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Don Alley
Super Nomad
Posts: 1997
Registered: 12-4-2003
Location: Loreto
Member Is Offline
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1961
First thing I did upon arriving on my first trip to the Sea of Cortez was head for the water. There was a short concrete pier, and from it I could see
fish! Many fish, many kinds of fish, and some really big ones, at least they seemed big to my 10 year old eyes.
Two Mexican men came down onto the pier. One unwound a long marlin leader, you know, the old wire leaders with a blue plastic covering we used to use
for marlin. With a huge hook on the end. The other man unwrapped a fish over a foot long, and in answer to my English and gesture said "lisa." He cut
the "lisa" in half, put half on the huge hook and the other man swung the bait out into the water. In less than a minute, he pulled in this big fish,
bigger than any fish I had yet to catch. "Cabrilla," one of the men said. Then they left, their evening meal in hand.
Over the next week, we fished every day, alternating offshore for marlin and inshore for cabrilla, pargo and ladyfish. Those days we had no live bait
or modern offshore lures; we fished dead flyingfish on outriggers for marlin and inshore trolled lures, mostly chrome Spoofers, a lure long out of
production. The three of us each caught a striped marlin each offshore day, the smallest 165 lbs. Inshore, cabrilla, pargo. All consistent with the
many stories and photographs my dad and his brother had collected over the years.
Seven years fishing Loreto and I have never, ever had a single day of fishing for cabrilla as good as any of those days fishing inshore, despite
Rapalas, Yozuris and live bait tanks.
Those days have set my "baseline" for fishing in the SOC.
One of the biggest problems in arresting declines in fish populations is "shifting baselines." Despite a decline in gamefish populations, the newer
generation of fishers (or observers) sees the new low population numbers as the norm. So, for example, I have seen new to Loreto anglers return from a
day on a chartered panga describe the fishing as "great" because one of them caught a 25lb yellowtail. They are unaware that once they could each have
expected to catch five of them, close to town. And if fishermen say the fishing is good, then management remains static.
It is also illogical and unscientific to describe a one or two day snapshot as the norm for the area, and, in the way Skeet puts it, surprisingly rude
coming from a man I consider a gentleman.
There is a larger audience than just Baja Nomad regulars here. We are addressing real problems with the possibility of real change, and irresponsible
babble does not help.
Finally, I have heard that the park was interested in the removal of the nets, and at least on Isla Carmen fish camp is gone. Possible progress.
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Capt. George
Super Nomad
Posts: 2129
Registered: 8-21-2003
Member Is Offline
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Sometimes reality is a hard thing to accept.
I too, occasionally live in the past, but have learned to accept the unpleasantries and reality of today.
Some people never will, God Bless Them All, says Tiny Tim.
\"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men\" Plato
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Skeet/Loreto
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4709
Registered: 9-2-2003
Member Is Offline
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Reality:
Yes, when I strap myself into my Airplane, I realize that I had better have a Co-Pilot- God.
When I love my Wife, I realize that Time is short, so try to make the Best of It.
When my Children dicuss our many great times on the Sea of Cortez, they know the
Truth.
The also know the False Prophets; Liberal Proffessors, Sierra Club, Al Gore, The Scramento Bee"s False Story about the Sea of Cortez, the many that
lack Knowledge about the Sea who spread their False Stories all in a Hopes of bringing People to Their Cause such as the Rev. Wright, Howard Dean,
Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Russ Limbaugh and Others.
On May the 17th I will be 77 years old,knowing that i did not have to "Lie, Cheat not Steal, to have a good Life. as a Faithful Human Being, serving
my Neighbors as Alderman, taking care of my small Rancho knowing that the Sea of Cortz will always be the best Place in the World forever.
Skeet/Of the Sea
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Capt. George
Super Nomad
Posts: 2129
Registered: 8-21-2003
Member Is Offline
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Happy Birthday
"lie, cheat nor steal" to have a good life?....I doubt there are any Nomads that have had to do any of those things to lead the lives they are now
leading. You suprise me Skeet.
What does any of the above have to do with the simple fact of declining fish stocks? That is a reality of "today".
\"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men\" Plato
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Russ
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6742
Registered: 7-4-2004
Location: Punta Chivato
Member Is Offline
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I had to wait a day to respond to the Skeet Post I'm really shocked by his
abrasive attitude. I'm very surprised by his findings. I hope his post was to get some kind of response from us and is enjoying this.
My first trip down the Baja was the summer of '68, I was 17. I have similar memories to those of Don Alleys'. After that I only played in the North
until I returned to Baja Sur in '92 and saw a huge decline in the inshore fisheries. I move down here full time in '94 and have watched the inshore
and off shore fisheries rapidly decline overall. The pongeros are mostly using nets now here. Where before they could make a living with their hand
lines. My fish take is also way down per trip. I say "per trip" because in the last few years I'm on the water a lot less. However I do fish from the
shore a lot and those numbers are down drastically!
I'd like to see some more responses from the avid fishermen that experience the good and bad days on a regular bases.
[Edited on 5-10-2008 by Russ]
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vandenberg
Elite Nomad
Posts: 5118
Registered: 6-21-2005
Location: Nopolo
Member Is Offline
Mood: mellow
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Skeet,
You are in dire need of a pulpit and join the " mumbo-Jumbo " circuit. 
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Skipjack Joe
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8084
Registered: 7-12-2004
Location: Bahia Asuncion
Member Is Offline
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Ray Cannon writes of a time when, up to early 60's probably, when most pangueros rowed their pangas out to their favorite reefs and fished dropline.
The vagabundos sailed from island to island. I am sure that the popularity and usage of the outboard motor, together with the big nets, made a huge
contribution to the decline of the fish numbers.
Though I am convinced of the drop in the fish number (duh) I'd like to play the devil's advocate and relate an experience that made me think.
We were camping at Tripui and would regularly fish from the escondido pier in the evenings to pass the time away. Virtually nobody caught anything off
that pier any more and it was a way to pass the evening hours enjoying the night sky and small talk. There was a school of sardinas beneath and I've
always enjoyed diving in their midst (see Bondy's pictures for this amazing experience). So, Alex and I smorkeled and I tried to teach him to swim
with fins. Eventually I started to explore and tried to swim to the bottom of the pilings. What I saw amazed me. Huge leopard grouper, I mean close to
10 lbs, were everywhere. I remember chasing several golden groupers to get a closer look. Sure they were attracted by the sardinas and probably aren't
around very often. But nobody 15 feet over my head had an inkling of their presence and would never have guessed based upon fishing results.
So there you go, Skeet! You owe me one. I felt bad for dragging you into this 'hot topic'.
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Capt. George
Super Nomad
Posts: 2129
Registered: 8-21-2003
Member Is Offline
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I think the decline of fish is worldwide.
Just the huge increase in population has been enough to downsize the stocks. Couple with all the technological advances, fish don't stand much of a
chance...
GPS/Color sounders/plotters...just for the average Joe, the electronics on draggers etc. is staggering...
On my little boat I can return to a spot in the middle of nowhere within a few feet..remember land ranges, compass/time course etc.??
some change
\"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men\" Plato
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Cypress
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7641
Registered: 3-12-2006
Location: on the bayou
Member Is Offline
Mood: undecided
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Capt. George is right! All the modern electronics enable fisherman to pin-point reefs, wrecks and anything else that fish will congregate around. Regarding all of "what's his names" rants about how great the fishing is in
Baja in the Sea of Cortes and the various left-wing groups, I'd join 'em in a minute as a dues-paying, card-carrying member if they could restore the
fiheries to what they were 40 yrs. ago.
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Skeet/Loreto
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4709
Registered: 9-2-2003
Member Is Offline
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If you will all go back to 1948 when the Shark Liver sales were Fantastic. All the small strips along the Sea were built for the Transport of the
Livers to the States. Millions of shark were killed just for their Liver.
Yet there are still many Shark in the Sea!
On 1970 I caught 30 Lb Yellows from the Beach at San Nicholas, then the Netters came in and took out the Sierra by the Tons and the Yellows moved out
to Deep Water.
Yet the yellows were around San Nicholas last month in the Thousands.
Prior to the Park around Loreto the Shrimp Boats were a Nightly Occurance. They were stopped several years back.
Yet there are Millions of Shrimp out in Loreto Bay. Just put over a Trap somenite about 700 Feet Down and see what you get.
during the Eighty's there would be 80 Pangas with Tourist Fisherman going for bait around Coronado Island and then to Yellows, everybody was catch
fish>
Then During the Ninetys the Squid Fishermaon came for Three of those years and took out Millions of Giant Squid.
Yet the Squid are still there.
Yes there has been declines of a certain kind of Fish over the years but they always come back.
Might it not be that the Present Day Fisherman who depends on his Fancy Boat with all the Fancy Gadgets has not the Ability to turn aside from his
Electronic Gear and learn the Habits and Locations and Times of the Fishing Habits.
I think so.
From all the False Statements being Spread on this Board, in the Media, the Books I was thinking "Could it Happen"? then on my recent fishing Trip I
observed just the Opposite!
The Sharks , the Bait, The yellowtail, The Birds, The Barracuda, The Sardines, there in the Millons and People still Whining, Moaning that the Sea
has no Fish.
Come on You socalled Fisherman, Go take a Look, Go beyond the Park Limit, go North or South, go out to Mercerious Reef{35 Miles on a 030 Degrees out
of Loreto},,South of Catalana to Las Animas, North to Delefonso, Sta. Tersa, Pulpito.
Go and Fish, leave those Fancy Depthfinders behind and learn to use your Brains and Eyes.
Skeet/Of the Sea
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Pescador
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3587
Registered: 10-17-2002
Location: Baja California Sur
Member Is Offline
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Skeet is probably right that the liberal press has overplayed the harvest of fish issue which is more of a political issue than a carefully managed
resource. When California had the stupidity to close off major areas of recreational fishing to restore broodstocks seemed more of a knee jerk
reaction than sound fisheries management. But for anyone to think that the fish levels are the same as they were in the 70's and 80's only means that
they are seeing what they want to see rather than actually seeing what is going on. I, too, am overwhelmed when I get into a large school of
yellowtail and begin thinking that with the thousands of fish I am observing that there must be an unlimited supply of fish, but I am young enough to
remember just how many schools of fish I would observe in a days time and it was literally too many to count. Now Cabrilla are a whole different
animal and it takes a long time for these fish to grow and populate. We have a man who winters at San Lucas Cove who is a bit of an expert of catching
inshore Cabrilla and this year was the worst he has ever recorded. With that being experienced, I know that the fish stocks are only a small
percentage of what they were even as recently as 10 years ago both for yellowtail and cabrilla but I readily admit that there are a lot of fish
swimming around in the sea and since I am out there almost every day, I do see a lot of fish, so no it is not decimated and no one is implying that
but the populations are way down.
Now the squid issue is interesting and experts think that since we have killed off a signifcant portion of the predators like yellowtail and sharks,
that the squid are going through a population explosion. That seems to fit with my experiences and observations and we see lessening of the baitstock
populations which the squid can clean out in very short order.
Finally, we see a real comback of certain species in the east cape area even though the fishing pressure is higher than it has ever been before
because they have taken a no tolerance position in regards to nets. It is virtually impossible to decimate a population of fish with rod and reel or
handline due to the fact that out of 100 fish only 4 or 5 are usually willing to eat or feed at any given time but with effecient netting I have
observed whole schools of fish wrapped up and killed in short order.
Now with all this said, we have a major problem because Mexico has chosen to not do anything about this issue. Even the National Park has been very
lax in enforcing netting laws and a couple of years back they told the people who were raising hell about that issue to back off and let them run the
park. Where I live in the Santa Rosalia area, there is absolutely zero enforcement and I suspect things are getting worse since we are getting
netters from as far away as La Paz.
So, yes there are still a lot of fish in the sea, but make no mistake that they are not at the same level as they were even 5 years ago.
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Cypress
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7641
Registered: 3-12-2006
Location: on the bayou
Member Is Offline
Mood: undecided
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When Pescador speaks about fishing in the Sea of Cortez, HEAR HIM! He lives there
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Santiago
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3512
Registered: 8-27-2003
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Don Alley
1961
First thing I did upon arriving on my first trip to the Sea of Cortez was head for the water. There was a short concrete pier, and from it I could see
fish! Many fish, many kinds of fish, and some really big ones, at least they seemed big to my 10 year old eyes.
Two Mexican men came down onto the pier. One unwound a long marlin leader, you know, the old wire leaders with a blue plastic covering we used to use
for marlin. With a huge hook on the end. The other man unwrapped a fish over a foot long, and in answer to my English and gesture said "lisa." He cut
the "lisa" in half, put half on the huge hook and the other man swung the bait out into the water. In less than a minute, he pulled in this big fish,
bigger than any fish I had yet to catch. "Cabrilla," one of the men said. Then they left, their evening meal in hand.
Over the next week, we fished every day, alternating offshore for marlin and inshore for cabrilla, pargo and ladyfish. Those days we had no live bait
or modern offshore lures; we fished dead flyingfish on outriggers for marlin and inshore trolled lures, mostly chrome Spoofers, a lure long out of
production. The three of us each caught a striped marlin each offshore day, the smallest 165 lbs. Inshore, cabrilla, pargo. All consistent with the
many stories and photographs my dad and his brother had collected over the years.
Seven years fishing Loreto and I have never, ever had a single day of fishing for cabrilla as good as any of those days fishing inshore, despite
Rapalas, Yozuris and live bait tanks.
Those days have set my "baseline" for fishing in the SOC.
One of the biggest problems in arresting declines in fish populations is "shifting baselines." Despite a decline in gamefish populations, the newer
generation of fishers (or observers) sees the new low population numbers as the norm. So, for example, I have seen new to Loreto anglers return from a
day on a chartered panga describe the fishing as "great" because one of them caught a 25lb yellowtail. They are unaware that once they could each have
expected to catch five of them, close to town. And if fishermen say the fishing is good, then management remains static.
It is also illogical and unscientific to describe a one or two day snapshot as the norm for the area, and, in the way Skeet puts it, surprisingly rude
coming from a man I consider a gentleman.
There is a larger audience than just Baja Nomad regulars here. We are addressing real problems with the possibility of real change, and irresponsible
babble does not help.
Finally, I have heard that the park was interested in the removal of the nets, and at least on Isla Carmen fish camp is gone. Possible progress.
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This is one of the most reasoned, well written posts I have read in a long, long time. Recently I moved Mr Alley up to #4 on my personal list of
all-time great posts on the strength of a similar, well reasoned and written post but now I'm in a huge quandry: the top three positions are
currently held by those who are no longer with us and I'm loath to demote one out of simple respect. I'm wondering, Mr Alley, how you're feeling
these days.....
edit for spelling
[Edited on 5-11-2008 by Santiago]
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Skeet/Loreto
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4709
Registered: 9-2-2003
Member Is Offline
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Very Well said and Truthfull Pescador.
From all of my time on the Sea I have observed the decline and then the comeback of many Fish.
I am limited to the Areas from Los Dolores on the South to Chivato on the North.
I think maybe the Golden Cabrilla have taken their Herds away from the San Carlos Area, maybe they finally figured it out.
While on the Trip to Mulege there were many boils of Amberjack of a Good Size. That I had never seen previously.
Talking to my Mexicano Fisherman they told of the masses of Yellow tail coming in at first light for the Masses of Bait, In the past 8 years I have
never seen it as it was last Month. It was very much as it was 20 and 30 years ago..
I can remember the Japanese Boat that was sucking up the Fiosh in a 5 Ft. Diameter Tube, the longlingers, the locals with nets, the Handliners, the
Sports Fishers but with my own eeyes and heart know that there are large amounts of Fish , right now in the Sea of Cortez.
Just think about all of the words of those who watched the Longliners across the bottom of the Sea who Proclaimed that it would ruin the Sea of
Cortez.. It has Not done that!!
Might it be that Baja Sur is facing another "7 year Drought?
Might it be that the masses of Fish now will stay for a couple of years then retreat to places Unknown to us.??
In 1970 coming across the Ferry I saw a Mile of Yellowtail on top of the Water, last Month off of Teresa I saw 3/4 Mile of seperate schools of
Yellowtail Feeding.
The Sea of Cortez shall Survive !
Skeet/Of the Sea
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Don Alley
Super Nomad
Posts: 1997
Registered: 12-4-2003
Location: Loreto
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
Come on You socalled Fisherman, Go take a Look, Go beyond the Park Limit, go North or South, go out to Mercerious Reef{35 Miles on a 030 Degrees out
of Loreto},,South of Catalana to Las Animas, North to Delefonso, Sta. Tersa, Pulpito.
Skeet/Of the Sea |
 :
I just got back. Went to Almejas, Pulpito, Isla Ildefonso, San Bruno Reef... with Capitan Rigo Davis, and my neighbor Jose Luis, who is a nephew of
your friend Alvaro Murillo. One yellowtail hooked and lost between the three of us, but three cabrilla and one huachinango. Whoopee, it's the good old
days!
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tehag
Super Nomad
Posts: 1248
Registered: 1-8-2005
Member Is Offline
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nets etc
I'd like to hear more about the 5' Japanese tubes and 700 foot deep shrimp traps.
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Capt. George
Super Nomad
Posts: 2129
Registered: 8-21-2003
Member Is Offline
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Don, you were obviously in the wrong place with the wrong people. I think if you take all your fancy electronics, blindfold yourself, use only
handlines, your catch ratio will increase tremendously..
100 miles round trip, 1 jurel (almost) 3 cabrilla and 1 hoochy-coochy. There are so many fish still in the Sea you could walk on them...You just need
to go further, there out there, WAY OUT THERE!!
Even in Abreojos, the pangueros, when I first got there, went out no further then ten miles, their now going thirty for less fish ....But even they have those Fancy Dan Fishfinders and GPS.....if they would just
go back to using their noses and sniff the fish out, all would be peaches and
cream again.
\"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men\" Plato
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Skeet/Loreto
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4709
Registered: 9-2-2003
Member Is Offline
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Tehag:
Several years back the Japanese were given Permits to Fish the Cortez. The ships were using 5 Ft. Dia. Tubes to suck up the Fish. They were to take
only Bottom type Fish.
With their Holds Full they started to Leave and were Stopped and all of the Catch was taken and sent to Mexico City. It contained a large amount of
Dorado, Yellowtail, Marlin, Saifish, Cabrilla.
They have never been Back.
Shrimpers drug the Bay of Loreto for many years, at times we would stop by them and buy a Large Bag of Shrimp for $2.00, Then the Park came and the
Shrimpers left.
There are many spots in the Bay where with a little effort you can find "Goobs' of Shrimp. Don't get Caught.or they will take your Boat.
Don Alley: Did you fish Pt. Lobos at "First Light" ??? If you did not the Yellows had already filled up and gone back out to deep Water.
Go see Alex up in Mulege, or get in Touch with Alvaro Murillo, have him take you to Delefonso Island, spend the Nite and start fishing at First Lite,
then come back and give a Report. If you are leaving the Marina at 6 or 6:30 you are already to Late!!
Skeet/ of the Sea
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backninedan
Senior Nomad
Posts: 865
Registered: 3-8-2003
Location: Loreto
Member Is Offline
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Yah Don, whats wrong with you?? Sleeping in til 5 AM? Get a guide, leave at noon, spend a day or two. Your fish count will be up to two maybe
three jurel!!!!
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Don Alley
Super Nomad
Posts: 1997
Registered: 12-4-2003
Location: Loreto
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by backninedan
Yah Don, whats wrong with you?? Sleeping in til 5 AM? Get a guide, leave at noon, spend a day or two. Your fish count will be up to two maybe
three jurel!!!! |
I'm selling my center console. The day of the center console in Baja is done. I need something with a cabin, galley and home theater for those three
day trips to the places in the SOC where there are no fishermen and/or fish camps.
Why hire a guide when I can have a live aboard captain?
Fishing is great, you just have to be more flexible. I hear there's a great bite for dogtooth tuna near Guam; I'll post a report when I get back.
Play the Game
[Edited on 5-11-2008 by Don Alley]
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