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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64852
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
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Mood: Have Baja Fever
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If they are photographed and put in books or on the Internet, then they are preserved.... IF in the future any idiot defaces them.
Idiots are not seeking them out here, Baja lovers are here. If Baja lovers cannot enjoy them in person or in photos, then what is the purpose of them?
If nobody, I mean nobody knows where they are to enjoy or learn from them then it doesn't matter if they exist or not, right? The coyotes and
rattlesnakes aren't enriched by them.
Out of respect for the wishes of others, any site told to me, and asked to not give the exact location online, I honor those wishes. There was one:
Neal Johns showed me the Las Tinajitas site near San Borja, back in 2001... If you go up and see my photos of them, there is no exact location given.
ALL the others (except Petroglyph Park, which Baja Angel and I discovered) are in books already... so someone else published them for the world to
see... and most are still untouched. Las Pintas has some modern additions, but not over any ancient ones.
I understand the concern of some of you... but I think as many Baja Nomads as possible should go to these sites, with their children and grandchildren
or at least see them online. The same is true of mission ruins and the Camino Real. INAH has been coating the adobe walls of many mission ruins with a
white plaster to prevent any further weathering... very little is left of the most of the adobe missions... thank goodness photographs of them were
taken and published, so today we can see them, as they were then.
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redhilltown
Super Nomad
Posts: 1130
Registered: 1-24-2009
Location: Long Beach, CA
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Well kudos for you if someone asks and you don't list the directions. On the other hand, "previously published" may be in books long out of print or
scarce and thus not available to the causal rock art observer. There are many easily accessible and well known rock art sites in Baja and the desert
southwest and I would bet they satisfy the needs of the people who want to visit them for the history and to share with their children.
I like others have spent hundreds if not thousands of hours scouring over the landscape looking for rock art with vague directions or no directions at
all...you see basalt and you start looking. GPS cords for any non obvious site is not doing anyone any favors. If a well published easy
site...fine...if not, let em find it on their own.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rwolf/8227572157/
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64852
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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We discovered one site (Petroglyph Park), very difficult to get to and perhaps impossible now. By showing what's out there, we create more interest in
preserving the desert for our own and our children to use. Having a strong reason to preserve it is the historic sites. The more of us who want to see
it in person, the better it will have of being preserved... Forgotten sites, unreported sites, or un-visited sites won't be missed and are 'free' for
the taking/ defacing (no witnesses).
The more popular sites, that are visited frequently have shown a great chance at survival.
Cataviņa was made known to the masses in the 1970's... and it is still untouched. Montevideo in the 1960's... still untouched... El Carmen in the
1890's... San Fernando in the 1910's... Las Pintas, 1980's, does have some modern lettering added,... a small percent compared to the area's size.
Go people, see them now see them often!
[Edited on 1-4-2013 by David K]
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salttram
Junior Nomad
Posts: 50
Registered: 9-17-2003
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
If they are photographed and put in books or on the Internet, then they are preserved.... IF in the future any idiot defaces them.
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That is just simply a false statement.
I would only share these delicate sites with people I know well and that I know have only good intentions. Folks who pinpoint locations on Google
Earth and give detailed directions to just anybody . . . well someday you might have spray paint on your hands.
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64852
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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Well, I don't have them all pinpointed on Google Earth or even GPS'd, so relax. Do you really think there are teenagers with spray paint in Ensenada,
reading Baja Nomad and looking on Google Earth for places they can drive hundreds of kilometers to, in order to spray paint them, really?
Anyway, it is true that they are already preserved if they are photographed, and we can only hope they will remain visible for people (like us) to see
them where they were made. Denying the people who love Baja from seeing them before they are lost by not saying where they are here (or in books) is
selfish IMO. What makes you or me better than anyone else that only we can enjoy them?
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mtgoat666
Select Nomad
Posts: 18380
Registered: 9-16-2006
Location: San Diego
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Mood: Hot n spicy
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
If Baja lovers cannot enjoy them in person or in photos, then what is the purpose of them? |
They have value (as antiquities) to the country, the culture and humanity regardless of whether "Baja lovers" enjoy them. One purpose: they are the
country's heritage.
| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
If nobody, I mean nobody knows where they are to enjoy or learn from them then it doesn't matter if they exist or not, right? |
the art has existed for hundreds or thousands of years, and you think that the only thing of importance is enjoyment at a single point in time, your
time. who are you to say undiscovered or unused items are worthless today? do you speak for all future (and past) generations?
| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
The coyotes and rattlesnakes aren't enriched by them. |
how do you know that? who are you to say that only humans are enriched by art or have capability to enjoy visuals? when i see my dog spend long time
gazing over a vista, i think he may be gaining enrichment; perhaps there are animals that appreciate art,... for example, why do some birds collect
shiny objects? maybe some (or all) animals have aesthetic sensibilities. you may be foolish to declare that only humans are enriched by art,...
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mtgoat666
Select Nomad
Posts: 18380
Registered: 9-16-2006
Location: San Diego
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Mood: Hot n spicy
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
Well, I don't have them all pinpointed on Google Earth or even GPS'd, so relax. Do you really think there are teenagers with spray paint in Ensenada,
reading Baja Nomad and looking on Google Earth for places they can drive hundreds of kilometers to, in order to spray paint them, really?
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i think many, many people are prone to commit vandalism (too many). not just kids commit vandalism. i see adults in their 50s and 60s commit
vandalism. because of this sad fact of human nature, places like rock art sites should not be publicized. while vandals may not be reading this
board, you don't know how information will be disseminated away from this board.
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Barry A.
Select Nomad
Posts: 10007
Registered: 11-30-2003
Location: Redding, Northern CA
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Mood: optimistic
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I speak as a long time (now retired) permanent National Park Service Ranger, as well as a Federal BLM Ranger in charge of Resource and Antiquity
protection, Interpretation, and public enjoyment of same, and I totally agree with David K., tho I realize that many disagree with me. This
controversy has been going on within the professional protection and scientific community for at least 50 years that I am personally aware of.
That's my 2-cents on the subject.
Barry
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redhilltown
Super Nomad
Posts: 1130
Registered: 1-24-2009
Location: Long Beach, CA
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Barry A.
I speak as a long time (now retired) permanent National Park Service Ranger, as well as a Federal BLM Ranger in charge of Resource and Antiquity
protection, Interpretation, and public enjoyment of same, and I totally agree with David K., tho I realize that many disagree with me. This
controversy has been going on within the professional protection and scientific community for at least 50 years that I am personally aware of.
That's my 2-cents on the subject.
Barry |
Thanks Barry for your work but as one of the "many" I'll still disagree! If accessible and well known fine...build it and they will come. If more a
more delicate and significant site, let em find it on their own...if they care and give a hoot, they will.
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Skipjack Joe
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8084
Registered: 7-12-2004
Location: Bahia Asuncion
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I just drove past the catavina area and noticed that all the graffiti on the boulders have been whitewashed to 'remove' them. The result is geometric
patches of pure white on weathered granite. It will take eons to bring it back.
I published some beautiful cave art here recently and now they are here on this thread. I've learned my lesson. Never again. Too bad for nomads. I
guess I should be grateful that GPS coordinates were not provided.
Ps. A classic dk "kick me" thread.
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Barry A.
Select Nomad
Posts: 10007
Registered: 11-30-2003
Location: Redding, Northern CA
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Mood: optimistic
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
I just drove past the catavina area and noticed that all the graffiti on the boulders have been whitewashed to 'remove' them. The result is geometric
patches of pure white on weathered granite. It will take eons to bring it back.
I published some beautiful cave art here recently and now they are here on this thread. I've learned my lesson. Never again. Too bad for nomads. I
guess I should be grateful that GPS coordinates were not provided.
Ps. A classic dk "kick me" thread. |
Hmmmmm, say what you think is right and helpful, and it is classified as a "kick me" thread???????? To me that is mysterious, speculative logic, and
does not track. Personally I am so glad that David can see thru the vindictive rhetoric and rise above it and keep posting his valuable stuff.
Barry
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tripledigitken
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4848
Registered: 9-27-2006
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
...I published some beautiful cave art here recently and now they are here on this thread. I've learned my lesson. Never again. Too bad for nomads. I
guess I should be grateful that GPS coordinates were not provided.... |
I don't understand this statement (publish), please explain. If you are talking about your photos being republished without your permission I feel
your pain!
Ken
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Bajatripper
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3148
Registered: 3-20-2010
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Good thread, David. When I have searched for the Old Road, I often rely on the dates of graffiti for verification and so have come to look at it in
less harsh terms today than I once did.
As I sit here in Washington watching the thermometer take below-freezing dips on occasion, I do miss living in La Paz, where my wife complains about
it being cold when it gets of 70 degrees. Your photos and comments bring it closer for me.
There most certainly is but one side to every story: the TRUTH. Variations of it are nothing but lies.
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64852
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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Thank you amigos...
Igor, while you were there and shared your photos (which was wonderful), it wasn't your photos that showed the world where they were... it was a book,
published in Mexico that Shari had in the Rock Room that had the same cave. I posted that book and the cave page in my July 2012 trip report as a
lead-in to finding the cave. The nearby guest ranch of Piedra Blanca has this cave pictured in their web site. There is a road to the trail-head and a
well worn path to the site. There is no secret about it as tours are taken to it. So don't 'kick yourself' for your photos and nobody kicked you.
You are on Baja Nomad to see and learn more Baja, right? Well, no photos, no descriptions would make seeing and learning a bit challenged, right?
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micah202
Super Nomad
Posts: 1615
Registered: 1-19-2011
Location: vancouver,BC
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David K
Honored Nomad
I understand the concern of some of you... but I think as many Baja Nomads as possible should go to these sites, with their children and grandchildren
or at least see them online.
........thanks David for your fine work and sharing photos of some very special sites that I can only -wish- to see in
person some day!!
[Edited on 1-6-2013 by micah202]
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64852
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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Thank you! Of interest, this thread on Nomad is nearly 3 years old... yet it brought up a fresh exchange of dialog as if it was a new post!
It is a forum... but if none of us shared, it sure would be a boring place.
Now, if we could only get Woody to disclose his secret surfing location in the Seven Sisters...    
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micah202
Super Nomad
Posts: 1615
Registered: 1-19-2011
Location: vancouver,BC
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
Thank you! Of interest, this thread on Nomad is nearly 3 years old... |
...but the subject is quite literally -timeless-!!!
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Skipjack Joe
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8084
Registered: 7-12-2004
Location: Bahia Asuncion
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
Thank you amigos...
Igor, while you were there and shared your photos (which was wonderful), it wasn't your photos that showed the world where they were... it was a book,
published in Mexico that Shari had in the Rock Room that had the same cave. I posted that book and the cave page in my July 2012 trip report as a
lead-in to finding the cave. The nearby guest ranch of Piedra Blanca has this cave pictured in their web site. There is a road to the trail-head and a
well worn path to the site. There is no secret about it as tours are taken to it. So don't 'kick yourself' for your photos and nobody kicked you.
You are on Baja Nomad to see and learn more Baja, right? Well, no photos, no descriptions would make seeing and learning a bit challenged, right?
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A.
Where do I state anywhere that I "discovered" this cave? What motivated you to write about the literature and Piedra Blanca's cave excursions? Nobody
denied any of that.
B.
You have contrived an either-or fallacy to support your actions. Either we reveal the caves or we don't want people to see their paintings. None of
that is true. Those who criticize your actions do so because they want paintings to be there for people to see, the total opposite of what you're
saying. They want some safeguard for the preservation of that art. You provide none. You place the art in harms way. The people of Piedra Blanca
provide guided tours to these sights where their clients are under their watchful eyes. Those of us who don't see things your way
would like to (a) first provide security for this sites and then (b) provide the gps coordinates. You choose to omit (a). I find that irresponsible.
You don't take a Mona Lisa and hang it in a train station so that as many people as possible can see it. I don't understand why you don't get it.
Nobody is trying to deny anyone the right to see anything.
[Edited on 1-6-2013 by Skipjack Joe]
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Barry A.
Select Nomad
Posts: 10007
Registered: 11-30-2003
Location: Redding, Northern CA
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Mood: optimistic
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It has been my experience with 30 years with the National Park Service and Bureau of Land Management that the type of security that SkipJack talks
about is generally impossible to accomplish, and even then only happens at a tiny fraction of the "sites", and renders those sites in some cases as
zoo-like, and the wonder is lost. Still, the protection-zealots sometimes prevail, the result being that 1000's of sites are almost NEVER seen by the
public. Personally I think this is a shame, and a travesty.
The same type thinking in the western Public Lands has resulted in hundreds, if not thousands, of once open and free public roads being closed to all
but the "elite"--------all because of a few knotheads that misbehaved somewhere sometime. "Punish the many for the actions of a few"-----.
THAT is "irresponsible", in my view.
Barry
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mtgoat666
Select Nomad
Posts: 18380
Registered: 9-16-2006
Location: San Diego
Member Is Offline
Mood: Hot n spicy
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Barry A.
It has been my experience with 30 years with the National Park Service and Bureau of Land Management that the type of security that SkipJack talks
about is generally impossible to accomplish, and even then only happens at a tiny fraction of the "sites", and renders those sites in some cases as
zoo-like, and the wonder is lost. Still, the protection-zealots sometimes prevail, the result being that 1000's of sites are almost NEVER seen by the
public. Personally I think this is a shame, and a travesty.
The same type thinking in the western Public Lands has resulted in hundreds, if not thousands, of once open and free public roads being closed to all
but the "elite"--------all because of a few knotheads that misbehaved somewhere sometime. "Punish the many for the actions of a few"-----.
THAT is "irresponsible", in my view.
Barry |
no one is being "punished." natural and cultural resources are simply being protected.
what is this BS about only the elite being able to access roadless areas? there are plenty of areas accessible by road. it would be silly to say
that ALL public lands should be accessible by road. there are already sufficient areas accessible by road. being fit enough to hike beyond the road
end is not an elite status, it is a normal human status.
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