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Bajatripper
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3151
Registered: 3-20-2010
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Pure effing baloney. The cross border crap has nothing to do with a new relationship between two rational people. They stand in front of each other
with no baggage.
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While I agreed with many of your initial observations on this thread, I couldn't disagree with you more on this point, Dennis. What happens on the
other side of the border most definitely comes back to bite us in the rear here, as my Loreto story was meant to demonstrate.
I'm with the long-winded fellow who's traveled to Mars and back.
I don't know how fluent you are in Spanish, and that can make a big difference in detecting the source of a person's irritations. In my case, the guy
made it crystal-clear that he was holding me personally accountable for the mistreatment he and every other Mexican has ever suffered on the other
side of the fence.
It's sure good to know that you don't care what anyone thinks about your opinions, so I know this small criticism won't set you off, right? (or am I
in line for another mauling?)
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desertcpl
Super Nomad
Posts: 2405
Registered: 10-26-2008
Location: yuma,az
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| Quote: | Originally posted by wilderone
"Last June I had work in Haiti. Everything I said above does not apply to this country and I will write about my trip if anyone is interested."
I'd like to hear about that. Write in "Non Baja trips" |
Ditto,,
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Bajahowodd
Elite Nomad
Posts: 9274
Registered: 12-15-2008
Location: Disneyland Adjacent and anywhere in Baja
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You Gotta Be Kidding Me
| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajaboy
| Quote: | Originally posted by DENNIS
....Stole their land too.
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Every time I hear that the US stole land from Mexico I ask about the land stolen from the Native Americans by the Mexicans. The US did not steal
anything....they won a war. |
Just what revisionist history source are you quoting?
You want to assert that the (European) Mexicans stole from indigenous people, fine. Just what did Americans do NOB? Just start with the Cherokee
nation and move on from there.
We won a war fair and square? In what sense? We just decided we need more territory (manifest destiny, if you will), and figured we could kick the
Mexicans out.
Geez.
I have to say, however, that to say that what we did so long ago is still fueling resentment in Mexico is something of a stretch.
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DENNIS
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 29510
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajahowodd
I have to say, however, that to say that what we did so long ago is still fueling resentment in Mexico is something of a stretch.
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The government needs scapegoats. That, of course, is us. Better to put all blame for failure across the border than to fix things. To forgive and
forget would serve no useful purpose.
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BajaGringo
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3922
Registered: 8-24-2006
Location: La Chorera
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Mood: Let's have a BBQ!
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DENNIS
| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajahowodd
I have to say, however, that to say that what we did so long ago is still fueling resentment in Mexico is something of a stretch.
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The government needs scapegoats. That, of course, is us. Better to put all blame for failure across the border than to fix things. To forgive and
forget would serve no useful purpose. |
That is a political strategy I observed frequently in many third world nations where I have lived. People use whatever tools they have available and
politicians are the best at the blame game...
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burnrope
Nomad
Posts: 214
Registered: 10-24-2006
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Mister With Out Papers,
Maroon-To be abandoned on an island or a deeply colored red.
marooon-What I become with too much Tequila.
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Roberto
Banned
Posts: 2162
Registered: 9-5-2003
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Also,
Maroon - the word the board software changes the second word to.
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Dave
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6005
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Hey...It works!
| Quote: | Originally posted by Roberto
Also,
Maroon - the word the board software changes the second word to. |
Why did the little marooon take the TV into the bathroom?
He wanted to see Howdy Doody.
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fishabductor
Senior Nomad
Posts: 800
Registered: 5-29-2010
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajahowodd
Just what did Americans do NOB?
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In my neck of the woods WA state, at least where I grew up, but no longer live. While we won the war, we gave the indians more rights than the rest
of the population have.
The indians can fish/crab/hunt year round, w/o limits.
They can hunt whales with 50cal rifles
They can have casinos
They don't have to pay taxes
They can place nets across rivers??????
and they don't have to abide by the same laws...
I am all for it if the indians need to do this for spiritual reasons and traditions...BUT that is not the case. To do this they would need to
hunt/fish/whale hunt by traditional means...not by using 50 cal rifles, speedboats, nets that are 60' deep and invisible, gambling should be a pile of
rocks/sticks...and last but not least they would not being doing this for profit.
Don't get me wrong, some of my closest friends are coastal indians and I am far from a racist. But in my book everyone who lives in the same country
should have to follow the same rules.
While I am no history buff, this is the only conquered people I know of that have more rights than the conquerers.
We took Mexico's land, however we make them follow the same rules as the rest of us....why don't we make everyone follow the same rules?
[Edited on 4-1-2011 by fishabductor]
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krafty
Super Nomad
Posts: 1052
Registered: 8-23-2010
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boy, you will probably open a can of whoop ass with that question
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Bajaboy
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4375
Registered: 10-9-2003
Location: Bahia Asuncion, BCS, Mexico
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajahowodd
| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajaboy
| Quote: | Originally posted by DENNIS
....Stole their land too.
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Every time I hear that the US stole land from Mexico I ask about the land stolen from the Native Americans by the Mexicans. The US did not steal
anything....they won a war. |
Just what revisionist history source are you quoting?
You want to assert that the (European) Mexicans stole from indigenous people, fine. Just what did Americans do NOB? Just start with the Cherokee
nation and move on from there.
We won a war fair and square? In what sense? We just decided we need more territory (manifest destiny, if you will), and figured we could kick the
Mexicans out.
Geez.
I have to say, however, that to say that what we did so long ago is still fueling resentment in Mexico is something of a stretch.
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Um, most wars seem to be about land, resources, and/or religion. Sure, Spain wanted more resources and to spread Christianity...so did the US of
A....no arguments there. But to say that the US stole land from Mexico is pure BS.
[Edited on 4-1-2011 by Bajaboy]
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jenny.navarrette
Banned
Posts: 275
Registered: 3-3-2011
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajahowodd
We won a war fair and square? In what sense? We just decided we need more territory (manifest destiny, if you will), and figured we could kick the
Mexicans out. |
Let me correct your understanding of the history of the Mexican-American War for you, and the next 500 people here who are going to mindlessly repeat
that faded story.
Mexico had only claimed the territory ceded to the US for 25 years, since winning its independence from Spain in 1821.
Mexican President Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna had agreed to the Rio Grande as the border between Texas and Mexico in the Treaties of Velasco on May
14, 1836. The Mexican Congress maintained Santa Anna had no authority to enter into such a treaty. Mexico officially rejected it as invalid and
continued to assert a claim over Texas.
Before the outbreak of the Mexican-American War, on 10 November 1845, President James K. Polk, had sent his envoy, John Slidell, to Mexico to offer
Mexico around $45 million for the territories of Nuevo México and Alta California. The Mexican government dismissed Slidell, refusing to even meet
with him.
In April, 1846, 2,000 Mexican soldiers under the command of Colonel Anastasio Torrejón, crossed the Rio Grande in violation of the Treaties of Velasco
and camped near Brownsville, Texas. A company of US soldiers on patrol on the Texas side of the Rio Grande were attacked by the Mexican troops and was
forced to surrender after several hours of resisting. 16 US soldiers were killed and 5 wounded.
On May 13, 1846, Congress declared war on Mexico. Mexico reciprocated and declared war on the US.
At the conclusion of the war, under the Treaty of Hidalgo, the US paid Mexico $15 million for the land ceded and assumed another $3.25 milion of debts
Mexico owed to Americans. The remainder of New Mexico and Arizona were peacefully purchased under the Gadsden Purchase, which was carried out in 1853
and the US paid Mexico $10 million. So that land was paid for, even after the US had to prosecute a 2-year war with Mexico, and this was done so even
after Mexico abrogated a treaty and attacked a US force on Texas territory.
Do you still think the US stole the land?
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 65279
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
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Mood: Have Baja Fever
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Thank you!
Money still flows south from these former Mexican lands, as well.
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durrelllrobert
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7393
Registered: 11-22-2007
Location: Punta Banda BC
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Mood: thriving in Baja
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How Mexicans Perceive Americans in Baja?
How Canadians preceive Americans in Canada?
How Americans preceive Canadians everywhere?
How American Indians preceive the white man?
How the whiteman preceives native Americanson the reservation?
...ad infinitum
Bob Durrell
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Cypress
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7641
Registered: 3-12-2006
Location: on the bayou
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Mood: undecided
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The truth be known they perceive 'em just like anybody else.  The same way you and
I perceive 'em. Think of it? How many of 'em would you want to be with onboard a small boat all day ? The small boat factor!
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Bajatripper
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3151
Registered: 3-20-2010
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DENNIS
| Quote: | Originally posted by Roberto
And oh yeah, how much Spanish do you speak?
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Suficiente... y mas, cuando es necesesario. Quieres mas, pocho?
Digame. Su vida Mexicano es puro frauda. Un otro cabrón hombre sin pais.
Chupa que yo tengo in mi mano, cabron. |
Is this your offer of proof of your command of Spanish? I think it took me all of two weeks to master that much.
But more importantly, is that how you really want to be seen? I thought you were classier.
And you CLAIM that you don't care what anyone else thinks of your opinions. I would say this juvenile outburst says all the contrary. Not befitting a
man of your obvious education.
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monoloco
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6667
Registered: 7-13-2009
Location: Pescadero BCS
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| Quote: | Originally posted by jenny.navarrette
| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajahowodd
We won a war fair and square? In what sense? We just decided we need more territory (manifest destiny, if you will), and figured we could kick the
Mexicans out. |
Let me correct your understanding of the history of the Mexican-American War for you, and the next 500 people here who are going to mindlessly repeat
that faded story.
Mexico had only claimed the territory ceded to the US for 25 years, since winning its independence from Spain in 1821.
Mexican President Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna had agreed to the Rio Grande as the border between Texas and Mexico in the Treaties of Velasco on May
14, 1836. The Mexican Congress maintained Santa Anna had no authority to enter into such a treaty. Mexico officially rejected it as invalid and
continued to assert a claim over Texas.
Before the outbreak of the Mexican-American War, on 10 November 1845, President James K. Polk, had sent his envoy, John Slidell, to Mexico to offer
Mexico around $45 million for the territories of Nuevo México and Alta California. The Mexican government dismissed Slidell, refusing to even meet
with him.
In April, 1846, 2,000 Mexican soldiers under the command of Colonel Anastasio Torrejón, crossed the Rio Grande in violation of the Treaties of Velasco
and camped near Brownsville, Texas. A company of US soldiers on patrol on the Texas side of the Rio Grande were attacked by the Mexican troops and was
forced to surrender after several hours of resisting. 16 US soldiers were killed and 5 wounded.
On May 13, 1846, Congress declared war on Mexico. Mexico reciprocated and declared war on the US.
At the conclusion of the war, under the Treaty of Hidalgo, the US paid Mexico $15 million for the land ceded and assumed another $3.25 milion of debts
Mexico owed to Americans. The remainder of New Mexico and Arizona were peacefully purchased under the Gadsden Purchase, which was carried out in 1853
and the US paid Mexico $10 million. So that land was paid for, even after the US had to prosecute a 2-year war with Mexico, and this was done so even
after Mexico abrogated a treaty and attacked a US force on Texas territory.
Do you still think the US stole the land? |
The traditional border between Texas and Mexico had been the
Nueces River about 150 miles to the north of the Rio Grande and both Mexico and the United States had recognized that as the border. Some historians
like Howard Zinn consider that ordering troops into territory inhabited my Mexicans to be a clear provocation by Polk.
Colonel Ethan Allen Hitchc-ck, commander of the 3rd Infantry Regiment under General Taylor wrote in his diary at the time:"I have said from the first
that the United States are the aggressors....We have not one particle of right to be here...It looks as if the government sent a small force on
purpose to bring a war, so as to have a pretext for taking California and as much of this country as it chooses, for, whatever becomes of this army,
there is no doubt of a war between the United States and Mexico....My heart is not in this business...but, as a military man, I am bound to execute
orders." In fact at the time there was a lot of opposition in the US to the war with Mexico. It really is fascinating history, I highly recommend
Zinn's account in the "People's History of the United States. BTW, the reason that Mexico immediately repudiated the Treaty of Velasco was that Santa
Ana was being held prisoner when he signed it, in fact is was never considered a valid treaty by anyone until Polk invoked it.
[Edited on 4-1-2011 by monoloco]
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JESSE
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3370
Registered: 11-5-2002
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It all depends on the person. I know many americans who are accepted into Mexican society as if they where born and raised here and are never treated
as foreigners. Many are some of my best friends. On the other hand, theres others that never blend in, and they don't want to. Thats fine, but
investing some time and effort into being a part of the local community has its benefits.
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Bajatripper
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3151
Registered: 3-20-2010
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajaboy
| Quote: | Originally posted by DENNIS
....Stole their land too.
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Every time I hear that the US stole land from Mexico I ask about the land stolen from the Native Americans by the Mexicans. The US did not steal
anything....they won a war. |
Boy, Bajaboy, you certainly have a warped, biased understanding of history. Where do you get your information?
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Bajatripper
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3151
Registered: 3-20-2010
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Woooosh
At first my Mexican family constantly interfered with me negotiating directly with anyone offering services- like plumbers, electricians and the
dreaded firewood guy. They say they'll get a better price and better service if they are present when we work out the deal. I don't know if they are
right or not, but I suspect they are. That tells me my family thought other Mexicans would take advantage of me as a "gringo" (I do hate that word)
if not for their interference.
I know my Vet charges me more than Mexicans because he thinks I can afford it. I know he donates his services when people can't afford to pay- so I
roll my eyes and pay. It's a little bit of a Robin Hood thing- but I am a willing participant. |
I commend you on both your observations and your interpretations, wooosh. I think you are spot on wih both.
While I'm by no means rich by US standards (enlisted military pensions don't pay much), I know I have more than the average Mexican living in La Paz
and I don't mind subsidizing the less fortunate. I'm a socialist by nature.
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