child make me an "explorer". The POINT is that you want to deny what is patently obvious and amply demonstrated time after
time - publicity does NOT help remote sites. What do you think, some museum or historical society will see your GPS waypoints and decide to hire
security for them?
It's pretty simple - those that are interested enough to spend the time and trouble to find out-of-the way places are more likely to care for them
than those that look the locations up on a website and follow their GPS there. You think these places we're talking about will be turned into National
Parks like Yosemite?
[Edited on 1-13-2008 by Roberto] |
Well Roberto, I never visited petro sites with my parents, before I turned 16 and started going to Baja on my own... My dad loved fishing, and that
was the draw for him... I went to my first petro site on my first 'non-parent' trip to Baja at 16 (with a high school friend) during Easter Vacation,
1974... the cliff just west of Mision San Fernando Velicata where we camped the first night out from San Diego.
I loved Baja for much more than fishing... the history and natural beauty, beaches and to be involved in off road racing all brought me down.
So, once again you are in error about me or why I share my trips here on Nomad... and once again I wonder why you feel the need to so badly speak
against my contributions to this site?
The sites must be seen by those that want to before they are gone... I will continue to encourage people to be excited by the past human events on the
peninsula and to see them, enjoy them, and show the locals how VALUABLE they are IF preserved and un-molested by pranksters or stupid people...
Doing nothing, saying nothing will not, nor has not prevented grafitti or preserved history... it just allows it to disappear forever... nothing
learned, nothing gained...
So you and those who think that silence is best... just go ahead and keep your memories until you die... Unlike you, I want as many people to have the
experience of enjoying the history of Baja that want to, and will provide as much as I am able.
People are here on Nomad to get something, not to see nothing. If you don't want to see or read about the great sites in Baja, then this site, or at
least my posts should be avoided by you... yes?
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Barry A.
Select Nomad
Posts: 10007
Registered: 11-30-2003
Location: Redding, Northern CA
Member Is Offline
Mood: optimistic
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With all do respect, Roberto, the policy you espouse can arguably cause MORE damage to sites--------and if you don't understand that then I probably
cannot convince you.
Another point: If folks don't get to see these sites, then in reality what good are they??? These sites only have value when "people" GIVE them
value-----they have no intrinsic value of their own.
------as I have said before, you are, in a sense, punishing all folks (except the "elete" priviledged folks in-the-know) to control the actions of a
very minor few. This makes a lot of us just angry!! Sharing information as David does causes only certain (selfish??) elete to get mad, it seems
to me, because they either don't understand, or they want it all for themselves and their chosen bretheren!!
Protection of ANYTHING is a shared responsibility in a free society----to do otherwise just reduces that freedom little by little, IMO. To
intentionally keep information from people makes them feel like outcasts.
Just another point of view.
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Barry A.
Select Nomad
Posts: 10007
Registered: 11-30-2003
Location: Redding, Northern CA
Member Is Offline
Mood: optimistic
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Ha!!!! David and I posted at almost precisely the same time, and no, we did not coordinate our comments.
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Roberto
Banned
Posts: 2162
Registered: 9-5-2003
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Barry A.
------as I have said before, you are, in a sense, punishing all folks (except the "elete" priviledged folks in-the-know) to control the actions of a
very minor few. This makes a lot of us just angry!! |
No, that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm just saying that making these sites available to those that do not wish to go to the trouble of finding
them is the problem. These are not elites in any way, what makes you say that? This all seems like common sense to me, but maybe not. It's the same as
saying that those who do not have to work hard for things tend to have less appreciation for them.
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64859
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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One of the best publicized sites, close to Hwy. 1, visited a lot and very colorful have not been damaged (Cataviña)... The next one that is also not
damaged and is well known, you can drive right to it is Montevideo, off the San Borja road...
So, I think publicity & exposure helps based on these two examples... yes?
Barry is a former BLM and park service ranger, so if my logic doesn't make sense to you... his should.
It is the lesser known, hard to get to sites that are actually in the most perrill... So, lets all go there, enjoy them, keep vandals guessing if they
will be caught by surprise Nomad visitors!
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Barry A.
Select Nomad
Posts: 10007
Registered: 11-30-2003
Location: Redding, Northern CA
Member Is Offline
Mood: optimistic
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Roberto
| Quote: | Originally posted by Barry A.
------as I have said before, you are, in a sense, punishing all folks (except the "elete" priviledged folks in-the-know) to control the actions of a
very minor few. This makes a lot of us just angry!! |
No, that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm just saying that making these sites available to those that do not wish to go to the trouble of finding
them is the problem. These are not elites in any way, what makes you say that? This all seems like common sense to me, but maybe not. It's the same as
saying that those who do not have to work hard for things tend to have less appreciation for them. |
Roberto-----I do appreciate your point of view, and from what you write you do seem very sincere. I just philosophically disagree. To see most of
the "sites" in the Baja wilds is going to take some effort by folks, and thereby it is not "easy" to get there, I am thinking. For many, simply going
to Baja takes a special type of person that appreciates what he or she is seeing, I believe (hopefully?).
My "eletist" reference is to the minority of folks that want to close roads; delete many roads from newly published maps; delete many references to
points-of-interest, historical and archeaological sites; seal up or bury old mine shafts; remove and obliterate historical buildings and ruins
because they are "attractive nuisances" and/or "eyesores"; and generally discourage and prohibit folks from going out and enjoying all the public
lands have to offer. Many of these "close everything" people are really not interested in going out there themselves, and some just want to
"preserve" sites forever so that they and their selected friends can go see them undisturbed and seldom visited (like the Sierra Club). I call these
folks "eletists", tho most do mean well.
My family and I were members of the Sierra Club for many years back in the 50's and 60's, but we left the club because of their unreasonable stands,
and poorly thoughout positions on many things, in our opinion. Some restrictions are unfortunately necessary, but lots of them are overkill and
damaging, and do little more than just anger people. When in doubt I favor trusting people to act responsibly, and if they don't then HAMMER them,
and I mean HAMMER! For those few sites and areas of such significance that to lose them would alter our total knowledge and education, then yes by
all means protect them in any way possible. There are very few sites in that category.
In my area here in Redding, CA , the BLM and Forest Service has closed up so much that there is very little for the Rangers to patrol and protect,
leaving them ample time to sit at their desks doing paper work-------and yes, I am exagerating a little, but not much. I think it is appalling!!
I agree with David on most of the sites in the Baja wilds.
Barry
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Roberto
Banned
Posts: 2162
Registered: 9-5-2003
Member Is Offline
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Barry, I kind of figured that's what you were referring to. This is another subject, let's keep the two apart.
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Barry A.
Select Nomad
Posts: 10007
Registered: 11-30-2003
Location: Redding, Northern CA
Member Is Offline
Mood: optimistic
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Roberto
Barry, I kind of figured that's what you were referring to. This is another subject, let's keep the two apart. |
I must be thick as I fail to see the "difference", but I agree that we have beaten this horse to death.
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64859
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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Is the horse dead yet?
| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
One of the best publicized sites, close to Hwy. 1, visited a lot and very colorful have not been damaged (Cataviña)... The next one that is also not
damaged and is well known, you can drive right to it is Montevideo, off the San Borja road...
So, I think publicity & exposure helps based on these two examples... yes?
Barry is a former BLM and park service ranger, so if my logic doesn't make sense to you... his should.
It is the lesser known, hard to get to sites that are actually in the most perrill... So, lets all go there, enjoy them, keep vandals guessing if they
will be caught by surprise Nomad visitors! |
No reply to this, I see?? Have a nice Sunday, Roberto...
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BAJACAT
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 2902
Registered: 11-21-2005
Location: NATIONAL CITY, CA
Member Is Offline
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Does PETA know about this, dead Horse..
BAJA IS WHAT YOU WANTED TO BE, FUN,DANGEROUS,INCREDIBLE, REMOTE, EXOTIC..JUST GO AND HAVE FUN.....
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Roberto
Banned
Posts: 2162
Registered: 9-5-2003
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
No reply to this, I see?? |
David, do you have a point with that comment? I totally disagree with you, and Barry, so what? And, I have a life, so i had other things to do besides
discuss this with you. What a concept. You should try that, sometime?
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Barry A.
Select Nomad
Posts: 10007
Registered: 11-30-2003
Location: Redding, Northern CA
Member Is Offline
Mood: optimistic
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Cat-------Probably not, but don't be giving out the coordinates less somebody surfing the net find it and kill it, or worse, put a fence around it.
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