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airmech
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| Quote: | Originally posted by airmech
| Quote: | Originally posted by arrowhead
| Quote: | Originally posted by airmech
What made this illegal? Last I heard officials needed probable cause to search without a warrant. |
Not when you say you are crossing the border, such as the pilot did by filing the border crossing documents. The law is different. They don't need any
cause to search you. Even if they don't know you are crossing the border and you are in a border area, they only need "reasonable suspicion" to stop
you and search you. No use complaining about it, this has already been up to the Supreme Court and the tactics have been upheld.
p.s. CPB also has the right to confiscate your computer, cell phone, etc. to exam them for as long as they want to. |
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Also there is a federal regulation 14 CFR 91.11 the prohibits anyone from interfering with a crew member in the operation of an aircraft. The FAA
says if you enter an aircraft with the intention of flying it you are operating it. This guy was in his aircraft with that intention doing a
checklist when the CBP ordered him out of the airplane for a "random check"
Both optimists and pessimists contribute to the society. The optimist invents the aeroplane, the pessimist the parachute.
— George Bernard Shaw
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CaboRon
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| Quote: | Originally posted by mulegemichael
we lost no freedoms under GWB...what the f...???i cannot believe you can honestly say that, david...are you hallucinating to that degree?..o my
gawd!...this is very scary.. |
I have to agree that David appears certifiable 
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David K
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Posts: 64852
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
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Mood: Have Baja Fever
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| Quote: | Originally posted by mulegemichael
we lost no freedoms under GWB...what the f...???i cannot believe you can honestly say that, david...are you hallucinating to that degree?..o my
gawd!...this is very scary.. |
Name 'em... I cannot think of any that I have lost. However, I am alive and I thank GWB and our troops for that!
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Bajaboy
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Posts: 4375
Registered: 10-9-2003
Location: Bahia Asuncion, BCS, Mexico
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
| Quote: | Originally posted by mulegemichael
we lost no freedoms under GWB...what the f...???i cannot believe you can honestly say that, david...are you hallucinating to that degree?..o my
gawd!...this is very scary.. |
Name 'em... I cannot think of any that I have lost. However, I am alive and I thank GWB and our troops for that! |
um...illegal wiretaps....let's see...xray scans at the airports....hmmm.....9/11 happened on GWB's watch....not blaming him but if you're saying
you're safer because of him....I'll beg to differ....
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David K
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Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
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Mood: Have Baja Fever
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajaboy
| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
| Quote: | Originally posted by mulegemichael
we lost no freedoms under GWB...what the f...???i cannot believe you can honestly say that, david...are you hallucinating to that degree?..o my
gawd!...this is very scary.. |
Name 'em... I cannot think of any that I have lost. However, I am alive and I thank GWB and our troops for that! |
um...illegal wiretaps....let's see...xray scans at the airports....hmmm.....9/11 happened on GWB's watch....not blaming him but if you're saying
you're safer because of him....I'll beg to differ.... |
I was asking Mulege Mike that question, but Zac my reply is the increasing of security measures was to save us from a repeat of 9-11.
How is an X-ray scan a freedom that you lost???
My phone wasn't wiretapped because I don't make international calls to known terrorists... was yours? Is that a "freedom" that you lost even if your
were listened to talking to terrorists?
9-11 wasn't an overnight planned event, it took years of allowing them to go unpunished... years before W. took over... Do you remember the Cole, the
first Twin Tower bombing, the Kenya attacks... Clinton was even offered Bin Ladden on a silver platter and he didn't do ANYTHING... Over 3,000
civilians are dead from the weakness of that administration.
The one and only purpose of our federal government is to protect us from force or fraud, per our constitution. We can do all else on local levels.
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capt. mike
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there is a fair and prudent balance somewhere between safety and freedoms.
the shift has gone aways from freedoms in support of increased safety.
i'd rather balance towards freedom and manage safety as reasonably as can be expected under most situations without going overboard.
the Eastern Bloc countries were all pretty safe in their bau houses.....
formerly Ordained in Rev. Ewing\'s Church by Mail - busted on tax fraud.......
Now joined L. Ron Hoover\'s church of Appliantology
\"Remember there is a big difference between kneeling down and bending over....\"
www.facebook.com/michael.l.goering |
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k-rico
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Posts: 2079
Registered: 7-10-2008
Location: Playas de Tijuana
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| Quote: | Originally posted by airmech
I have never been stopped at the border by the US officials on the US side when driving into mexico, have you? |
Yes, at San Ysidro, back in April. US officials were stopping all cars just before entering Mexico and asking questions. Some cars were getting
searched. They asked me how much money I had with me. The entrance to the border was narrowed to fewer lanes to make room for secondary searches and
southbound traffic was really backing up on the Interstate.
There were a couple cars in secondary getting taken apart.
It hasn't happened since.
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k-rico
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| Quote: | Originally posted by airmech
This is that latest with flying and I say boaters too cuz your next.
An illegal armed search by CBP of an airplane trying to depart from Long Beach airport. 3 more incidents have been reported, 2 from John Wayne. If
you don't like the Mexicans showing up with M16s wait till you hear this!
http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/PilotProtestsCustomsChe...
make sure you listen to the pod cast. |
I suspect the officials were acting upon some information that money/weapons/fugitives or? were headed to Mexico by private aircraft.
I agree with the notion that Americans demanded tighter borders and now they're getting them. Let's hope all the measures taken, walls, strict ID
requirements, searches, etc. accomplish something other than hassling the 99.99% of us that aren't breaking any laws.
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k-rico
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I just listened to the podcast and I don't understand the outrage being expressed here.
The cops had their guns drawn? Well, they had no way of knowing what the occupants of the plane would do. They were playing it safe.
They were screaming? Perhaps to make sure everyone heard them and understood.
I don't buy their explanation that it was a random check. What else are they going to say? It would be dumb for them to let out that they had some
sort of information that led to the search, especially since the explanation would end up on an Internet podcast!
Americans are getting what they asked for, more cops and tighter security.
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airmech
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| Quote: | Originally posted by k-rico
I just listened to the podcast and I don't understand the outrage being expressed here.
The cops had their guns drawn? Well, they had no way of knowing what the occupants of the plane would do. They were playing it safe.
They were screaming? Perhaps to make sure everyone heard them and understood.
I don't buy their explanation that it was a random check. What else are they going to say? It would be dumb for them to let out that they had some
sort of information that led to the search, especially since the explanation would end up on an Internet podcast!
Americans are getting what they asked for, more cops and tighter security. |
Both optimists and pessimists contribute to the society. The optimist invents the aeroplane, the pessimist the parachute.
— George Bernard Shaw
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airmech
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They knew who were in the aircraft already due to the eAPIS form. So the CBP already knew they weren't a threat. Also if you go to the www.bajabushpilot.com page there are four more letters of similar incidents at John Wayne, Long Beach and Tuscon. All these planes were LEAVING
the country. After reading the letters of the other four incidents I do not believe anyone had a "red flag" to cause this. I think maybe the head CBP
read their little manual wrong and was confused on the part that they are supposed to keep drugs and terrorists OUT of the country not in.
No contraband or people were detained at any of these raids.
CBP 0 travelers 4 so far.
If the CBP are looking for contraband why didn't they look in the turbo commander when they were flying the illegal immigrant mother to Calexico to
pick up her little boy from Mexicali because the drug runners snatched him from San Bernardino last month.
Both optimists and pessimists contribute to the society. The optimist invents the aeroplane, the pessimist the parachute.
— George Bernard Shaw
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Bajaboy
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4375
Registered: 10-9-2003
Location: Bahia Asuncion, BCS, Mexico
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajaboy
| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
| Quote: | Originally posted by mulegemichael
we lost no freedoms under GWB...what the f...???i cannot believe you can honestly say that, david...are you hallucinating to that degree?..o my
gawd!...this is very scary.. |
Name 'em... I cannot think of any that I have lost. However, I am alive and I thank GWB and our troops for that! |
um...illegal wiretaps....let's see...xray scans at the airports....hmmm.....9/11 happened on GWB's watch....not blaming him but if you're saying
you're safer because of him....I'll beg to differ.... |
I was asking Mulege Mike that question, but Zac my reply is the increasing of security measures was to save us from a repeat of 9-11.
How is an X-ray scan a freedom that you lost???
My phone wasn't wiretapped because I don't make international calls to known terrorists... was yours? Is that a "freedom" that you lost even if your
were listened to talking to terrorists?
9-11 wasn't an overnight planned event, it took years of allowing them to go unpunished... years before W. took over... Do you remember the Cole, the
first Twin Tower bombing, the Kenya attacks... Clinton was even offered Bin Ladden on a silver platter and he didn't do ANYTHING... Over 3,000
civilians are dead from the weakness of that administration.
The one and only purpose of our federal government is to protect us from force or fraud, per our constitution. We can do all else on local levels.
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David-two words: Civil liberties And by the way, the wire tapping
started before 9/11 and what do you know, a few law abiding Americans were "accidentally" affected.
I agree with Mike....are you saying that we should live in a Communist environment? Secret police? Wire tapping? Random searches I kind of sound like Glen Beck
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64852
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
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Mood: Have Baja Fever
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Well... my question again is what freedoms did YOU lose? I didn't lose any and my country wasn't attacked again.
Communism? Ha ha, that is the next step after socialism and socialism is when government takes over businesses and operates them instead of private
citizens... sound familiar? Remember Russia used to be part of the Union of Soviet SOCIALIST Republics, run by the communist party. Socialism has
FAILED everywhere it has been tried.
They really don't teach that anymore do they? Even the Europeans with all their socialism (government run businesses and services) are abandoning that
as it fails to serve anyone well and bankrupts their economy.
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k-rico
Super Nomad
Posts: 2079
Registered: 7-10-2008
Location: Playas de Tijuana
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by airmech
They knew who were in the aircraft already due to the eAPIS form. So the CBP already knew they weren't a threat. |
Just curious, how did they know that the people on the aircraft were actually the people named on the form?
And, there is always a first time. Every criminal was a law abiding citizen before becoming a criminal. Every man has his price and there's BIG money
in the drug business. John Delorean for example.
One battle front in the war on drugs is to stop the guns and drug money that are shipped to Mexico from the United States. It's a two way street,
there are criminals in both lanes and the southbound lane is the American responsibilty.
The United States probably has the most criminals if you count the dealers and users.
[Edited on 6-10-2009 by k-rico]
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mtgoat666
Select Nomad
Posts: 18385
Registered: 9-16-2006
Location: San Diego
Member Is Offline
Mood: Hot n spicy
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajaboy
| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
| Quote: | Originally posted by mulegemichael
we lost no freedoms under GWB...what the f...???i cannot believe you can honestly say that, david...are you hallucinating to that degree?..o my
gawd!...this is very scary.. |
Name 'em... I cannot think of any that I have lost. However, I am alive and I thank GWB and our troops for that! |
um...illegal wiretaps....let's see...xray scans at the airports....hmmm.....9/11 happened on GWB's watch....not blaming him but if you're saying
you're safer because of him....I'll beg to differ.... |
I was asking Mulege Mike that question, but Zac my reply is the increasing of security measures was to save us from a repeat of 9-11.
How is an X-ray scan a freedom that you lost???
My phone wasn't wiretapped because I don't make international calls to known terrorists... was yours? Is that a "freedom" that you lost even if your
were listened to talking to terrorists?
9-11 wasn't an overnight planned event, it took years of allowing them to go unpunished... years before W. took over... Do you remember the Cole, the
first Twin Tower bombing, the Kenya attacks... Clinton was even offered Bin Ladden on a silver platter and he didn't do ANYTHING... Over 3,000
civilians are dead from the weakness of that administration.
The one and only purpose of our federal government is to protect us from force or fraud, per our constitution. We can do all else on local levels.
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dk,
hitler, stalin, mccarthy and gwb had same approach to governing: big brother snooping in lives of citzens.
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64852
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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| Quote: | Originally posted by k-rico
| Quote: | Originally posted by airmech
They knew who were in the aircraft already due to the eAPIS form. So the CBP already knew they weren't a threat. |
Just curious, how did they know that the people on the aircraft were actually the people named on the form?
And, there is always a first time. Every criminal was a law abiding citizen before becoming a criminal. Every man has his price and there's BIG money
in the drug business.
One battle front in the war on drugs is to stop the guns and drug money that are shipped to Mexico from the United States. It's a two way street,
there are criminals in both lanes and the southbound lane is the American responsibilty. |
I thought the same thing....
Just because you named some passengers on the Internet form is no proof that is who was in the plane that morning. They must have gotten a tip about a
plane bound for Mexico with a cartel member on board... it just wasn't this plane!
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airmech
Nomad
Posts: 184
Registered: 9-2-2006
Location: Murrieta Ca
Member Is Offline
Mood: Expeditionary
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
| Quote: | Originally posted by k-rico
| Quote: | Originally posted by airmech
They knew who were in the aircraft already due to the eAPIS form. So the CBP already knew they weren't a threat. |
Just curious, how did they know that the people on the aircraft were actually the people named on the form?
And, there is always a first time. Every criminal was a law abiding citizen before becoming a criminal. Every man has his price and there's BIG money
in the drug business.
One battle front in the war on drugs is to stop the guns and drug money that are shipped to Mexico from the United States. It's a two way street,
there are criminals in both lanes and the southbound lane is the American responsibilty. |
I thought the same thing....
Just because you named some passengers on the Internet form is no proof that is who was in the plane that morning. They must have gotten a tip about a
plane bound for Mexico with a cartel member on board... it just wasn't this plane! |
You need to read the other four letters written by the pilots that this happened to also. In each case the pilots were told it was a "random check"
These incidents happened at different airports on different dates. So there goes the "tip" theory and that one of the passengers threw a "red flag"
For you pilots, when you file the eAPIS form I wander if you can file a departure from a different airport when you go to leave. Then just say you had
a change of plans. That way the CBP officers would be waiting at the wrong airport.
I haven't used the eAPIS to file to leave the country but a local pilot here was telling me that you can't even choose F70 so you have to file that
you departed from Carlsbad or something like that.
Both optimists and pessimists contribute to the society. The optimist invents the aeroplane, the pessimist the parachute.
— George Bernard Shaw
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DianaT
Select Nomad
Posts: 10020
Registered: 12-17-2004
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
Well... my question again is what freedoms did YOU lose? I didn't lose any and my country wasn't attacked again.
Communism? Ha ha, that is the next step after socialism and socialism is when government takes over businesses and operates them instead of private
citizens... sound familiar? Remember Russia used to be part of the Union of Soviet SOCIALIST Republics, run by the communist party. Socialism has
FAILED everywhere it has been tried.
They really don't teach that anymore do they? Even the Europeans with all their socialism (government run businesses and services) are abandoning that
as it fails to serve anyone well and bankrupts their economy. |
Again, 9/11 happened under the Bush watch. They were warned in May of 2001, then again Rice was warned in July of 2001---warnings included the idea
of Osama's group wanting to hijack airplanes, and explosives. And then, in August, GWB was personally warned while he was on one of many
vacations---he bushed off the warning. They might not have been able to stop it, but they ignored the warnings. Good Job.
And they continually used 9/11 as the reason for shredding our Constitution and then connected it and their lies about WMD to start a war in Iraq.
Gees, even Cheney admits today these things did not exist.
Then to run the war so Cheney could grow rich with his shares of Halliburton and no bid contracts, the cost of the war was never included in the
budget---instead, they added the costs after the budget and borrowed, borrowed, and borrowed.
First time in US history that the country was not asked to sacrifice something during wartime. Instead, Bush told everyone to go shopping and not
worry about it. Good job.
It is easy to use the fear words of socialism, commie, etc., and that is all they are, fear words. There are lots of different types of socialism,
lots of degrees---some works, and some does not, and it depends on lots of other circumstances.
And, unfortunately, in the name of stopping the commie waves, which were not really happening, the US as a government has been responsible for
setting up and supporting some of the worse governments in the world, Pappa Doc and Baby Doc in Hatti, Samoza in Nicaragua, the series of fascist
governments in Guatamala after the CIA did in Arbenz --which led to a 34 year civil war,--- the Iran incident that led to the Shah --on and on.
We would all be better off if the Commie boogie man was put to rest----and please, places like North Korea are commie in name only---they are fascist
dictatorships.
Back to the topic----there are decent ways to do searches, and then there are the other ways----what happened here, IMHO, was wrong.
Unfortunately, any type of law enforcement draws the wrong personality. Yes, there are MANY great people in law enforcement, but then there are the
power and control people.
Those in this country who are willing to give up their rights in the name of security remind me of the elite for whom we worked in Guatemala. They
wanted the fascist government back because they were safer---better law enforcement. It was better for them. They had all the financial control and
as long as they didn't speak up, they were safe.
As a result, in a room of these Guatemalan's, no one would speak an opinion until they were sure everyone else agreed with them. In their schools
under the fascist regimes, creative writing was taught---their version---it was all about having beautiful handwriting. Free thinking was
discouraged, but they were safer.
When someone is concerned only about exactly how something has affected them personally, and does not look at the big picture or care how it affects
other people, and only thinks about security, that is sad and how GWB and gang were able to operate. It is a little like my new favorite quote from
Craig T. Nelson on the Glen Beck show while complaining about the current economics.
"I've been on food stamps and welfare, did anybody help me out? No. No. "
[Edited on 6-10-2009 by jdtrotter]
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64852
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
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Mood: Have Baja Fever
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"For you pilots, when you file the eAPIS form I wander if you can file a departure from a different airport when you go to leave. Then just say you
had a change of plans. That way the CBP officers would be waiting at the wrong airport."
Wow, do you think that is a good idea?
Perhaps the searches were random and not by a tip... regardless, if it is too frequent then contact your congressman and cross your fingers. Freedom
to travel is something I enjoy. Maybe they still got to fly to Baja, but if it happened again, I would call that harassment. Bajaboy, Mt.Goat666...
what say you guys? Isn't this more serious a threat to personal freedom than my international call to Yemen being wiretapped???
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airmech
Nomad
Posts: 184
Registered: 9-2-2006
Location: Murrieta Ca
Member Is Offline
Mood: Expeditionary
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
"For you pilots, when you file the eAPIS form I wander if you can file a departure from a different airport when you go to leave. Then just say you
had a change of plans. That way the CBP officers would be waiting at the wrong airport."
Wow, do you think that is a good idea?
Perhaps the searches were random and not by a tip... regardless, if it is too frequent then contact your congressman and cross your fingers. Freedom
to travel is something I enjoy. Maybe they still got to fly to Baja, but if it happened again, I would call that harassment. Bajaboy, Mt.Goat666...
what say you guys? Isn't this more serious a threat to personal freedom than my international call to Yemen being wiretapped???
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Thought I might add also that the eAPIS wasn't mandatory till May 18th, so in less than a month there has been four of these searches (that have been
reported so far).
Both optimists and pessimists contribute to the society. The optimist invents the aeroplane, the pessimist the parachute.
— George Bernard Shaw
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