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bajafam
Senior Nomad
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Location: Northeast AZ, Bahia Asuncion, BCS :)
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
Cypress:
What difference does it Make if all the Moose are Gone??
Skeet |
Do you really believe this, Skeet? Every time a creature is wiped from the surface of our planet, it damages the entire eco-system. That being said,
there is a natural system of checks and balances. Every creature needs to eat, and most creatures are on the menu. It is a proven fact that when
certain creatures are being abolished, they will produce more offspring to make up for it. Coyotes do this....and I know that turtles lay a massive
amount of eggs in preparation for the inevitable fate of the baby turtles, if they ever even hatch. The percentage of hatchlings that make it to the
sea is disparaging. However, if there were no predators, there would be massive amounts of turtles and that would upset the balance.
We have a sea documentary by a Japanese oceanographer Mr. Nagoto and in it, he visits a remote island where the tradition is to gather turtle eggs for
a specific time period after they have been layed. They are only allowed to do it for so many hours each time. The people know that the majority of
the turtle eggs will be ravaged by predators, so they take some, leave some for the predators, and then they protect some. It is a very interesting
piece, showing a "tradition" that to us is appalling, but to them is a way of life.
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Osprey
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After I was lucky enough to be a very small part of the turtle conservation effort on East Cape, seeing how the nursery system works, I'm convinced it
would work in Costa Rica and around the world. I'm sure turtle groups are way ahead of me on this but for example, in CR the government, with the help
of turtle groups could designate a part of the beach as a nursery, transplant 1/3 of the nests/eggs for controlled release 45 days hence. That would
leave plenty of food for the natives, insure some positive future for the next generation of surviving leatherbacks.
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bajafam
Senior Nomad
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Now that, Osprey, sounds like a great idea!
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mtgoat666
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
bajafam;
It does not make any difference what I might beleive! Do you not understand that the Endangered Specice Fiasco does not affect the people except in a
Negative way such as taking away their Income and Food.
What does the Moose have to do with our daily lives or Food?? Please Answer this Question.
I am not for killing just for the fun of it, I consume all the fish I take or give it to my Mexicano Friends.
They also share with me at least once a year a Turtle, if the time is right.
What difference has the "Snail Darter" had on your Life.????
Please answer the Questions the best you can. I really want to know what affect Endangered Species Has???
Skeet |
Skeet,
I can't think of anything useful a Texan has ever done, so seems we won't shed a tear if we drive you extinct. I would rather have moose and snail
darters than texans. I do think the english language would be improved if we get rid of Texans.
proof of california eco liberal supremacy is the giants stomping rangers 
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bajafam
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well, Skeet, I have to say that I am affected, as are my children and future generations in my family, by not having the opportunity to see these
creatures alive. And you truly think it's okay to deplete a species based solely on the fact that PEOPLE must make money and eat what they please?
I am glad that you do not kill just to kill, but some do.
And FTR, if there were no moose, there would be a large part of many creatures natural food source missing ~ wolves, bears, cougars eat these giant
creatures. If they were gone, then those predators would be forced to look elsewhere for food...coming closer to our homes.
Also, people do eat moose, so again, the loss of them would be devastating to such communities. The natural food source of the moose is vegetation,
and without them, such vegetation would run rampant, causing who knows what kind of harm.
So, yeah, the moose is important.
And the snail darter, well, I personally am, at this moment, unable to relate it's plight directly to my life. But, give me a little more time to
examine that particular creature and I'll get back to you!
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toneart
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Lee
| Quote: | Originally posted by toneart
| Quote: | Originally posted by BajaWarrior
Costa Rica, and yes, they sell them. |
I don't think this is Costa Rica.Turtles are protected by the government. |
I've been in CR during turtle season and the locals will tell you poachers come in and dig up the eggs. Just the way it is down there.
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Lee,
My experience in Costa Rica was in the two areas that I mentioned: Playa Grande, just north of Tamarindo, and in the Mangrove estuaries just north of
Limon, on the Caribbean Coast.
While at Playa Grande, the Leatherback Turtle egg laying and hatchings were controlled and protected by the Government. There was also a University
group that had been tagging and monitoring them for years. I really don't think poaching was going on there.
I was not aware of Costa Chica, where apparently the photos were taken. In what area did you hear that poaching was going on?
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mtgoat666
Select Nomad
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
Well I now do not have to have an Answer as you Begging for Donations tells the who;le Story.
I feel sorry for those who have to Beg for Money>
This Ole Texas Boy has always workde and produced income for his Family with out resorting to Begging for donations.
Bajafam. Yopu will never be as good as a Texan!!
Tempurence, Prudence, Foritude, and Justice/ Try it you may be able to become a "Good Person" instead of a Begger!! |
skeet,
you once were amusing. now you are nasty. i now rank you vile category (with mrbillm and gull). dude, wtf happened to you?
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Cypress
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Moose is downright tasty, too bad there aren't more of 'em. Even though there numbers have decreased they are not endangered. The turtles are
endangered and their numbers are decreasing. Don't think I'd brag about eating an endangered species.
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vandy
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Here is an interesting article about LEGAL turtle eggs in Costa Rica.
http://www.nicoyapeninsula.com/ostional/
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bajafam
Senior Nomad
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funny, Skeet, as we just had a nice banter in the sea lion thread. It's a shame that you turn to insult because I answered the questions you asked,
but apparently you don't care for the answers?
FTR, I never said anything bad about Texas. That was goat...
And, the last time I checked, my "begging" as you referred to it was to fund items to bring to families...gosh, I hope that the Susan Komen
Foundation, March of Dimes, Jerry's Kids, and the like don't get wind that asking for donations is begging, and that in order to be a good person you
cannot ask for help. Those inconsiderate low lifes!!
The donations are not for me...my husband does a fine job bringing in an income to support his family, thank you. If you would refer to my thread in
the My Baja Website area, under Mama on a Mission, you may decide to eat your words, but in the meantime....
Gee, Skeet, yous use such beeg wordz I best look dem up in my word book thingy....as I is butz a lowly English teecher and stay at home mama.
Tempurence? If you meant temperance ~ –noun
1.moderation or self-restraint in action, statement, etc.; self-control.
2.habitual moderation in the indulgence of a natural appetite or passion, esp. in the use of alcoholic liquors.
3.total abstinence from alcoholic liquors.
Not sure how that applies here? But, I will drink in moderation and attempt to control myself 
Prudence ~ –noun
1.the quality or fact of being prudent.
2.caution with regard to practical matters; discretion.
3.regard for one's own interests.
4.provident care in the management of resources; economy; frugality.
Okay, so asking for help for others isn't discreet? I just figured it was for Baja families so Baja Nomads may want to lend a hand. And, by doing so,
I'm hoping to aid in care of the management of those families resources, economy and frugality. So, prudence, check, got it.
Foritude, which I think you meant, fortitude ~ –noun
mental and emotional strength in facing difficulty, adversity, danger, or temptation courageously.
Hmmm... pretty sure I have that as well, especially in this situation, where I am doing something for others while so many people tell me it's
impossible. So, fortitude, check, got that too.
And that last one, wow, you really got me there...
Justice ~ –noun
1.the quality of being just; righteousness, equitableness, or moral rightness: to uphold the justice of a cause.
2.rightfulness or lawfulness, as of a claim or title; justness of ground or reason: to complain with justice.
3.the moral principle determining just conduct.
4.conformity to this principle, as manifested in conduct; just conduct, dealing, or treatment.
5.the administering of deserved punishment or reward.
I never claimed to be righteous, but I am certainly doing my best to uphold a moral standard. So, perhaps you could enlighten me on how to better use
your definition of justice in my daily life?
So, I guess I should try harder to be a good person?
A secular person who values virtue might define a “good person” as someone who:
•Loves their family (I love mine more than anything)
•Looks out for their neighbors (I do this every day, even with the one I don't really like so much ~ still help him out when he needs it.
•Donates to charity (constantly...and um, I run a charity, so....)
•Volunteers their time (I'm a stay at home mom, so all my time is volunteeered. I also give many hours to my charity, as well as spending time at the
Humane Society, etc.)
•Puts in an honest day’s work (well, I guess that depends on your definition...but I work 24/7 providing a caring environment for my family...the pay
is crap, but the rewards are many.)
As for turtles...sorry to hijack, folks, but no, I probably wouldn't eat them...unless I was in a situation where it would truly be insulting to my
host and I knew that they were harvested sustainably. But I also wouldn't throw Abuela in jail for feeding her family one, either.
[Edited on 11-2-2010 by bajafam]
[Edited on 11-2-2010 by bajafam]
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Bajatripper
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Wasn't Skeet begging, in a manner of speaking, for us to bring jackets down to the poor kids working in the fields outside of CC a while back?
Or is begging something else that is only bad when liberals engage in it?
If the shoe fits...
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toneart
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Thank you Vandy! This explains the photos that apparently showed legal, conservation poaching. According to the article it is allowed for the first
two days of the turtles' arrival...only on this beach.
What I said before about the other turtle beaches and how the government protects them still rings true for me. I witnessed it several times and
nobody there talked about poaching in those areas. I feel better now, as I was getting a little worried; not only for the turtles, but also for what I
believed to be true. 
Skeet-
Ignorance sometimes creates a situation for amusement. We just consider the source and the source is consistent. Of course, you are free to continue
displaying your ignorance. Unfortunately, your statements have recently become more mean spirited towards good Nomad individuals and are NOT amusing!
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bajafam
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thanks toneart...and this is what the documentary with Mr. Nogato was talking about...the arribada....it is a very interesting segment of the
movie...I'll have to see if I can find a YouTube clip.
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wilderone
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I know this isn't about moose or elk, but to respond to Skeet's comment: "Do you not understand that the Endangered Specice Fiasco does not affect the
people except in a Negative way such as taking away their Income and Food."
What an absolutely self-centered way of looking at the world. All of Earth's life, in whatever form, are interconnected to create a balance, for
humankind's well being, the totality of which we don't even understand. One village has no right to deplete the earth of one of its creatures. I
just read that because of the introduction of the wolf in Yellowstone, its overall ecology improved dramatically. Excerpt: "... aspen and willow were
dying off during the seven decades the [wolves] were absent and the elk population boomed. When the wolves came back in 1995, the elk could no longer
lazily chew away all the aspen and willow chutes. Plants and trees rebounded, songbird numbers grew, and beaver colonies boomed." Now please don't
tell me that because you can't eat songbirds, wolves, beavers and aspen that those living things are worthless to humans (regardless that that may be
the case in your sorry world).
If the people who are up in arms because their turtles are being protected from their cooking pots, I would suggest they get off their collective
arses and solve their food problem. 98% of the world (or close) do not rely on turtles as a food source, so they need to get a clue from the rest of
world and finally learn how to feed themselves, and allow the turtles their place on earth.
PS: Some of the more general environmental battles are fought within the parameters of the legislation because that is the only weapon with which to
wage the fight. Something like the snail darter may only be the tool used to achieve a greater purpose - like preserving open space or stopping oil
company intrusion on public land. Sometimes the apparent disappearance of a species is discovered to be linked to pollution of its habitat and serves
as a borometer of the quality of that habitat, so the battle waged to save the particular creature affected is really a battle to clean up a waterway,
or stop industry pollution. A healthy earth can only benefit humankind.
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ramuma53
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We have to take something in to consideration when we accept something as a routine or customary food.
Humanity numbers are so great and climbing so fast, we can upset a balance too fast sending species to oblivion.
Of course if you have a very educated people that had long time experience and who respect authority, you have control and that is why it works in the
pacific islands and may work on Costa Rica and surely will work on North Europe, but most of the now endangered species are in big population mostly
ignorant countries, like Mexico.
Just ask the fisherman in Popotla or El Campto in Rosarito Baja, the officials who are in charge of protecting the species, are the ones who talk to
them, asking them to violate the law, get money and pay some bribe, no limits established.
We found there, where the abalone has banished and lobster is going the same way, that you need normal people as nature inspectors, who have the
courage to denounce the official inspectors and people who align with them and of course forums to denounce.
Normal people get courage only when they are educated to know the real consequences of those against nature acts, then they even put themselves in
jeopardy to protect nature, like the poor official who tried to stop the butchering in Oaxaca, yes it was too much, but he had denounced the acts a
lot of times to authority and nobody listened to him, until he got too desperate and acted that way, because everybody was in the business, including
the local authorities who were claiming it was a customary act.
Yes a population can have its customs, but not when the custom upsets nature; a small population can control their young and business people through
wisdom, but in large populations, people hide behind customs to abuse nature; they say it is a custom to eat it, then they get every animal or egg to
sell to the big city insatiable appetite and that is the problem that need control.
The problem is not a custom, but people who abuse the custom to get profit and those are the individuals that need denouncing, first to local
authorities who usually are in the business, then up and up until the help cry is heard, even if it is the UN.
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wessongroup
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Good to see such a balanced view on environmental considerations .... thanks to all... it all helps...
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ramuma53
Banned
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Just look about what we are talking about
Matan tortugas , las hacen botas
Por Jorge Escalante
REFORMA
(15 Enero 2004)
REFORMA / Guanajuato
LEÓN.- La piel de las tortugas masacradas en las costas de Guerrero termina como botas en las calles de León.
En la llamada Zona Piel, el centro de venta de calzado más grande de Guanajuato, se pueden conseguir artículos de piel de procedencia ilegal, sin la
intervención de las autoridades.
Para conocer la mecánica de la venta ilegal, un reportero de REFORMA adquirió un par de botas de caguama en la zapatería David King Boots, ubicada en
la calle Iguala 221, local 8.
Aunque no están en exhibición, las botas de caguama se cotizan entre 850 y mil 200 pesos, dependiendo de su acabado, mientras que las de oso
hormiguero cuestan hasta 5 mil pesos.
En la zapatería Boots Santana, ubicada en el tianguis Al-Rey, local 2, se muestran las botas de piel prohibida a petición del cliente.
"En la mayor parte de los negocios establecidos de León, principalmente donde se venden botas, existen productos elaborados con pieles prohibidas,
casi todos le entran al negocio, que es más productivo por ser ilegal", reveló Agustín López, comerciante en Zona Piel.
De acuerdo con Marcos, un vendedor de la empresa David King Boots, la piel de tortuga que llega a León proviene de Guerrero y Oaxaca.
"Lo que nos venden de la tortuga son sus patas (aletas), las delanteras son más baratas que las traseras. La patas delanteras se cotizan entre 250 y
270 pesos, las traseras, de donde se obtiene más piel, entre 300 y 330 pesos", explicó Marcos.
En los últimos tres meses, más de 500 tortugas fueron masacradas en el municipio de Petatlán, Guerrero. Grupos ecologistas responsabilizan al grupo
armado llamado "Los Nejos".
REFORMA entregó las botas a la Profepa, donde se buscó al delegado estatal Refugio Camarillo Salas, quien estaba ausente. El producto quedó bajo
resguardo de esa dependencia.
http://www.tortugamarina.com/noticias_reforma_1152004-3.html
also you can check thisone
LA SEGOB PROMUEVE CONSUMO DE CAGUAMA
EL SUDCALIFORNIANO
GUSTAVO ALONSO ALVAREZ
LA PAZ, BCS (OEM).-La Secretaría de Gobernación por medio de su página en internet
e-local promueve como atractivos gastronómicos de La Paz y Los Cabos platillos de
caguama, especie en peligro de extinción, cuya pesca y consumo está prohibida en el
país, la publicación en la red cita que las “aletas de caguama rellenas que se
consideran un platillo único en el arte culinario del país”, otros platillos que pondera
como atractivos son la sopa de caguama, “el pecho de caguama estilo marinero” y por
otra parte “la machaca de venado en tortillas de harina”.
Apenas ayer la delegación de la PROFEPA en BCS hizo un llamado público para evitar el
consumo de caguama (tortuga verde o phillus), y para que denuncien a quienes
consumen esta especie, protegida por la NOM059, pues la población sigue a la baja por
su pesca ilegal, castigada con cárcel y fuertes multas.
De forma contradictoria la Secretaría de Gobernación a través de su página e-local,
presenta un producto llamado “Enciclopedia de los municipios de México”, por medio
del cual pretende fomentar el conocimiento de las características y atractivos de cada
municipio del país, sin embargo en la gastronomía local, los platillos de caguama y
venado, otra especie protegida, saltan a la vista.
La dirección es: www.e-local.gob.mx, en la cual da clic en el link “Enciclopedia de los
municipios de México”, selecciona BCS y por municipios puede recorrer las
características y atractivos. En www.e-local.gob.mx/wb2/ELOCAL/EMM_bajasur se
puede entrar directamente.
En La Paz, en el apartado de Atractivos Culturales y Turísticos aparece: “Gastronomía,
Alimentos: sopa de caguama, sopa de aletas de caguama, aletas rellenas, machaca de
carne de res o venado con tortillas de harina, chopito (queso fresco), mantequilla y
chorizo”.
En Los Cabos: “Gastronomía, Alimentos: Burritos de machaca, pecho de caguama; en
todo el estado de Baja California Sur, es mezcla de estilo pastor y marinero; aletas de
caguama rellenas que se considera un platillo único en el arte culinario del país”.
La Enciclopedia de los Municipios de México también se encuentra impresa y es
gratuita para el público, de acuerdo a la página es un sistema de consulta que permite
conocer y adentrarse en las características de los municipios del país, lo califican como
un esfuerzo coordinado entre el Instituto Nacional para el Federalismo y el Desarrollo
Municipal de la Secretaría de Gobernación, actualmente tiene datos de los 2,435
municipios de México.
LA PROFEPA ADVIERTE FALTA DE ÉTICA Y MORAL EN LA SEGOB
El delegado de la PROFEPA en el estado, Julio César Peralta Gallegos, calificó a la
publicación en línea de la SEGOB donde fomentan los platillos hechos basándose en
caguama como una “mala ética y mala moral, que aparezcan esas alusiones para
alentar el consumo de caguama”.
Julio César Peralta Gallegos dijo mientras ellos desalientan estas prácticas es injusto y
una falta de ética que otras dependencias ponderen a los platillos de caguama, por lo
que buscarán que se eliminen las páginas de inmediato.
Por otra parte dijo que se analizará si jurídicamente están incurriendo en una falta los
responsables de la publicación.
http://www.icfj.org/files/baja/8GAA-1.pdf
So you havea an idea of the real problem
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BajaRat
Super Nomad
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Mood: Ready for some salt water with my Tecate
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Nice work, Skeet. Doesn't do much good grabbing your huevos when the great white shark has bitten you off from the mid-section. One important thing
that most people should consider: do your homework and save yourself the embarassment of speaking of what you know nothing about. I love opinion, and
I welcome controversy but when it has no weight, it floats to the surface like pond scum. Try to add something postive, try to add some sincere
criticism, try to add something that would help a cause. I'm sure I'm more of a cynic than you.
Thanks. Lionel
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Cypress
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BajaRat, You have a way with words. And they are music to my ears! Thanks!
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flyfishinPam
Super Nomad
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Location: Loreto, BCS
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Mood: gone fishin'
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Skeet is correct!
| Quote: | Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
bajafam;
It does not make any difference what I might beleive! Do you not understand that the Endangered Specice Fiasco does not affect the people except in a
Negative way such as taking away their Income and Food.
....
Please answer the Questions the best you can. I really want to know what affect Endangered Species Has???
Skeet |
Skeet-
I just checked back here and saw that you have removed your posts. I am disappointed by that but I do understand because of the pressure in many of
the posts in this thread.
Folks- skeet is right in the first phrase above the environmental movement and the endangered species and other facades are just that. They are a
means for them to make money for themselves while limiting the rights of the people and all in the name of "saving the planet". This is so very
wrong.
After a few years of doubting Señor Skeet I realize that I have been brainwashed into believing the environmental movement. I read Silent Spring
about 20 years ago. I studied biology, biochemistry, chemistry and physics..yet was still convinced. Looking back especially at my degree in
biology, many of my professors (not all) were outright indoctrinating me and my fellow classmates into this movement. Maybe that's what attracted me
to the physical sciences and away from the natural sciences...numbers don't lie I preferred and still do prefer black and white results to derive my
conclusions.
I have since living here become a part of the local environmental movement from the inside for the first time ever. I was and still am quite
dissappointed by what I have seen. Skeet is right. While policy makers are impressed by the people of this movement and the NGO's, I have become
unimpressed. I know the science but unfortunately donors and politicos do not. I live with the people and like them, those that are becoming
affected by policies based in poor science and money agendas and I am disgusted by this.
I see this as the way that article 33* of the Mexicn constitution is violated-
most here are aware of it, it basically states that foreigners cannot get mixed up in politics of this autonomous nation. But this is the grande
loophole of all...large donors offer big grants with serious and specific strings attached....NGO's compete for these grants and carry out vague
programs...then eventually they affect the very policies that are supposed to be tabu- moneyed foreigners involve themselves in Mexican politics in
an indirect yet oh so effective way. They are determining our laws! These laws are becoming so restrictive that they are hurting the people very
much. Those who are hurt the most are the ones who live off the land and the sea.
Its funny that the ones who are most adamant about these newly forming environmental restrictions are the very ones who have the largest environmental
impacts themselves!
think about it.
Skeet is not wrong he is RIGHT. It is now obvious to me that he HAS lived with and like the people here. Those of you who have caused him grief
enough here who have accused him of not knowing anything about this should reflect upon yourselves and your words. Maybe he just didn't express
himself in a convincing way but he is right.
When YOU live with and like the people, learn their language and do without the creature comforts that you have been used to, lived off the land or
sea directly and have suffered these ever growing restrictions...then YOU will have my respect in speaking against what I see and say until
then...think critically.
*http://info4.juridicas.unam.mx/ijure/fed/9/34.htm?s=
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