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jrbaja
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Apparently M,
You missed that thread a year or so ago. Perhaps since Jeans enjoys changing stories around so much, she can show some proof of what was said.
The terminology used was Lag N----rs which is what we called ourselves when we lived there. Carols sons were born there and still use it because it
is actually kind of funny.
Haven't heard from you in a long time. What brings you around tonight ?
Jeans wants to now change things around to benefit her "cause".
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jeans
Super Nomad
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Mood: Encantada
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I'm not changing any story. You admit you called her that. Your tone, as usual was very insulting, after we reported a problem at Guadalupe.
It is common pattern for you to sling vicious insults, then say Hey...I was only joking. You already changed one of your posts to Tucker tonight, now
didn't you? Do not bother to respond....I'm outta here for the rest of the weekend.
Have fun, kiddies
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Baja Bernie
`Normal` Nomad Correspondent
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Mood: Just dancing through life
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Most interesting---I think!
The most interesting thing I found in this whole thread was Tucker's byline--"Zeal is fit only for wise men but is found mostly in fools." Ancient
Proverb
Perhaps we should all reflect upon that for a moments or three.
Remember when I used to say=="Baja is about People helping People."
Now I am beginning to wonder.
My smidgen of a claim to fame is that I have had so many really good friends. By Bernie Swaim December 2007
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jrbaja
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Let's see some proof Jeans
rather than justyour usual cackle. Anybody can do that and obviously, some are better at it than others.
If someone was trying to blackmail me, I would certainly say something about it rather than waiting a year to make the allegations.
But that's just me. You on the other hand can continue to try and round up your little group of grovelers to raise hate for one of the few people
that actually try to help the people down here.
Got anymore zoo projects going on? You sure switched positions on that one didn't you? Just like your statements on here!
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M
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Mood: looking for joy...
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Actually JR
I don't post much, I'm either in the hospital, staying in bed or when I do make it upstairs, I tend to lurk. M
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jrbaja
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Well M
It's good to see you up and around. Speedy recovery !!
As far as I know, we had our differences quite some time ago and thought we had put them aside. I did.
For someone to try and rekindle them, i think is pretty chicken chit but, heck, i'm just a dumb old finger chopper.
And thank you for your help.
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Annie T.
Junior Nomad
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Good grief Charlie Brown!! Sometimes it becomes darn unpleasant lurking!!
Live, love and be happy.
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Oso
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Late comment
Obviously, I've stumbled onto this thread way late, so I won't get into the generalizations, which by nature are always subjective. But, I would like
to inform our esteemed administrator that Futbol Americano is indeed played in Mexico, at least at the collegiate level. The U. at Toluca had a
strong team when I taught English there a long long time ago. It just hasn't caught on at the televised, corporate-sponsored level there, same as
soccer still has acceptance problems here.
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Herb
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Uptight angry people and this thread...
I re-read the post that kicked off this thread (and many who replied should as well) and it is amazing that it diverged into such a p*ssing match.
It was never stated that ALL gringos are bad and ALL mexicans are good. (In fact, while many seem to attribute that point of view to him, I have never
read or heard JR express that idea). His post began with the observation that foreign tourists are suprised by the amount of hospitality, kindness and
helpfulness displayed by people in Baja. He then put forth some observations/ rhetorical questions about what may have happened to us north of the
border that would make us think this behavior is so special when it "should" be just normal human values and behavior. He then proceeded to encourage
people to get out and experience some of that difference. Finally, he mentioned one of the differences as an example.
I think you'd have to be pretty defensive to find that a negative post. And his post is true. If there were no difference between the way people act
here and in Mexico, why are Americans always so surprised by these behaviors. Shouldn't we expect it if that is the way folks act back home? Most
americans I know decry the erosion of what used to be traditional american family and community values. Most parts of Baja are comforting and
refreshing because that erosion has not happened as rapidly there.
So, why would folks want to first lie about what his opionion is (All gringos are bad) and then use that as an excuse to just pile on with personal
hatred and attacks? If you ask me, it kind of goes a long way towards proving his point.
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Braulio
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Hey Oso - In Mexicali and TJ most of the colleges and unis have americano football teams - in fact the mascot of Cetys in TJ is the Oso. There even
used to be a league amongst the colleges around TJ for female flag football - I imagine there still is. I guess that explains why life is so unhuman
in those places. We have a Pop Warner club in Mexicali but practically all our opponents are from the other (US) side - I think we play Yuma one of
these games.
Herb and Hose A (nice name) - Some of us prefer to simply relate specific experiences - that is - we're afraid of where the slippery path of
generalization might lead us. In fact I'd bet that some of us on this board have even been affected personally by overzealous generalizations.
Personally I try not to go there unless it seems really important - but I have to admit that I do cross the line more than I should and spend a lot
of time uninserting foot.
As to whether or not JR is correct in these particular generalizations - well - I think his experience is probably kind of limited. Run a google on
"Limoncito Sinaloa Valentine" . It's real easy to take micro events or personal experiences and then try to parlay them into some macro edict -
blowhard types spend their life doing that. If JR didn't want the theme to be discussed in the manner that he presented them, then why in blazes is
he posting his views on the internet. If he thinks the kitchen's too hot then he probably shouldn't have been boiling his stew there.
The more important issue for me is the amount of participation and info that a board like this loses because some people just won't participate side
by side with stuff like this - in fact that's why I haven't participated much in the past year or so. If the issue's such a burning one for JR then
fine - let him post away some place other the general discussion.
Personally I think that there's probably a correlation between reduced frontal lobe size and dishonesty - and that all women are conniving
sinverg?enzas - but geez - I wouldn't get on the net and say that unless I was really drunk or lonely or something.
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Dave
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Well folks, that's the yin and yang of it. I'll leave you to decide who is who and which is which.
I would still like an answer to my question.
(See above, WAY above.)
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jrbaja
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Hey Dave
although your question was directed to Herb, check posts 3 and 4 on page 2 of this thread.
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Dave
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Hose A
The nick name Hose A is a private joke between my wife and myself.
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Not anymore.
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jrbaja
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Herb
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Dave
I would still like an answer to my question.
(See above, WAY above.) |
Well, JR had posted some but since that isn't enough here goes:
Divorce. The notion of a family unit is far more compelling than the notion of irreconcileable differences.
Scant clothing. Particularly in underage females. MUCH less of that down south than up north.
Sense of personal space. People get much closer to you in public places in Mexico. We think it is rude, they think it is rude when we object.
Timeliness. There is definitely a different standard for what is considered polite and not. As a college student in the US, if the professor was not
in the classroom 5 min after the start of class, we assumed class was canceled and split. I was shocked to discover in Mexico City that the "polite"
standard was to wait 20 min for each hour of class. I had one Mexican professor that would sometimes show up 20 to 40 min late for a 3 hour class. I
once had a interview with the VP in charge of Latin American operations for my company in which he stated that, "These people believe there are things
in life that are more important than always being on time and I think they are right."
Being able to relax and enjoy your meal in a restaurant and having to ask to get your check when you are ready to leave... vs. having the check shoved
in front of you as soon as it becomes apparent that you are not going to spend any more money and then having the waiter hover over you periodically
until you've paid and left.
Stopping to strike up a conversation with someone and becoming a coffee, soda, or dinner guest just because you were there and you were nice. Happens
to me about every other time I go to Baja (south of Ensenada). Has NEVER happened to me in the US.
Smiles and waves.
People stopping to help people who are in obvious need of help. I once stopped to photograph some wildflowers beside the road in Baja and had trouble
actually being able to set up and get a good shot because 4 different people stopped to see if I needed help. I've had 2 vehicle breakdowns in Baja
and in both cases people stopped and broke out toolkits and became as engrossed in solving my problem as if it was their own vehicle. I've stopped to
try and help people up here and have actually had them jump in their car and roll up the windows and lock the doors because they were leery of my
intentions.
The focus in the US business community on "strictly business" without "getting to know" the people you are dealing with. I was asked to come along as
the translator on a major business deal with one of my company's customers who had operations on both sides of the border. We negotiated over a
substantial lunch in Tijuana and I had to constantly make appologies for my "rude white friend" who was already asking during appetizers, "So, can we
do the deal?" I had to explain to him that we were still on our kids and their education at that point, no business yet, and that there would be no
handshakes until desert.
I could go on and on but, hopefully, by now you get the point. And when I say Mexican values, I am speaking in generalities and I know that much of
the urbanized border zone from Ensenada north does not reflect these values as much as the rest of Mexico. I also know that you will encounter people
on both sides of the border that will act outside of what are considered the norms for socially acceptable behavior.
Now, I don't think the differences are genetically based. I just think that a lot of things compete for our attention and focus in the modern world.
When you don't have things like personal wealth and your nation's prominence on the world scene to take up so much of your thoughts and attentions, it
leaves you to focus more on the more traditional things
like family and community which I personally find more refreshing.
Finally, I once again do not get comments like Braulio's about :
"If JR didn't want the theme to be discussed in the manner that he presented them..."
Maybe I have a reading comprehension problem, but I took the post as the ultimate travel ad for Baja: Kind of a, Come here get out and explore and
you'll find something different here and you just might like it. Something that we seem to have lost back home. If a positive reason to visit Baja
doesn't belong on a Baja board, then what does? An appeal to come and find someplace just like home would not make me want to travel there. Heck, I
could just stay home!
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Braulio
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Herb -
I'm probably the one with the reading comprehension problem - I just don't see what the point is here or where you want to go with it.
I lived in Mexico City for 6 years - Mexico City is like the worst of the US on steroids.
You're simply comparing your experiences in one situation (big city socal I guess) with that in another (mostly smaller town Baja). Well of course
there are differences.
But let's not start generalizing things beyond that point.
Let's see if we can find some common ground here - would you agree that the cultural differences within each country are much greater than the
differences between the countries (Mexico and US) taken as a whole?
Man - I would.
Likewise comparing the states of Baja and the state of California. The culture in Alturas probably has more in common with Cd. Constitucion then with
Chula Vista.
And you can take things down to differences within each county or city or side of the railroad tracks or whatever.
Great. Where are we going with this?
[Edited on 10-12-2004 by Braulio]
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jrbaja
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Where I was going with this
is trying to point out some differences between the majority of people in the u.s. and the majority of people here in Baja.
And I was doing this to try and open up some eyes and teach them that it's for one, not quite so evil here as some think, and two, perhaps rather
than ignoring some problems that seem to be getting worse all the time, because I care, I talk about them.
My drunken neighbors don't want to hear about it either as they bail their "perfect" kids out of jail!
Many think that if they ignore these not so pleasant problems, they will just go away. Not true obviously.
Again I will say, awareness is the first step. Talking about it openly is the second.
Posts do tend to get off track here but that's where this post started.
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Skeet/Loreto
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Jr
I think you should go up around Roy ,Utah compare the Manners with those of the Souther Baja Area. they are very Similar, I think because of the
"Family Valves" practiced in both Places.
I have spent many years in Baja and mostly with the mexicano people. I do not agree with your thoughts that the Peole of Mexico need your Help to
better themselves.
Chico Fernandes of San Nichalos taught me that many years ago.
"Why Should I grow Vegetables when i can catch fish"
DON'T BE SO SURE THAT YOUR HELP IS 100% desired and accepted. It may be that they are just puttin up with you because they do not want to offend.
Skeet/Loreto
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jrbaja
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Skeet
Are you saying that Dr. Habif really doesn't need anything ?
And as far as the projects that I am doing, I was asked by the locals to help them out so their kids didn't have to go to La Paz or Los Cabos, or
Ciudad Constitucion to work where many of them become involved with drugs and the big city stuff!
Many foreigners believe they should employ them as maids, gardeners, or construction workers.
I believe that if I teach them some stuff about controlling tourism and building with bamboo, they will own their own succesful businesses and not
be dependant on gringo employment.
Teach them to fish!
And if I have to go all the way to southern Utah to find what I am talking about, I don't think I'm too far off base !!
[Edited on 10/12/2004 by jrbaja]
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bajapablo
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Utah has it's problems too!
Older Brother Accused of Cushion-Fort Prisoner Abuse
PARK CITY, UT?Following a probe into activities that allegedly occurred inside a couch-cushion fort located in the basement of the Nelson home, Keith,
11, has been accused of mistreatment, abuse of power, and sitting on his 8-year-old brother Mark's head for up to two minutes at a time.
"What Mark told me was shocking," the boys' mother Elizabeth said Monday. "According to Mark, he and Keith were having fun playing Army until Keith
captured Mark?which is what usually happens, because Mark is smaller?and put him inside the fort they'd made in the basement. I thought they were
playing nicely down there, but there's nothing nice about noogies."
In addition to farting in the fort's entrance and forcing Mark to remain inside, Keith allegedly gave his brother Indian burns, grundies, and a
sustained wet willy. Keith also reportedly subjected Mark to Chinese Finger Torture, by restraining him and methodically tapping his forehead until he
screamed "uncle." Chinese Finger Torture was specifically outlawed by the Nelson family in December 2003, during talks held at Grandma Keller's house.
"I know boys are going to wrestle," Elizabeth said. "But I told Keith never to do that finger-tapping thing. It drives his brother absolutely crazy."
The upholstered prison, named "Fort Awesome" by Keith and Mark during a moment of unity, was made of cushions taken from the family's old blue couch
and reinforced with several blankets and pillows. Although reportedly "grown-up proof," the fortress was slated for destruction even before the abuse
charges were raised.
"The fortress was going to have to come down before dinner anyway," Elizabeth said. "But after this, you better believe it was gone. I made Keith
march right down there and put everything away."
Although he did not witness the incident, Mark's 8-year-old playmate Jacob Oliveri said he can corroborate Mark's psychological-abuse charges.
"Once, when we were playing in the woods behind my house, Keith said he wanted to show us something," Oliveri said. "After we'd walked like 10
minutes, he told us to cover our eyes and count to 50 before opening them. When we opened our eyes, Keith was gone. We had to find our own way home."
Elizabeth said the stress that Keith has experienced during his first weeks in the sixth grade, and the fact that Mark "can be very bratty," may have
contributed to the alleged abuse.
"I'm not going to say that Mark is completely innocent," Elizabeth said. "He sometimes gets a little too big for his britches. But that doesn't mean
I'm going to look the other way when Keith forces Mark to smell his socks. Keith is older, and he should know better."
Elizabeth debriefed the boys' father Paul when he arrived home from work. While Paul pledged that the abuses would not go unpunished, he said he was
not overly concerned about the charges.
"I had a talk with Keith and told him that he should be setting a better example for his brother," Paul said. "But if you ask me, Liz is overreacting.
Boys will be boys. Although things probably did go a little too far, Keith was just playing. That's what big brothers do. And, when Mark reaches the
upper grades, he's going to have to take care of himself. He's not going to have his mother to run to every time something happens."
Although Keith's PlayStation privileges have been revoked for a week, some experts say that punishment will only create a more hostile home
environment.
"Taking away PlayStation rights may have been a mistake," said Dr. Ted Nealman, a noted child psychologist. "It's only going to create unnecessary
resentment against Mark. Additionally, the public nature of the revocation means that every time the neighbors see siblings engaging in innocent
tussling, they're going to sound the alarm. That's unfortunate, because, throughout the neighborhood, older brothers tend to do an excellent job of
keeping their younger brothers out of trouble."
\"changes it lattitudes, changes in attitudes\"
J.Buffet
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