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Wiles
Nomad
Posts: 337
Registered: 10-1-2006
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Seems to me he just dislikes the same thing most of us dislike.
The ugly tourist.
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64723
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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Yah, and I have seen the 'ugly tourist' who throw their trash about and leave dirty diapers on the beach... and I don't say a thing to them when I see
it, because in all cases, it was 'their country' that they were trashing and as a foreignor I would be out of place.  
40 years ago, Americans didn't do a very good job of hauling out trash either... It takes education and desire... and thinking about the future
generations, too.
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fishbuck
Banned
Posts: 5318
Registered: 8-31-2006
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"Its usually the tourist that want the lowest prices that want the most service, and who will say the most stuff if they dont get it. The same type of
person that wants a 3 dollar discount on a 15 DOLLAR blanket. "Tell the senyor that I will give him 12...."
"One of the main problems I have encountered over the years is that there is a majority of tourists who think that barganing down the prices is the
"Mexican Way". I would like to submit that this is the "Tourist Way". I dont know of any mexicans that try and jack their paisanos out of 3 dollars of
profit. Its the tourists who come down and think that everything should be a bargin because its Mexico. People think that by going down to Baja and
buying stuff at a super low price is a helpfull thing. The truth is that tourism can also be just as harmfull to areas as helpfull. Paying for goods
or services from a vendor and not allowing them to make enough profit to take care of their families has been the standard operating procedures for
tourists for too long."
How to Barter for Goods in a Mexican Market
By eHow Travel Editor
Rate: (1 Ratings)
Mexico has a long been known as a great place to make a deal on local goods. Markets exist in every city and those cities frequented by tourists are
an opportunity for variable pricing being set by the vendor. Shopkeepers will do their best to get the most for their goods and many get what they
ask, and for the patient among the shopping crowd there is an opportunity to have some fun while paying less.
************************************************
In San Felipe there is a street that has muscled itself up for tourism. Mar de Cortez Norte is a corridor of commerce, a gauntlet through which, on a
good day (during Spring Break, for example), a passage is rarely achieved without the casualties of at least a few pesos. There are just too many
eye-catching baubles, wherever you turn.
Shopping in San Felipe is best done on foot. It's a small town and the tourist industry thrives at its heart. The north end of Mar de Cortez offers
most of the shops. But if you walk the length of the road, you will find some interesting things at the south end as well.
Some shops don't mind if you want to haggle over the price of something. Others stick to their prices. Sidewalk vendores and itinerant jewelry
salesmen expect you to barter a bit. There's usually a large markup and you'll make their day if you surrender to the first price they name. Prices
are often based on how you look or behave. Many shops now have price tags on their wares, but some still do not. It's a good idea to shop around for
the item you want. Prices can vary quite a bit within a fifty foot distance.
There are many "Segundos" or 2nd hand stores. Often they are just piles of merchandise strewn on the sidewalk or street side. Haggling at these places
is a duty, just like at any garage sale. The secret is to pretend you don't care if you own the object or not. Offers and counteroffers are exchanged
with cool heads. It helps if you occasionally throw up your arms and begin to walk away. Chances are good the vendor will call you back and give you a
lower price. If you walk away again, he may ask you what you want to pay. Tell him a price about half of what he wants. He'll make a face like a
lemonade salesman and complain he'll lose money at that price. And then he'll name another price. Again with the arms and the slow retreat.
The goal should be to pay a little above half the original asking price. Usually the halfway mark is the vendor's lowest limit. Getting a little bit
more keeps him happy and makes you satisfied you've driven a good bargain. Of course everything depends on the vendor's disposition. This may work one
day for you and fail miserably the next.
[Edited on 7-10-2008 by fishbuck]
"A ship in harbor is safe, but that is not what ships are built for." J. A. Shedd.
A clever person solves a problem. A wise person avoids it. – Albert Einstein
"Life's a Beach... and then you Fly!" Fishbuck
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Diver
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4729
Registered: 11-15-2004
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Wiles
Seems to me he just dislikes the same thing most of us dislike.
The ugly tourist. |
He just seems to want to blame all the problems on the tourists.
Have you ever been to La Ventana or the Concepcion beached after a locals' festival ??
It's not just ugly tourists that litter !!
And we don't really care who throws trash on our property; we still clean it up !!
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Don Alley
Super Nomad
Posts: 1997
Registered: 12-4-2003
Location: Loreto
Member Is Offline
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Fishing is getting expensive.
I read many posts from sport fishermen concerned with the rising costs of the sport in a time of falling values in home equity, stocks, and the value
of the dollar. Daily party boats, long range trips out of San Diego, private boat trips, they are all going up. And in Baja, there are the rising
prices (and lower availability) of airline tickets to contend with.
So I am not surprised at a few raised eyebrows at panga charters hitting $400, especially when very few have reached or surpassed the $300 level.
What does surprise me is the response, alleging that those of us paying less (the Loreto pangeros I use charge $190) are fishing with captains who
live in "one room shacks," and implications that we don't tip, or that perhaps their boats (24-25 footers with four stroke engines) are just so
inferior, and held together with JB weld. And the implication that these poor, downtrodden people need a gringo savior to bring them fair wages.
I think there's a lot of territory between the proposed $400 charters and these crude stereotypes of impoverished pangeros and selfish gringos.
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woody with a view
PITA Nomad
Posts: 15939
Registered: 11-8-2004
Location: Looking at the Coronado Islands
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Mood: Everchangin'
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it's probably me, but doesn't the mexican fisherman go fishing to feed his family and/or give the excess to friends and/or sell the excess? now if a
gringo comes along and wants to pay to go fishing for the day doesn't the mexican fisherman still get to fish for his share of the fish?
i guess there are fishermen and businessmen and it seems the two are never the same.....
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beercan
Senior Nomad
Posts: 670
Registered: 4-3-2005
Location: North of da Bear
Member Is Offline
Mood: happy to be in Baja
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Everyone has their opinion--
But I live in Puertecitos and it aint no dump.
Diver has it right , 'cause I've seen the results of the "locals" and it isn't pretty. They manage to leave about twice as much garbage as the
"gingos" !
Clara has a regular cleanup and it keeps her people busy !
| Quote: | By Diver
He just seems to want to blame all the problems on the tourists. Have you ever been to La Ventana or the Concepcion beached after a locals' festival
?? It's not just ugly tourists that litter !! And we don't really care who throws trash on our property; we still clean it up !!
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* libs, all about choice until you choose different
* B. Hussein Obama - an Empty Suit for Empty Minds.
* Annoy a liberal - Work hard and be happy!
* Arguing facts & truth to libs is like bringing a warm smile to a gun fight.
* Lets win the War on Terror
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beercan
Senior Nomad
Posts: 670
Registered: 4-3-2005
Location: North of da Bear
Member Is Offline
Mood: happy to be in Baja
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goat , you're eating too much of your dung !!
get back on your meds that the Vet gave you.
I know Dale , and he has worked hard to get this business rolling .
| Quote: | by goats
Dale, You really don't like some of your customers, do you?. When you take a disliking to your customers, do you throw them to the sharks?  You sound like a gringo, and your company cars have CA plates -- but you said you
were a mexican biz. ?? How/why do you do transport in Mexico w/o mex vehicles and mexican drivers,... taxi and bus drivers in cities will eat you for
lunch when they find out.
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* libs, all about choice until you choose different
* B. Hussein Obama - an Empty Suit for Empty Minds.
* Annoy a liberal - Work hard and be happy!
* Arguing facts & truth to libs is like bringing a warm smile to a gun fight.
* Lets win the War on Terror
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gonetobaja
Nomad
Posts: 286
Registered: 1-4-2004
Member Is Offline
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Good morning everyone!
A couple of quick points.
Diver,
I dont hate the Nomads, I have no hatred for anyone.
To me a tourist is someone that comes from another place and "visits" your place. They do not need to be "Gringos" If you saw how much trash after
Semana Santa on the beach you would agree with me that there are people that visit places with respect, and those that feel that visiting a place
gives them the right to trash it because the are going to leave in a couple of days. I dont appreciate those types of people no matter where they are
from.
Fishbuck,
I read your article that you posted. I am speculating, but the person who wrote it may have been looking at writing some exciting travel information
and went with the norm because that person had no insight as to what the deal really is. Can you imagine the reaciton of the editor if they would
have wrote......
"Mexico is an economicaly depressed country. In some areas tourism is the sole income of a family. Try and pay more than they ask or the full price
and you will be helping out a family that does not have the opportunity in the USA that you do. Paying the full price is honorable and the amount of
extra money you spend is not really that much...."
As far as the idea that families are waiting for a "gringo" to save them, well I dont think so, but If help is offered in the form of good wages,
prices, or a gift of thanks, not pity, it can be well recieved.
I dont just talk about this stuff guys. Here is a link to a spearfishing tournement that I have every year. This year we decided to use the procededs
to pay for building materials for my partners house. My partner Naty has been helping out tourists by saving them for years. He has resuced moto
bike guys with broken ribs from the hills, and fishermen from the sea. his thanks? sometimes the rescued person has no money and there is no reward
for the fuel and time used. his thanks is knowing that he is a good person and can sleep at night. We decided to thank him for his help.
http://spearboard.com/showthread.php?t=65757&highlight=p...
This is the link so you guys understand I dont just talk about paying full price and helping out my friends, I really do it. This is not a bunch of
words.
Try going over the top to help out a person that you know needs it. Short of loosing the extra dough, you will find that you can only gain. Take the
look on the vendors face when you give him a 20 for a 15 dollar trinket home in your mind. When you go back (if you do) dont be surprised if the
vendor remembers you and greets you with a smile.
Bringing down gifts of food, clothes, tools, etc is great, but you must remember just like your family, the baja families run into the same
emergencies. Broken cars, medical bills, school fees, etc. can only be fixed with MONEY.
I can only do my small part to act and change what I can, but through this board the idea of helping out just a little more can be spread over a large
area.
My dream?
A tourist goes camping on a beach somewhere, he first checks to see if its ok by the owner and gives him 15 bucks just because (I know the beach is
free, but access is not). Then the camper spends a few great days on the beach, pays the campo security (the dude who lives in a shack trying to sell
you firewood) 5 bucks for firewood. They leave with all of their trash in the back of their truck and head into town and get a few trinkes and pay
the full price......Then in the border line they by a plaster spongebob and pay full price for that.
If everyone did that it would make a difference. 100,000 tourists or more per weekend in Baja. 10 bucks extra from each one would add up quick.
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64723
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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Dale, what's your take on using dollars in Baja... Some here on Nomad state very clearly that using dollars will either get you ripped off (because
often the exchange rate is slightly favored for the vendor) or is disrespectful because it is Mexico and pesos are the national money???
I use dollars because I know it gives vendors a little extra (like a tip) and I see locals buying goods in small towns using dollars as much as
pesos... so how disrespectful could it be?
Thanks for your posts on Nomad!
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gonetobaja
Nomad
Posts: 286
Registered: 1-4-2004
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
Dale, what's your take on using dollars in Baja... Some here on Nomad state very clearly that using dollars will either get you ripped off (because
often the exchange rate is slightly favored for the vendor) or is disrespectful because it is Mexico and pesos are the national money???
I use dollars because I know it gives vendors a little extra (like a tip) and I see locals buying goods in small towns using dollars as much as
pesos... so how disrespectful could it be?
Thanks for your posts on Nomad! |
David,
It depends on your terms of "Ripped off"
As you know the peso is 10 to 1 or thereabouts. If a person is worried about getting shorted on the exchange rate that always changes then that
person should take the extra time, and fuel to locate and exchange the currency for pesos. As far as disrespect goes, IMHO it is more disrespectfull
to go over to the vendor who is sitting in the heat and try to grind them down off of 3 or 4 dollars of profit. From my experience no one cares how
you pay as long as you do. The problem comes if you only have USA dollars and the vendor has no USA change. Then you go back to the 10 pesos to a
dollar ratio. If you loose a few cents in the exchange, chalk it up to the vendor being a muilit currency taking entity. I have never had a vendor
not take dollars. I have held up a 20 dollar bill and they shook their head "no" to me. I asked them what was the problem and they said that they
could not take my money because they had no change in american money. When I told them I didnt care and that pesos for change was fine there was no
problem.
If you think about it, the fact that a vendor will take both currencies is pretty cool. Try going to a mall in the USA and give them a 500 pesos
bill.
Calexico takes pesos though!
My feeling is that the whole "dissrespect" thing stems from the frustration of the vendor who is trying to make a living. I can see the senario where
a vendor has been haggled down on price to where he is making only a couple of bucks. Then his buyer pulls out dollars and then wants to make sure he
gets the exact exchange rate he saw on the side of a building driving through the border. The poor vendor is now in a position to have to calculate
another price according to the current exchange rate and deduct the "loss" out of his profit that is already low. He speaks very little english so he
cant explain to the customer that the price was based on dollars and now that they want the exchange rate the price will be different. Rather than go
through the hassle, the vendor looks at the tourist with dismay, hands him the money, takes his lumps and shakes his head as the buyer walks away....
"Whats wrong with that vendor Jerry?"
"Im not sure Norma, he seems to be a little peeed off when I wanted him to give me the proper change. I hope that guy realized he is dealing with a
seasoned traveler, Im not gonna get ripped off"
"Maybe next time we should use pesos and he wont be so offended...."
"Yea, you gotta be carefull these street vendors will rip you off if you give them a chance...that guy was just mad that he couldnt screw me for the
exchange difference, I tell ya Norma, you got to watch out for these guys. Good thing for us I know what Im doing..."
David, I have seen your posts for years and you are one of the most respectfull baja travelers I know of. As you understand, respect comes in many
forms, the least of which is payment types. If people are concerned about how they are treating or being percieved by the locals they should pay more
attention to their actions up to the time of sale, not the actual payment.
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shari
Select Nomad
Posts: 13043
Registered: 3-10-2006
Location: bahia asuncion, baja sur
Member Is Offline
Mood: there is no reality except the one contained within us "Herman Hesse"
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David...using dollars is totally fine but just don't haggle over the exchange rate...I sure respect our visitors who just take it at 10-1 par....no
diddling...no complaining...yes we'll take your dollars if you want but just don't whine about a few cents of exchange. This is the kind of thing Dale
is trying to explain...it behooves people here how tourists arrive in big fancy rigs with bulging wallets and then cry over a few pennies of exchange
or worse yet....spout off how they got RIPPED OFF...pallllleeeeeaaaassssseee! I am always so impressed when our clients tip someone or give a sida to
a kid or the garbage man...tell the gas guy to keep the change...it makes me smile and does a world of good for the tourist "image" in our village.
But I am always humiliated and embarrased when they try to barter for things....even is stores where prices are fixed...or whine that they got ripped
off when actually they make a mistake on the money. The store here will change your $ for 10.30...higher exchange rate than the bank...so I always
tell people if they want to haggle over exchange rate at other stores, gas, lodging, restaurants....just go change their money.
I also want to publically commend Dale for helping out his partner. Not everyone would do that...so he is putting his earned $ to a very good use.
Bravo amigo.
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64723
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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Thank you Dale!
See you at Playa Escondida sometime!
Baja Angel has never been to the Puertecitos hot springs, so I will have to show her one of these trips to Shell Island and perhaps check out your
place?
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64723
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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Shari, that's how I see it, too...
Nomads are going to Baja on a vacation!!! People in Baja that sell to Nomads are trying to earn a living!!!
If you are wealthy enough to take a vacation... have an RV... drive hundreds of miles from your home to enjoy a different place, then you CAN afford
to use dollars at a 10:1 rate or leave a tip to the gas attendant, etc.
Shari, you know how Elizabeth and I travel and deal with the locals... We are there to enjoy ourselves and at the same time leave a positive memory...
and through my trip reports and web page building, try and promote the cool places in Baja to visit!
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fishbuck
Banned
Posts: 5318
Registered: 8-31-2006
Member Is Offline
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I posted the little article about bartering because I was curious of it's origin.
I believe it really is a mexican custom. But it is a thing that some "visitors" or "guests" in mexico find appealing. And fun.
If mexicans find it distasteful it certainly isn't documented. Except by Dale and Shari. Not true mexicans, sorry.
I used to feel like I was getting nickeled and dimed in Baja. But I don't worry about it as much now. I pay in both pesos and dollars and use my
credit card too. But I probably buy less too. Esentials only.
I looked into exchanging dollars but with the little commission they get it doesn't save much and really isn't worth the time.
Dale, you must think all americans are rich. I wish that were true. I scrimp and save and work overtime to make my little trips. I stay in the
cheapest place I can find that is tolerable and eat alot of 1 dollar tacos.
I look for the cheapest panga that will get me to the fish. No frills. And I like it that way too. Me, my fishing rod and a fish. That's all that
really matters.
The alternative is no trip.
I can't afford to give money away. If you want my pesos you must earn them by providing me with a TANGABLE benefit. In the exchange I hope you are
able to make a living. But that is your business. Mine is to get the best value for my dollar.
That is capitalism.
I never give money away. But if the little kid at the border entertains me with his juggleing act for a minute I give him some pesos. He earned it.
And when his even littler buddy throws a single or two balls up in an attempt to juggle I give him a few. He learned by watching that if you work you
get paid.
Nobody gives me free money.
So if you don't Like bartering that's fine. But if I don't go fishing with you and later you see me in the panga "JB WELD" catching fish maybe you
will feel differently.
Consider it a form of silent bartering.
And for the record on my last trip I brought home all my trash except when I stay at a hotel I might throw some of the locally bought (beer cans)
trash in the waste can in the room. But anything I bring across I bring home.
Tourists are people that ride big buses and go to museums and stuff.
But they way you say it Dale it sounds like a swear word. But if a drunk ahole peed all over my boat I might swear a little too.
Maybe since he paid $400/day he felt like he bought that boat so he could pee on it if he wanted to.
"A ship in harbor is safe, but that is not what ships are built for." J. A. Shedd.
A clever person solves a problem. A wise person avoids it. – Albert Einstein
"Life's a Beach... and then you Fly!" Fishbuck
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DianaT
Select Nomad
Posts: 10020
Registered: 12-17-2004
Member Is Offline
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It always baffles me when the subject of pricing and bartering in Mexico comes up. Maybe I am missing something, but it seems real simple to me.
Prices for like fishing---set prices for what services are offered---more services, higher the price. If the price is too high, customers will go
elsewhere. Tips for good service always a good idea. Bartering --- yea, also a valid thing.
It is when things are expected and and not made clear where problems can happen, IMHO. While it may to others, mystery pricing does not make sense to
me. Also, I would think one would be very careful about sliding scales---word gets out that certain gringos are charged more because it appears they
have more money, it could be bad for anyone's business.
Price, of course depends on area, equipment, etc., but when it is set, if the service is NOT used, then it is overpriced.
Bartering---it just amazes me when someone says that Mexicans are offended by gringos who barter. Maybe it is a local thing. I know here we find
extremely few times when we are inclined to barter. Even with the open market secundas---if we are quoted a price that is really out of line, we just
walk away.
However, on the mainland, bartering is expected in MANY situations. We have also been told over and over again by Mexicans that when a gringo does
not barter in those situations, the Mexican vendor just think they are stupid.
Now, with the peso getting stronger and the dollar falling, it may be that soon most gringos will jump at 10 to 1.
I wish everyone well with their Baja business ventures, but IMHO, the gringo bashing will keep some away.
Diane
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Diver
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4729
Registered: 11-15-2004
Member Is Offline
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When our favorite vendor shows up at El Requeson as he has each day, every year we have been there, and he says " Today is a good day to buy. Today is
so cheap it's almost free; tomorrow will cost more ! This blanket is $20 US but how much you want to pay ?"
Is he not inviting a conversation on price (barter) ?
He would think us stupid if we didn't barter.
He calls my wife the "tough one" but smiles when he leaves, every time she buys.
Since I first visited Mexico (Mazatlan) in the '60s, it has always been this way with the vendors.
Or Fransico, who runs the campground at El Requeson, who is always amazed that we remember his childrens' ages and ask about them and bring them gifts
even though we rarely see them since they are old enough for school (they live in Mulege with mom).
When they closed Santispec and a pick-up load of pre-constructed palapa walls and roofs appeared at his door, he was thrilled and refused our money
for camping for a week.
Bartering can be a really good thing for all; even the unspoken barter !
Now, if I go into a machanics shop in La Paz, I just ask the price and shop around for the best price for competent service; no bartering.
I guess it depends who you are dealing with and what the situation.
PS I always pick up my trash in Baja as I do elsewhere - gringo basher 
Also, my normal "Baja" mindset does not allow me to concern myself with such small issues as the exchange rate on our usual purchases. I normally feel
like everyone in Baja is part of my "good" feeling when I am there (and when I'm here) and the ALL deserve a tip !! 
Thank you !
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Cypress
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7641
Registered: 3-12-2006
Location: on the bayou
Member Is Offline
Mood: undecided
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Don't know anyone that is in favor of leaving garbage all over the place. That's a
nasty habit! As far as giving $10 to $20 above and beyond the set price? Go for it!That'll put you in the rich and dumb gringo catagory.
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Diver
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4729
Registered: 11-15-2004
Member Is Offline
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Not rich; not dumb; just generous and happy to be there !
Who said $10 or $20 ??
I'm not talking Pemex fill-ups; I'm talking beach blankets and things.
Maybe a few dollars at most.
If that makes me "dumb" in your mind than so be it !!
But what does that say about you ??
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shari
Select Nomad
Posts: 13043
Registered: 3-10-2006
Location: bahia asuncion, baja sur
Member Is Offline
Mood: there is no reality except the one contained within us "Herman Hesse"
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I don't think the concept of sliding scale is understood by all...at least MY idea of what sliding scale is. For example, a good pal like bajaboy is
here at his home..he's been a very good friend for years...now if Juan wants to go out fishing with him...well, bboy pays for the gas and maybe some
beer and it's all cool. We have set prices but if we choose to give a discount or lower the price or trade services for lures or gear, well, gosh...I
think it's OK to do that...I do not mean up the price for rich gringos!!!! I mean maybe help out the less fortunate catch a fish....or rent a room for
cheaper in exchange for some weeding or a painting whatever...it works for us and I dont think it's offensive or detrimental to our business. We LOVE
our clients(usually) and try to make eveyone happy one way or another. We also think outside the box and like to be creative in our business
practises.
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