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Packoderm
Super Nomad
Posts: 2116
Registered: 11-7-2002
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Or does it have to be in Spanish? If that is the case, I'll need some help with the translation.
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Packoderm
Super Nomad
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DK, to tell you the truth, I think it's a "thrill of the hunt" sort of thing really.
But really, the reason I called it "The Baja California peninsula" was so that I could put "The" in front of "Baja" and get away with it.
[Edited on 11/21/2003 by Packoderm]
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64845
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
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Mood: Have Baja Fever
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Packoderm adds 'the' to Baja ...
That's so you wouldn't be mistaken for a Canadian, eh? What a hoser you are! Heading south to the Baja, eh? It's aboot time, I say! Don't forget the
backbacon and your touque, eh!
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academicanarchist
Senior Nomad
Posts: 978
Registered: 9-7-2003
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Speedy Gonzalez
It's a shame that SG decided that he had to leave, but I viewed his position as being out of line. As I posted earlier, I think it totally
unreasonable to expect casual visitors to Baja California or Mexico to be familiar with the historical literature written by Mexican historians. As a
published historian, I do know of the works of people like Ignacio del Rio, one individual that SG mentioned by name. At the same time, if he chids
gringos for not knowing Mexican historians, he should be equally familiar with what historians on this side of the border have written, something he
apparently is unwilling to do. A bit of a hypocritical double standard to my way of thinking. What he implied is that only Mexican historians know the
history of Mexico. My story about the Mexicanist conference was to make a point he missed or more probably chose to ignore. Academics on both sides of
the border routinely get together to converse, and are not hung up with the type of mentality evidence by our friend SG.
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aldosalato
Nomad
Posts: 183
Registered: 10-20-2002
Location: La Paz
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Speedy do not leave
Opinion from any native Mexican is very much welcomed on the board.
Just because we disagree on something it does not mean we can learn a lot from you.
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jrbaja
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4863
Registered: 2-2-2003
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Let me spell it out for you. Again
What the gringos are doing is ignoring some relevant information that is published in Spanish. And there is a lot.
This is why I said you need to learn Spanish David because you are writing about their history.
AA, you should be very proud to have your ideas published. But, what do the Mexican people think of your writings? It sounds as if you connect with
the Mexican historians to compile your work.
What I was saying originally and Speedy was concurring politely, you are writing information knowing only half the facts and from only one side.
And a side that lied about their own history as well.
Seems to have worked really well with the gringo map books which are all wrong in many places, so I suppose that the same applies for the history of
Baja. A bunch of incomplete or wrong information being published by gringos that have only spent a few vacations in Baja and don't speaka da language
or even care what the people it's being written about think.
Very George Bush like. One day, somebodies gonna look ! That is, if he doesn't decide Mexico is concealing weapons of mass destruction,have you
sent any down here Mike?, and takes over another part of the world.
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64845
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
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Mood: Have Baja Fever
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Gringo map books?
JR, maybe I will let you buy the pastrami! The Baja Almanac http://www.baja-almanac.com and the former Baja Topo Atlas use MEXICAN government topographic maps. I have some actual Mexican made topos and the
SAME mistakes you see in the (gringo published) Almanac are in the original MEXICAN drawn maps. When the new Almanac came out, I posted a list of
errors I spotted at the time. Switching arroyo names is one thing, but switching entire bay names (S.L.Gonzaga/Ens. de S. Fran) is pretty bad. Between
San Agustin and Catavina they didn't even survey the location of the new highway, instead they just showed the old roadbed as now paved (the highway
is really 1-2 miles south to west of the old road). There are errors in many gringo books, I agree... But the gringo made map books just reproduced
Mexican made maps into handy book form. With their many mistakes, they still are best maps to use to explore the peninsula, IMHO.
Also, I write about places I visit and what I see there. If I write historic articles, I quote from or credit published authors. Mexicans I have met
and talked to don't always have all the details or facts correct and just speak of what they believe or was told. People like Harry Crosby, Peter
Gerhard, and Robert Jackson did research into the original Spanish records of the period. The people now living at a mission site may not have been
able to read those documents...
Ooops, gotta go work, bye!
[Edited on 5-25-2004 by David K]
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jrbaja
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4863
Registered: 2-2-2003
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Well ding dang darn it David
This was just starting to get interesting. I am listening to what you are saying. But, I'm leaving tomorrow and you had to go to work. I will have
forgotten all about this conversation when I get back so we'll have to start over.
Or maybe later. Have a good one Amigo.
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academicanarchist
Senior Nomad
Posts: 978
Registered: 9-7-2003
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JrBaja
I have published in a number of countries, in ENglish, Spanish, French, and Portuguese. The impression that I have is that my scholarship is respected
in Mexico. Now to the issue at hand. For a person with an avocational interest in history, I do not believe that there is an obligation to read what
has been published by Mexican historians, as you imply. That really is a personal choice.
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jrbaja
Ultra Nomad
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Registered: 2-2-2003
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Seems kind of "one sided" to me.
Personally, I prefer to know all the available information prior to making any judgements or statements. But that's just me.
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Eli
Super Nomad
Posts: 1471
Registered: 8-26-2003
Location: L.B. Baja Sur
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Mood: Some times Observing, sometimes Oblivious.
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A.A., Yes, I agree, the boarder is an artificial line, the cultures are much more merged than many realize.
I went to see an excellent play the other evening about the "Women of Troy". It was an awesome bi-cultural experience, I would give 50/50 -
Gringo/National attending. The play was a Modern American Jazz production in Spanish dialog done by local students, directed by non Spanish speaking
directors, who did a wonderful job with the kids, it really, really worked for everyone attending! Can you imagine all these local ranchero type Mom's
in the audience, Billy Holiday's "Lady sings the Blues" and modern dance and jazz presenting an all time classic social message in regard to the
suffrage of Women in relation to the violence of war. Anyway, the kids pulled it off, the directors were great, and we, the audience, all got it,
didn't matter what level of education or language skills was represented in the audience.
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bajalera
Super Nomad
Posts: 1875
Registered: 10-15-2003
Location: Santa Maria CA
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Holy Guacamole! The History and Lit Forum has finally got contentious enough to send somebody off into the sunset--just like the Off-Topic section.
Speedy opened an interesting thread--too bad he left before I got around to complaining that the private ownership implicit in his references to "mi
peninsula" offended me. Oh well . . .
Lera
\"Very few things happen at the right time, and the rest never happen at all. The conscientious historian will correct these defects.\" -
Mark Twain
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Margie
Banned
Posts: 270
Registered: 4-23-2004
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Speedy Gonzalez
I just want to add something about "Speedy's" namesake, that some of you, as Mexicans, or Mexican-Americans found offensive.
When we lived in the States, we would buy our firewood from the Mesa Grande Indians. The guy who was in charge, was nicknamed "Tanto". Finally, I had
to ask him, why do you take that name? Isn't it derogatory?
He told me he picked up the nickname while he was in the Marines. He told me he kept it, just to let the white eyes know he wasn't stupid or slow,
sort of reverse psychology. He also bore the name as a badge of honor and courage, from fighting in Korea.
The same is true of a large number of the black population who refer to themselves with the "N" word. It is their way of saying, this word is
meaningless in the context that was used to directly assault us in verbal abuse and to make us feel undignified, We embrace this insult, and use it
to our advantage to show what fools you are. They are taking a negative, and turning it into a positive.
I bet you this absolutely makes Strom Thurman and his followers cringe !
[Edited on 5-25-2004 by Margie]
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academicanarchist
Senior Nomad
Posts: 978
Registered: 9-7-2003
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Speedy Gonzalez
Baja[California]lera. SG chose to go, and I am sorry he did. He raised some interesting questions. However, I also think he brought an attitude that I
did not particularly like. BUt such is life. I hope he decides to come back.
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bajalou
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4459
Registered: 3-11-2004
Location: South of the broder
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Norte
Pac
Where is the Mexican state of "Baja California Norte"??
No Bad Days
\"Never argue with an idiot. People watching may not be able to tell the difference\"
\"The trouble with doing nothing is - how do I know when I\'m done?\"
Nomad Baja Interactive map
And in the San Felipe area - check out Valle Chico area |
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Packoderm
Super Nomad
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It is in-between the lost Mexican states of Baja California este and Baja California oeste.
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bajalera
Super Nomad
Posts: 1875
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Location: Santa Maria CA
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Margie, are you sure the guy wasn't called "TOnto"?
Lera
\"Very few things happen at the right time, and the rest never happen at all. The conscientious historian will correct these defects.\" -
Mark Twain
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thebajarunner
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3718
Registered: 9-8-2003
Location: Arizona....."Free at last from crumbling Cali
Member Is Offline
Mood: muy amable
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California confusion?!?
I guess we call if Baja California, Norte, so we don't confuse it with the Alta California which we stole fair and square and have zero intention of
returning to rightful ownership.
Also, those of us who live in the "Real California" call the state where most of you other Nomads live "Southern California" to further distinguish
your place from ours.
This Alta Cf. place is actually three separate, distinct states: Southern California, Bay Area, and all the rest of us.
So, when we have friends from the East Coast who wish to visit us we make it perfectly clear that we live in "Real California" not "Southern
California" nor "Bay Area California"
Now, if that did not confuse you then let's try again on the BCN and BCS.... those are pretty easy compared to the state of the Gringo State.
Baja Arriba!!
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