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Skeet/Loreto
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4709
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Thanks Pam; Good common Sense and i wish you Luck.
When I wnet fishing in April of 2008 I was surpised at the Fantastic number of Bait and Fish. It very much reminded me of the years of the late 80's.
Pam, those Sieners will be oput of there and if the People of Loreto get upset enough they will do something about it. So keep up the good work.
I personally do not think that you or your Children will ever see the demise of the Sea Of Cortez.
It would take 10 years and 10 Sieners like you are seeing today fishing all over the cortew to get the fish, then it is doubtful if they could get
them all.
Remember you are in a very small part of the Sea of Cortez and just imagine the number of fish that came up when the Colo River was still flowing??
Do what you can and I applaud you, but make sure those Crying the Loudest are telling the Truth, not doing it to get you to Donate to their Cause.
Skeet
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flyfishinPam
Super Nomad
Posts: 1727
Registered: 8-20-2003
Location: Loreto, BCS
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Mood: gone fishin'
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well I could go on about some more of this but I am just too tired, long day. I wish you were right about this Skeet but I am not holding my breath I
gotta do something.
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Pescador
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3587
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Location: Baja California Sur
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| Quote: | Originally posted by BajaBad
The only solution is to ban the sale/export of fish from the Sea of Cortez (in cooperation with Japan who are the main buyers) and make commercial
fishing and shrimping illegal. There is no other solution IMHO.
Maybe with more reporting of illegal/criminal practices - routine throughout Baja - this will become more evident as it seems impossible to try and
enforce regulations that are routinely being violated. The devastation they cause is incalculable.
Phase-out commercial fishing over a two year period or so (stop renewing licenses, etc.) while creating plans for sustainable fisheries in locations
throughout Baja - where it may be feasible - in conjunction with Japan to meet their demand for supply. Give the out-of-work commercial fishermen
governmental support to create sustainable fisheries or work in the new industry if they choose to.
After an adjustment period and fair and ample warning - punish Mexican commercial fishing offenders like they punish Gringo offenders (ones without
licences on boat while fishing...) - confiscate their boats and never give them back. After a few of those I wonder how enforcement would be
respected and looked at by those who treat it like a joke presently?
I know it worked on the gringo end when we were in Baja - everyone took care to have licenses for all on board so as to not have the possibility of
having their boat confiscated...
Once commercial fishing is halted - the money that is now being used (with next to nil effect) to try and enforce regulations could be used to help
local fishermen maintain their trade (providing licenses and assistance where and when needed for basic sustenance) and regulate the trade for supply
& demand within Baja & Mexico - i.e. restaurants, etc.
Use Japans technology - perfected over 3 decades of research - to focus on 100% farmed bluefin tuna - one of the most sought-after species. Japan
could provide much of the funding and assistance to meet their demand for supply in conjunction with the Mexican government.
First step - start thinking of how and when to end commercial fishing in the Sea of Cortez... donīt think there is any other long-term, effective
solution. |
First of all, this information is mostly erroneous. Japan is a buyer of some sea food products in Mexico, but Mexico itself is by far the largest
buyer. So how do you justify a morally superior stance to pretend that you understand even a portion of what goes on with the economy of fishing and
when did you become an advisor to the government on how to run their fishery. If you are only going to rehash the information that is put out by
seawatch.org then you are obviously going to be just copying the bias and persuasion already being proffered by seawatch.
Your credibility is completly lost when your solution is to suggest that penned bluefin tuna are a positive solution. Penned fish farming has proven
beyond a doubt that it is not only an environmental disaster as it wreaks havoc on the local populations of fish, but may well environmentally impact
a large area with ammonia deposits as well as introducing parasitic invasions that have been proven to destroy whole fisheries.
I can just picture Jose and Pedro becoming the new vigilante enforcement division. They are going to ride the high seas in their panga and report
all of the wrong doing and illegal fishing in their area. (except for maybe their cousin who needs the fish to sell so that their mother can get an
operation), and Pablo who paid them off to look the other way while he sets just one little net to buy shoes for his daughter, and of course Betto who
was the one who saved your butt from going to jail over the incident who now expects to be paid back for favors rendered.
In the same way that Canada gets totally incensed when the United States tries to tell them how to do things, it is very important to remember that
we are visitors to a foreign country and it is very disrespectful when we think that we, who only see a small part of the picture, can tell them how
to run things that we can only glimpse at understanding. Now if Pam thinks that this thing has a chance to work, I respect that in the same way I
would respect Shari's opinions because they live there, have a great deal of insight into how things really work, and have spouses that do understand
a great deal of the system.
I spend a lot of time talking to the locals and listen to their complaints and perceptions and sometimes I am able to toss out a small idea but I
have very little faith in my ability to bring about any meaningful change nor do I really think that I have the right to do that. If I get upset
enough about the way the fishery is run then I can always move on to someplace like Costa Rica which has a completely different management philosophy
or God forbid, California.
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fishbuck
Banned
Posts: 5318
Registered: 8-31-2006
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I agree with alot of what you say there Pescador. But to a certain level don't you think that Mexico should respect our desire to not see the fishery
ruined. And respond in a positive way.
Alot of us put in effort and money to fish there. To that extent we are stakeholders in that fishery too.
But if the guys in Loreto think it's okay to poach fish and not enforce the rules on the commercial fisherman as well as the sportfishermen, I'll be
glad to spend my time and money someplace else.
My suggestion is to support the people and places that respect the fishery and respect the people who visit there to fish.
And boycott the people and places that don't.
[Edited on 7-2-2009 by fishbuck]
"A ship in harbor is safe, but that is not what ships are built for." J. A. Shedd.
A clever person solves a problem. A wise person avoids it. â Albert Einstein
"Life's a Beach... and then you Fly!" Fishbuck
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GeoRock
Nomad
Posts: 329
Registered: 3-7-2003
Location: Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Mood: Always have one
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The only solution to preserving the waters of the world is to quit eating seafood.
I am proud to say I have not eaten life from the seas for 30 years and have no intention of ever again eating sea or land creatures.
Even if you are not able to quit eating sealife, at least do it for one single day a year. October 1 is World Vegetarian Day. If everyone would
resist meat for just that one day, a huge amount of life would be preserved.
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Pescador
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3587
Registered: 10-17-2002
Location: Baja California Sur
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| Quote: | Originally posted by fishbuck
I agree with alot of what you say there Pescador. But to a certain level don't you think that Mexico should respect our desire to not see the fishery
ruined. And respond in a positive way.
Alot of us put in effort and money to fish there. To that extent we are stakeholders in that fishery too.
But if the guys in Loreto think it's okay to poach fish and not enforce the rules on the commercial fisherman as well as the sportfishermen, I'll be
glad to spend my time and money someplace else.
My suggestion is to support the people and places that respect the fishery and respect the people who visit there to fish.
And boycott the people and places that don't.
You are right on with that thought. I think we need to do everything possible to make our voices heard. I think the billfish orginization does that
very well. They are very well respected and have a strong voice with the legislature of Mexico. I think it is imperative to have that conversation
with your local pangueo. I think it is very important to have that conversation with people like Pam and Sheri but I also recognize that I have to
communicate respectfully and out of a position of caring. I have input in my local community but because I listen more than I talk and because I show
respect for the local officials, when I do say something they have more of a tendency to listen because I come from a position of caring rather than
just a "loud mouthed outsider" who thinks he knows everything. Recently the billfish orginization met with the Mexican Congress and showed them the
economic impact for the tourist places that centered around the fishing market and communicated clearly about the impact of losing that economy if
they did not repeal Norma 29. It looks like that finally will happen.
Until I see something intelligent and meaningful coming out of Seawatch, I have a tendency to classify them in the same vein as Greenpeace, Earth
First, Earth Liberation Front, and my all time favorite, PETA.
[Edited on 7-2-2009 by fishbuck] |
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Skeet/Loreto
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4709
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Fishbuck;
Did you ever stop to think about the Priviledged "Fly Fisherman" of the States.
The only thing that will stop the Demise of the Fish is the stoping of the Increase in population.. The more people, the more fish consumed.
Another thing that must be considered is some peoples actions to tell other countries how they should use their own natrual Resources.
We as "Good Americans" cannot expect everyone else to have the same Standards as we have.
Just think about the "Drug' Problem/ relate it to the Fish Problem,
Skeet
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Cypress
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7641
Registered: 3-12-2006
Location: on the bayou
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Mood: undecided
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This whole scenario has been played out quite a few times, in far too many places, each area is unique in it's own way. What worked in one body of
water needs some tweeking to work in another. The sad fact is that fishing technology has progressed to the point that the fish really don't have a
chance. The guy in the panga with a hand line is the canary in the coal mine. His day is over. Wish him well.
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BajaBad
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Posts: 115
Registered: 1-30-2007
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Pescador
First of all, this information is mostly erroneous. Japan is a buyer of some sea food products in Mexico, but Mexico itself is by far the largest
buyer. So how do you justify a morally superior stance to pretend that you understand even a portion of what goes on with the economy of fishing and
when did you become an advisor to the government on how to run their fishery. |
Pescador - you misunderstood and are misrepresenting what I said. I said that Japan is the main Exporters/Buyers of fish. Hope that is clear.
I did a bunch of research when writing a few articles - very little comes from SeaWatch website, but give credit where credit is due and have much
respect for the work they do.
Your comment about 'having a husband' simply shows what a male chauvinist you are and reflects your own ignorance and lack of credibility. I happen
to care about the ocean and seas and what future I am contributing to for my child as well as future generations as much as any other 'person' here.
| Quote: | | Your credibility is completly lost when your solution is to suggest that penned bluefin tuna are a positive solution. Penned fish farming has proven
beyond a doubt that it is not only an environmental disaster as it wreaks havoc on the local populations of fish, but may well environmentally impact
a large area with ammonia deposits as well as introducing parasitic invasions that have been proven to destroy whole fisheries.
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Good info, yet I am not sure how right you are - or wrong. The issue on a global scale seems to be how to provide for the demand of fish, that isnīt
decreasing (regardless of good intentions & 'donīt eat fish' campaigns by many). Many researchers say sustainable farms are one of few solutions
to this problem - on a global scale.
The best info Iīve just read came from Don Alley -
"...hook & line fisheries do less damage than nets, have lower bycatch and come closer to sustainability even w/ little regulation"
Now thatīs something to think about.
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OLIGUACOMOLE
Nomad
Posts: 122
Registered: 4-16-2009
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two cents
Just a thought. Marines live and are stationed off the Mulege estuary. Stationed there with barracks and hummers! I bet they have a boat with a motor
that works!
I would never think of this, but I have a enemy that would.....
First an observer watches for the pangas going back and forth from the estuary. Some of these pangas could be running drugs?! A person could make an
anonymous phone to report these illegal actions. Call if there are drugs suspected of being shipped from the seiners. The Marines spring into action
with black masks from a boat with guns ready and board the illegal seiners looking for contraband. Soon the seiners want to have nothing to do with
the Mulege and the Marines and head off for better hunting grounds. Some of us from Mulege are so impressed with the Marines we buy them sodas and
such when we hear of them protecting us from possible drug smugglers.
Or you can make/write a report to the authorities which will be acted on immediately if not sooner!.....
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BajaBad
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Posts: 115
Registered: 1-30-2007
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A few resources. Problem with some of my info/opinions is that it comes from thinking of export issues (highest price fetches from Japan), not solely
from within Mexico - commerical and local harvest - that many are thinking of.
In a sense, two different things... if you take away exports, then the simplest solution is to ban net boats and only allow long-lining? Obviously
thought of before... is it the best solution?
Add in exports and need for production to satisfy demand that is predicted to increase annually, you have a whole new ballgame. Are sustainable farms
- that donīt use wild stock - a solution? Possibly.
Articles that might be useful for more info/thinking of solutions -
Commercial Fishing Causes Dangerous Fluctuations In Fish Populations, Research Shows: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/10/061018151028.ht...
Ecologically & Socially Sustainable Fisheries (a model for Baja?):
http://www.thefishsite.com/articles/706/ecologically-and-soc...
New Solutions Needed for Extinction Prevention & for Sustainable Management of Marine Resources:
http://news.bio-medicine.org/biology-news-2/New-solutions-ne...
Bluefin Tuna in Crisis: http://www.panda.org/what_we_do/where_we_work/mediterranean/...
Lastly - this is for you Pescador: "Bluefin populations have dropped by as much as 90 percent in some areas due to overfishing and the global demand
for sushi."
From the article 'Farm-raised bluefin tuna spawn controversy':
http://www.mnn.com/earth-matters/wilderness-resources/storie...
BajaBad
[Edited on 7-2-2009 by BajaBad]
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Russ
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6742
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Location: Punta Chivato
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I pulled one paragraph out of the material provided by BajaBad.
"The fishery industry has more than doubled in the last 30 years. Ninety-five percent of the worlds fishers are from developing countries and work
in traditional artisan fisheries whose combined catches amount to about 50 percent of the 125 million metric tons of fish harvested worldwide each
year. For that reason, implementation of no-fishing zones has met with tremendous resistance among people economically dependent on fishing.
Co-management of marine resources by governments, private fisheries and communities only recently has been recognized as an effective way for
sustainable management programs to gain acceptance."
I believe this info is way low. 30 years ago how much of the "developing countries" fishing fleets used spotter planes, satellite images, surface
temp images or the whole array of other electronics used today? And this article says they take only 50% Think how much more efficient the "developed
countries" are. My thinking is if they were using the same ships & boats the could take 50% more.
Bahia Concepcion where life starts...given a chance!
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Pescador
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3587
Registered: 10-17-2002
Location: Baja California Sur
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| Quote: | | Quote: | Originally posted by BajaBad
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Pescador - you misunderstood and are misrepresenting what I said. I said that Japan is the main Exporters/Buyers of fish. Hope that is clear.
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No, what you said, and I quote you, "The only solution is to ban the sale/export of fish from the Sea of Cortez (in cooperation with Japan who are the
main buyers) and make commercial fishing and shrimping illegal. There is no other solution IMHO. " I am saying that Japan is the main buyer of
penned bluefin tuna, and probably the main buyer of abalone and lobster from the pacific coast fishery. (Shari probably can answer this more
correctly than I.) But as far as the fish market in general, Mexico buys more of its own food fish than any foreign market. When it comes to squid,
the Korean market is the strongest player and buys and sells most of the squid caught in the Sea of Cortez.
| Quote: | Originally posted by BajaBad
I did a bunch of research when writing a few articles - very little comes from SeaWatch website, but give credit where credit is due and have much
respect for the work they do.
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I am glad you tend to agree with the philosophy and manner in which they choose to conduct business. My belief is quite different from that and I am
still waiting to see something positive come from this orginization.
| Quote: | Originally posted by BajaBad
Your comment about 'having a husband' simply shows what a male chauvinist you are and reflects your own ignorance and lack of credibility. I happen
to care about the ocean and seas and what future I am contributing to for my child as well as future generations as much as any other 'person' here.
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You grossly misread my statement and intent. I could care less if you choose to have a husband and that was not the intent of the message. What I
was saying is that both Pam and Sheri have married native Baja residents and therefore are more in touch with both the culture, language, and
traditions of the Baja way of life than someone who is coming in from the outside. To assume that I am a chauvinist may in fact reflect your own
feelings about your marital status and does not accurately reflect my biases or lack thereof. In fact if you knew me or my wife you would readily
have to concede that chauvinism is certainly not one of my "issues".
| Quote: | Originally posted by BajaBad
Good info, yet I am not sure how right you are - or wrong. The issue on a global scale seems to be how to provide for the demand of fish, that isnīt
decreasing (regardless of good intentions & 'donīt eat fish' campaigns by many). Many researchers say sustainable farms are one of few solutions
to this problem - on a global scale. |
In the same way that you can find researchers that say we are entering in to a period of global warming, you can find the equal number who completely
disagree with that concept. I have a very good friend from British Columbia whose job with the Federal Fisheries Department was to do extensive
research on the topic of fish farms and their effect on the environment. But here I would suggest that you attempt to use a little common sense as my
friend Skeet would suggest. If fish were meant to be raised that way they would have all been born in pens. Seems that the very same idea was once
tried in Australia where they thought it would be a really brilliant idea to import rabbits to control a weed problem, and the rest is history. While
it seems to be a good idea, on the surface, it has proven to be an ecological disaster with increased concentrations of waste byproducts, killing of
the natural local food base to feed the penned fish, increase of parasitic infestations due to overcrowding and non-natural disbursements of fish, and
an artificial, at best, situation that could be more effectively managed situation by more carefully thought out legislation and control.
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BajaBad
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Posts: 115
Registered: 1-30-2007
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Pescador
No, what you said, and I quote you, "The only solution is to ban the sale/export of fish from the Sea of Cortez (in cooperation with Japan who are the
main buyers) and make commercial fishing and shrimping illegal. There is no other solution IMHO. " I am saying that Japan is the main buyer of
penned bluefin tuna, and probably the main buyer of abalone and lobster from the pacific coast fishery. |
Again - that Japan are the main buyers of exported product from the Sea of Cortez, and apology accepted for your comment that my "information is
mostly erroneous."
| Quote: | | You grossly misread my statement and intent. I could care less if you choose to have a husband and that was not the intent of the message. What I
was saying is that both Pam and Sheri have married native Baja residents and therefore are more in touch with both the culture, language, and
traditions of the Baja way of life than someone who is coming in from the outside. |
I didnīt grossly misread anything. So to be more clear you are saying a person - I mean a woman - needs a 'Mexican' husband to express concern and
viewpoints regarding the Sea of Cortez and related issues? You just added racism to your chauvinism.
| Quote: | | While it seems to be a good idea, on the surface, it has proven to be an ecological disaster with increased concentrations of waste byproducts,
killing of the natural local food base to feed the penned fish, increase of parasitic infestations due to overcrowding and non-natural disbursements
of fish, and an artificial, at best, situation that could be more effectively managed situation by more carefully thought out legislation and control.
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This is excellent - and from my understanding pretty accurate information. Iīll even say itīs OK for you to write and express those views even though
you donīt have a Mexican husband... I mean wife...
The problem is that most say now that farming is necessary to help replenish wild stock - along with other solutions such as management of commercial
fishing like the fights going on to revise NOM-029 etc. That it is critical to help species whos stock may be decreasing at a rate to lead to
extinction - like bluefin tuna.
My point before about Japan and fish farms -- SUSTAINABLE fish farms -- NOT what you are referring to that are more accurately called 'ranches' and
cause the problems above -- is that they have developed the most advanced method for bluefin tuna farming in the world - NOT using wild stock.
So how can Mexico take advantage of this? Since its probably ludicrous to think they will stop selling altogether...
They could work in partnership with Japan - first stopping the export of bluefin tuna and other species out of the country (read: export of product -
farmed or netted) and meet this demand -- that is thought to drive much of the illegal fishing practices that go on today due to the high price they
pay for product from my understanding -- with sustainably-farmed product. Japan could assist Mexico in creating these farms for their supply.
Stop the export of all but SUSTAINABLY farmed fish. Just a thought as to one solution for one aspect of the problem. Of course the rest of the
package is needed also; laws, regulations, punishment for offenders... but how can a key part of the problem be mitigated? Meaning bluefin tuna, and
the incentive for destructive fishing coming from demand and high-price of product from Japan?
Here are a couple related articles that make good reading on this issue:
Bluefin Tuna in Crisis: http://www.panda.org/what_we_do/where_we_work/mediterranean/...
Lastly - this is for you Pescador: "Bluefin populations have dropped by as much as 90 percent in some areas due to overfishing and the global demand
for sushi."
From the article 'Farm-raised bluefin tuna spawn controversy':
http://www.mnn.com/earth-matters/wilderness-resources/storie...
Cheers & happy fishing, BajaBad
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Cypress
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7641
Registered: 3-12-2006
Location: on the bayou
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At least nearly all the posters agree about one thing, the fish stocks in the Sea of Cortez are hurting. What to do about it is the question?
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Pescador
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3587
Registered: 10-17-2002
Location: Baja California Sur
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| Quote: | Originally posted by BajaBad
I didnīt grossly misread anything. So to be more clear you are saying a person - I mean a woman - needs a 'Mexican' husband to express concern and
viewpoints regarding the Sea of Cortez and related issues? You just added racism to your chauvinism. |
Holy cow, well at least I understand now why you don't have one of those husband thingys.
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ElFaro
Nomad
Posts: 231
Registered: 9-16-2007
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Some more anecdotal information on the effects of the Tuna pen farms off Ensenada...
For the past few years we have regularly stayed at the RV park at Estero Beach Resort. Virtually without interruption huge migratory flocks of sea
birds would decend on the Estero back bays every year. However...in the last 4-5 years the bird flocks have disappeared. I really believe the
reason is the bait seiners have netted so much bait that the birds have no bait fish to feed on and have simply moved onto other areas. This year
there are only a few Gulls, Pelicans, and shore birds around...the flocks are gone.
Also...I listen to a fishing radio show weekly and they have a "regular" on there who reports what fresh fish is available and prices at the wholesale
fish market he works at. BTW...this mkt. is a big supplier to restaurants in San Diego Co. This market is regularly supplied Blufin Tuna (BFT) from
those pens. I know because I have purchased BFT from them for my sushi and the receipt shows the source of the fish.
And get this...On a recent show he said they were getting Halibut from Baja pangueros for sale. I was thinking...holy cow...the pangueros are going
after Halibut along the Baja Pacific coast for market now!! Maybe this has been going on for awhile but it was news to me. I assumed all halibut was
coming from Alaska...but now Baja pangueros ??
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