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fdt
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Location: Tijuana, Baja California
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I do get it and I am not for illegal immigrants i've never said that. As for all posts beeing bad it's just recently seems to be the trend with a
bunch of newbies with an agenda but I guess it will pass. I have always reported here when there is trouble and what to avoid and yes there are people
that go across and get a free education without the proper paperwork, they even get financial aid and more. I just insist that it is not the majority.
I think it's a few only.
A well informed Baja California traveler is a smart Baja California traveler!
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thebajarunner
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Why would this increase taxes?
| Quote: | Originally posted by 805gregg
Just give them all ss# and tax them. |
If they have no SS#, or it is not a legal number, then they have no ability to collect benefits.
If they work for cash, then the employer cannot deduct the payments, and thus he is burdened with paying a greater income tax.
The taxation and benefits aspects of the illegal worker are quite skewed in favor of the U.S. government, and most "honest" analyses of this situation
bear this out.
Hard for most to admit, but still true.
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Barry A.
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Runner--------I would be very interested in your sources of any of the info you just stated---------that is contrary to what I have been told by the
media and other sources.
Please tell me what your sources are.
Barry
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thebajarunner
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Barry, from NYTimes
Illegal Immigrants Are Bolstering Social Security With Billions
NEW YORK TIMES
By EDUARDO PORTER
April 5, 2005
[Front Page]
STOCKTON, Calif. - Since illegally crossing the Mexican border into the United States six years ago, Ángel Martínez has done backbreaking work,
harvesting asparagus, pruning grapevines and picking the ripe fruit. More recently, he has also washed trucks, often working as much as 70 hours a
week, earning $8.50 to $12.75 an hour.
Not surprisingly, Mr. Martínez, 28, has not given much thought to Social Security's long-term financial problems. But Mr. Martínez - who comes from
the state of Oaxaca in southern Mexico and hiked for two days through the desert to enter the United States near Tecate, some 20 miles east of Tijuana
- contributes more than most Americans to the solvency of the nation's public retirement system.
Last year, Mr. Martínez paid about $2,000 toward Social Security and $450 for Medicare through payroll taxes withheld from his wages. Yet unlike most
Americans, who will receive some form of a public pension in retirement and will be eligible for Medicare as soon as they turn 65, Mr. Martínez is not
entitled to benefits.
He belongs to a big club. As the debate over Social Security heats up, the estimated seven million or so illegal immigrant workers in the United
States are now providing the system with a subsidy of as much as $7 billion a year.
While it has been evident for years that illegal immigrants pay a variety of taxes, the extent of their contributions to Social Security is striking:
the money added up to about 10 percent of last year's surplus - the difference between what the system currently receives in payroll taxes and what it
doles out in pension benefits. Moreover, the money paid by illegal workers and their employers is factored into all the Social Security
Administration's projections.
Illegal immigration, Marcelo Suárez-Orozco, co-director of immigration studies at New York University, noted sardonically, could provide "the fastest
way to shore up the long-term finances of Social Security."
It is impossible to know exactly how many illegal immigrant workers pay taxes. But according to specialists, most of them do. Since 1986, when the
Immigration Reform and Control Act set penalties for employers who knowingly hire illegal immigrants, most such workers have been forced to buy fake
ID's to get a job.
Currently available for about $150 on street corners in just about any immigrant neighborhood in California, a typical fake ID package includes a
green card and a Social Security card. It provides cover for employers, who, if asked, can plausibly assert that they believe all their workers are
legal. It also means that workers must be paid by the book - with payroll tax deductions.
IRCA, as the immigration act is known, did little to deter employers from hiring illegal immigrants or to discourage them from working. But for Social
Security's finances, it was a great piece of legislation.
Starting in the late 1980's, the Social Security Administration received a flood of W-2 earnings reports with incorrect - sometimes simply fictitious
- Social Security numbers. It stashed them in what it calls the "earnings suspense file" in the hope that someday it would figure out whom they
belonged to.
The file has been mushrooming ever since: $189 billion worth of wages ended up recorded in the suspense file over the 1990's, two and a half times the
amount of the 1980's.
In the current decade, the file is growing, on average, by more than $50 billion a year, generating $6 billion to $7 billion in Social Security tax
revenue and about $1.5 billion in Medicare taxes.
In 2002 alone, the last year with figures released by the Social Security Administration, nine million W-2's with incorrect Social Security numbers
landed in the suspense file, accounting for $56 billion in earnings, or about 1.5 percent of total reported wages.
Social Security officials do not know what fraction of the suspense file corresponds to the earnings of illegal immigrants. But they suspect that the
portion is significant.
"Our assumption is that about three-quarters of other-than-legal immigrants pay payroll taxes," said Stephen C. Goss, Social Security's chief actuary,
using the agency's term for illegal immigration.
Other researchers say illegal immigrants are the main contributors to the suspense file. "Illegal immigrants account for the vast majority of the
suspense file," said Nick Theodore, the director of the Center for Urban Economic Development at the University of Illinois at Chicago. "Especially
its growth over the 1990's, as more and more undocumented immigrants entered the work force."
Using data from the Census Bureau's current population survey, Steven Camarota, director of research at the Center for Immigration Studies, an
advocacy group in Washington that favors more limits on immigration, estimated that 3.8 million households headed by illegal immigrants generated $6.4
billion in Social Security taxes in 2002.
A comparative handful of former illegal immigrant workers who have obtained legal residence have been able to accredit their previous earnings to
their new legal Social Security numbers. Mr. Camarota is among those opposed to granting a broad amnesty to illegal immigrants, arguing that, among
other things, they might claim Social Security benefits and put further financial stress on the system.
The mismatched W-2's fit like a glove on illegal immigrants' known geographic distribution and the patchwork of jobs they typically hold. An audit
found that more than half of the 100 employers filing the most earnings reports with false Social Security numbers from 1997 through 2001 came from
just three states: California, Texas and Illinois. According to an analysis by the Government Accountability Office, about 17 percent of the
businesses with inaccurate W-2's were restaurants, 10 percent were construction companies and 7 percent were farm operations.
Most immigration helps Social Security's finances, because new immigrants tend to be of working age and contribute more than they take from the
system. A simulation by Social Security's actuaries found that if net immigration ran at 1.3 million a year instead of the 900,000 in their central
assumption, the system's 75-year funding gap would narrow to 1.67 percent of total payroll, from 1.92 percent - savings that come out to half a
trillion dollars, valued in today's money.
Illegal immigrants help even more because they will never collect benefits. According to Mr. Goss, without the flow of payroll taxes from wages in the
suspense file, the system's long-term funding hole over 75 years would be 10 percent deeper.
Yet to immigrants, the lack of retirement benefits is just part of the package of hardship they took on when they decided to make the trek north.
Tying vines in a vineyard some 30 miles north of Stockton, Florencio Tapia, 20, from Guerrero, along Mexico's Pacific coast, has no idea what the
money being withheld from his paycheck is for. "I haven't asked," Mr. Tapia said.
For illegal immigrants, Social Security numbers are simply a tool needed to work on this side of the border. Retirement does not enter the picture.
"There will be a moment when I won't be able to continue working," Mr. Martínez acknowledges. "But that's many years off."
Mario Avalos, a naturalized Nicaraguan immigrant who prepares income tax returns for many workers in the area, including immigrants without legal
papers, observes that many older workers return home to Mexico. "Among my clients," he said, "I can't recall anybody over 60 without papers."
No doubt most illegal immigrants would prefer to avoid Social Security altogether. As part of its efforts to properly assign the growing pile of
unassigned wages, Social Security sends about 130,000 letters a year to employers with large numbers of mismatched pay statements.
Though not an intended consequence of these so-called no-match letters, in many cases employers who get them dismiss the workers affected. Or the
workers - fearing that immigration authorities might be on their trail - just leave.
Last February, for instance, discrepancies in Social Security numbers put an end to the job of Minerva Ortega, 25, from Zacatecas, in northern Mexico,
who worked in the cheese department at a warehouse for Mike Campbell & Associates, a distributor for Trader Joe's, a popular discount food
retailer with a large operation in California.
The company asked dozens of workers to prove that they had cleared up or were in the process of clearing up the "discrepancy between the information
on our payroll related to your employment and the S.S.A.'s records." Most could not.
Ms. Ortega said about 150 workers lost their jobs. In a statement, Mike Campbell said that it did not fire any of the workers, but Robert Camarena, a
company official, acknowledged that many left.
Ms. Ortega is now looking for work again. She does not want to go back to the fields, so she is holding out for a better-paid factory job. Whatever
work she finds, though, she intends to go on the payroll with the same Social Security number she has now, a number that will not jibe with federal
records.
With this number, she will continue paying taxes. Last year she paid about $1,200 in Social Security taxes, matched by her employer, on an income of
$19,000.
She will never see the money again, she realizes, but at least she will have a job in the United States.
"I don't pay much attention," Ms. Ortega said. "I know I don't get any benefit."
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mtgoat666
Select Nomad
Posts: 18428
Registered: 9-16-2006
Location: San Diego
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| Quote: | Originally posted by thebajarunner
Illegal Immigrants Are Bolstering Social Security With Billions
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Likewise, immigrants pay sales taxes and contribute to property taxes thru payments to landlords.
ultimately, all gringos benefit, as they get cheap labor and the underpaid workers are paying taxes. i doubt that their ocasional use of social
services is a bigger burden than economic benefits realized by gringos.
the xenophobes don't like to admit this 
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rts551
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6699
Registered: 9-5-2003
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LL
I always enjioy your posts and have never found you to be "out there". But $250 a month???? quiet a deal isn't it for a US citizen? and for a
good education as well. I wouldn't complain to much
| Quote: | Originally posted by lizard lips
The only thing you got right out of your entire tired post was the fact that children k through 12 in school here in Mexico do receive an excellent
education. My son is in the tenth grade now, wears a uniform and I think is properly educated but I pay $250.00 per month for this to happen. I will
not send him to a public school full of cholos...
Oh, I am a US citizen and drive a Baja plated car.
You and everyone in Mexico is not being picked on----It's just that you DON'T GET IT AND NEVER WILL MY FRIEND..... |
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thebajarunner
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3718
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Location: Arizona....."Free at last from crumbling Cali
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Barry, this one is much more powerful
hope you can open it,
it is 35 pages, pdf, but you only need to read the summary
http://www.hacer-mn.org/downloads/English_Reports/EconomicIm...
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bancoduo
Banned
Posts: 1003
Registered: 10-3-2005
Location: el carcel publico mazatlan sin.
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GOAT666
Why were you fired from URS. You seem really angry. I heard you almost went postal in your little box (cubical). 
Us XENOBHOBES need to know.
[Edited on 7-14-2008 by bancoduo]
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lizard lips
Super Nomad
Posts: 1468
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: EARTH
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| Quote: | Originally posted by rts551
LL
I always enjioy your posts and have never found you to be "out there". But $250 a month???? quiet a deal isn't it for a US citizen? and for a
good education as well. I wouldn't complain to much
| Quote: | Originally posted by lizard lips
The only thing you got right out of your entire tired post was the fact that children k through 12 in school here in Mexico do receive an excellent
education. My son is in the
tenth grade now, wears a uniform and I think is properly educated but I pay $250.00 per month for this to happen. I will not send him to a public
school full of cholos...
Oh, I am a US citizen and drive a Baja plated car.
You and everyone in Mexico is not being picked on----It's just that you DON'T GET IT AND NEVER WILL MY FRIEND..... |
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rts, Ask my wife----I complain about everything! and fdt----Sorry, I got off on a rant and didn't in any way want you to think I was pickin on you
with the GET IT statement. I would really like you to address this matter on your radio program and see what kind of response you get.
Even though I am an American citizen I have probably seen more of Mexico than 99% of you and have great Mexican friends all over the country. I have
worked in every state in Mexico and have been back to most of these several times. I have first hand seen different cities recently come alive with
new businesses and an influx of a common middle class than I ever seen before. With all of the new opportunities available in Mexico for it citizens I
really think that eventually there will not be close to as many illegal crossings as there have been in the past. The country of Mexico is on a
mission to improve what has been lacking for several generations and Im not talking about Cabo or places like Cancun. The city of Saltillo, just south
of Monterrey has literally put a new face on. I couldn't believe it when I was there a few weeks ago. The new businesses I saw were very impressive
and the same is true for Augascalient, Zacatecas, Durango. I could go on and on but eventually Mexico will improve so much that there will be
opportunities for "EVERYONE" and not just people that were born into money as it has been. You really don't see it as much here in Baja as you do in
the interior. Kids here in Mexico after high school most all go directly to college and get a degree. It is common place now as it really was not
available that much in the past. Universities in Mexico City, Monterrey, and Guadalajara are as good or better than they are in the states. The
colleges here in Ensenada are great schools. Ok, my wife just said dinner is ready so I must stop this rant now. I hope al of you can actually visit
the interior of Mexico and really see what is happening. Im impressed.........
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Barry A.
Select Nomad
Posts: 10007
Registered: 11-30-2003
Location: Redding, Northern CA
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Mood: optimistic
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Lizard----------I pray that you are right-------I have been waiting a long time for this to happen, and have become discouraged lately-------your
upbeat appraisail is good to hear. I do hope you are correct, and the trend continues. It is so good to hear from people that are actually "living"
it.
Barry
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movinguy
Nomad
Posts: 257
Registered: 3-19-2004
Location: Chula Vista, CA and Tijuana, MX
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| Quote: | Originally posted by fdt
I must jump in here. Everytime mexicans are the talk to some or most here, it's something bad and I have to forgive you because you just talk
generalizing. I wont call you all ignorant but the fact is that you ignore many things. I attended college in San Diego and along with me several,
many other Tijuana residents and it was Southwestern College. What you people that are generalizing ignore is that we paid foreign student tuition,
yes we paid to attend and it was a lot of money, we never got it free or took advantage of "your system" and I'm very proud of it. Later I went on to
travel school and also paid tuition, so what if I had mexican plates, what does that have to do with the price of tea in China?
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There are also lots of upper-class Mexicans in TJ who cross to send their kids to private k-12 school in San Diego - more than you might think . . .
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805gregg
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| Quote: | Originally posted by bajalou
Just about like drugs, eliminate the demand - drug users/employers and there is no need for drug smugglers/illegal workers. |
You are obviously not an employer, doesn't work that way.
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Taco de Baja
Super Nomad
Posts: 1913
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Location: Behind the Orange Curtain, CA
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Mood: Dreamin' of Baja
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| Quote: | Originally posted by mtgoat666
| Quote: | Originally posted by thebajarunner
Illegal Immigrants Are Bolstering Social Security With Billions
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Likewise, immigrants pay sales taxes and contribute to property taxes thru payments to landlords.
ultimately, all gringos benefit, as they get cheap labor and the underpaid workers are paying taxes. i doubt that their ocasional use of social
services is a bigger burden than economic benefits realized by gringos.
the xenophobes don't like to admit this |
All I can say, goat, is I hope an illegal steals your SS#. What is it again? 666-66-6666?
Identity theft, alone negates any benefits, as the typical victim has to spend $1,000's to prove they really did not earn $20,000 working in a
chicken plant in Illinois, all while residing in Oregon....not to mention all the other costs to the victim and the business community, associated
with ONLY the identity fraud.
The illegal supporters always “forget” about these costs.
| Quote: | A Grand Jury in Florida estimates the average cost for the business community for each episode of identity theft is $17,000
per victim. (Over $11.9 billion dollars a year)
The costs to federal agencies are enormous. Per identity theft case, the cost to the U.S. office of Attorneys is $11,443, and per financial crime
investigation is $15-20,000.
Victims of identity theft spend, on average, over 175 hours of their time working to clear their name.
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Link
| Quote: | Average Cost of ID Theft Per Victim is $31,356
Finally, a report that looks much more accurate with regard to how much identity theft costs the VICTIMS of a privacy breach. Most reported victim
costs that I have seen in the past seemed much too low considering all the time that victims talked about trying to repair and recover from identity
theft, and how much resources it took, the many years it often takes, and so on.
An InformationWeek article, "Identity Theft: Costs More, Tech Less" reports, "the median actual dollar loss for identity theft victims was $31,356."
Much higher than the $740 - $5,720 ranges per victim that other researchers have typically cited. |
Link
Truth generally lies in the coordination of antagonistic opinions
-Herbert Spencer
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thebajarunner
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3718
Registered: 9-8-2003
Location: Arizona....."Free at last from crumbling Cali
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How in the world did you get this far off track?
Quote Taco de Baja...
"All I can say, goat, is I hope an illegal steals your SS#. What is it again? 666-66-6666?"
Now I have heard it all!!!
"Illegals" (your word, by the way) engaged in identity theft?
Man, what will they do next?
Take over Fort Knox....
Steal all our nukes warheads????
I have heard a lot of complaints against undocumented people,
stealing identity theft is not one of them...
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mtgoat666
Select Nomad
Posts: 18428
Registered: 9-16-2006
Location: San Diego
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Taco de Baja
| Quote: | Originally posted by mtgoat666
| Quote: | Originally posted by thebajarunner
Illegal Immigrants Are Bolstering Social Security With Billions
|
Likewise, immigrants pay sales taxes and contribute to property taxes thru payments to landlords.
ultimately, all gringos benefit, as they get cheap labor and the underpaid workers are paying taxes. i doubt that their ocasional use of social
services is a bigger burden than economic benefits realized by gringos.
the xenophobes don't like to admit this |
All I can say, goat, is I hope an illegal steals your SS#. What is it again? 666-66-6666?
Identity theft, alone negates any benefits, as the typical victim has to spend $1,000's to prove they really did not earn $20,000 working in a
chicken plant in Illinois, all while residing in Oregon....not to mention all the other costs to the victim and the business community, associated
with ONLY the identity fraud.
The illegal supporters always “forget” about these costs.
| Quote: | A Grand Jury in Florida estimates the average cost for the business community for each episode of identity theft is $17,000
per victim. (Over $11.9 billion dollars a year)
The costs to federal agencies are enormous. Per identity theft case, the cost to the U.S. office of Attorneys is $11,443, and per financial crime
investigation is $15-20,000.
Victims of identity theft spend, on average, over 175 hours of their time working to clear their name.
|
Link
| Quote: | Average Cost of ID Theft Per Victim is $31,356
Finally, a report that looks much more accurate with regard to how much identity theft costs the VICTIMS of a privacy breach. Most reported victim
costs that I have seen in the past seemed much too low considering all the time that victims talked about trying to repair and recover from identity
theft, and how much resources it took, the many years it often takes, and so on.
An InformationWeek article, "Identity Theft: Costs More, Tech Less" reports, "the median actual dollar loss for identity theft victims was $31,356."
Much higher than the $740 - $5,720 ranges per victim that other researchers have typically cited. |
Link |
whoa! taco, you old people are easily confused!
the "costly" identity theft you refer to is about people obtaining fraudulent credit.
the identity theft of immigrants borrowing SS#s to obtain work generally has nothing to do with illegally obtaining credit.
taco, someday there will be a cure for your senile dementia. until then, soldier on!
[Edited on 7-14-2008 by mtgoat666]
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bajaguy
Elite Nomad
Posts: 9247
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Location: Carson City, NV/Ensenada - Baja Country Club
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Mood: must be 5 O'clock somewhere in Baja
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Goat:
ILLEGAL immigrants do not "borrow" SS numbers, they STEAL them. It is a crime.
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Barry A.
Select Nomad
Posts: 10007
Registered: 11-30-2003
Location: Redding, Northern CA
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Mood: optimistic
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Runner--------I did not see this article (your response to me) or the other one, until this morning-------yes, they are powerful information.
Someone said that we anti-illegal immigrant folks would not admit that this was happening----heck, I had NO IDEA that this was happening!! I can
honestly say that this was the first time I have seen an authoritive article on the subject of illegals contribution to the "system".
That info does mitigate my position, I admit, but of course I am still very concerned about the "illegal" aspects of these folks, and the impacts they
are having on hospitals and other USA "services"-------in other words the moneys they are contributing to USA systems don't seem to be compensating
the people and institutions that are impacted most. That is a problem.
I remain skeptical, but your provided information and sources were a big plus, in my mind, to your point of view.
Thank you. Education is ALWAYS the answer (and I thought I WAS educated-------pretty funny)
Barry
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thebajarunner
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3718
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Location: Arizona....."Free at last from crumbling Cali
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Barry- thank you for your gracious response
Sometimes we tend to blow and go on this board (well, more than sometimes) and it is refreshing to get new info, to get a new spin on things, and best
of all to admit it.
I will only admit to one thing..... it is always tough for me to admit to anything (hope that makes sense- I know what I mean)
Meanwhile, those who are outraged by "stolen SS#'s"
Wish they would steal my number and use it, it would build up even more in my account and that poor devil would never be able to claim benefits.
"Please, please, don't toss me back in the blackberry patch" Uncle Remus.....
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fdt
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4059
Registered: 9-7-2003
Location: Tijuana, Baja California
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Mood: Yeah, what if it all goes right
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| Quote: | Originally posted by movinguy
There are also lots of upper-class Mexicans in TJ who cross to send their kids to private k-12 school in San Diego - more than you might think . . .
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Yes I know but those are private schools and they have to pay. I know of a few people that live in San Diego and send theire kids to school in
Tijuana, go figure.
A well informed Baja California traveler is a smart Baja California traveler!
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woody with a view
PITA Nomad
Posts: 15939
Registered: 11-8-2004
Location: Looking at the Coronado Islands
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Mood: Everchangin'
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| Quote: |
Meanwhile, those who are outraged by "stolen SS#'s"
Wish they would steal my number and use it, it would build up even more in my account and that poor devil would never be able to claim benefits.
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what you mean is you'd be overjoyed to be audited and happily explain tens of thousands of dollars (if you are lucky enough to be used by just one
ILLEGAL and your number isn't passed around by a group of them) of unreported income on your income taxes!
sounds great to me too! have fun with that.....
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