Originally posted by woody with a view
just look at the inner cities. welfare programs everywhere but no jobs. been this way all my life and only seems to be getting worse as time goes on.
a govt program isn't gonna make your life better but a job will! i grew up on welfare. Mom got herself a nursing degree and she did alright by any
measure. i've been on unemployment and know guys who work just so they can qualify for 6 more months of free $... it's a life with no future, just
scraping by. i've bent over backwards to keep working. let's see..... Yuma, Barstow, Ventura, 29 Palms, San Nicolas Island, San Clemente Island and
after summer prolly Yuma again. all while my family is 3-5 hours away by car. i bought a 2002 brand new for work and it has 177k on it now. do the
math....
it ain't no "good" life, but it's my life. and i'm glad to have it.
Good for you Woody! Have you seen the following bumper sticker? "Irritate a Liberal: Get a Job!" (I think it was pee Off instead of Irritate, however)
i'm not taking sides either way. just making a point! most of my friends are Dems. i don't consider myself a Rep as i haven't attained the lofty goal
of inclusion into the 1%.... until then, i just get up and go to work-unless Baja beckons. hey, what's that sound?
Originally posted by David K
I didn't say 'written' was the only type...
Rare view... well, as far as the CALIFORNIA story (on the Indians' side) goes... and when I say California, I mean the original California...
How about presenting more Native American links to their California history? It would be appreciated...
David, do your own research and for primary sources, try some University and Museum libraries----do you know where the original Jesuit writings are
housed? If you are writing a history book, searching for the primary sources is essential; any history book is far more credible if it includes
primary and well as secondary sources. And it is even more credible if the sources are from English and Spanish sources. Otherwise, it becomes more
of tour guide.
Nothing wrong with tour guides, but they are not history books. They may include some simple ideas about the history of an area, but they are
certainly not credible sources for learning history.
It's sad to hear the history of vigilantes and padres. This is the story of a vanquished people as told by a vanquished people.
I feel strongly though had the roles been reversed and the indians had superior firepower they would have treated us in the same way.
It's interesting how the indians are compared to holocaust jews. Indeed they sound like post WWII jews. Like victims. But look at the situation now.
They are in a position of power and are pretty tough on the palestinians.
I don't believe there are good and bad people as the movie implies.
Well, no matter what I post here, there is no pleasing some of you. The funny thing is if someone else posted this with very same title, they would be
made a hero for 'giving it to the evil white man'!
As perhaps the only African-American on BN, I wouldn't use this language to describe Caucasian people in a thread. It simply sounds uneducated.
In the case of the American West it was a little more complicated than "destroy" tho, for destructions sake. The settlers had their reasons, tho they
were incredibly greedy & evil, for eliminating the indigenous peoples who "stood in their way". It was called Manifest Destiny, and woe the
people that tried to resist it, and most "whites" believed in it. Mankind (all mankind) has a history of doing this sort of thing, unfortunately,
which is what you are saying, I believe.
I doubt that individual settlers knew anything about a Manifest Destiny. I doubt that Daniel Boone knew anything about it.
I just think that americans just thought of it as unsettled land. The fact that a few subhuman aborigines occupied it was simply a nuisance. People
simply moved onto land that was available.
Why would this be surprising. No country in europe would survive without a standing army. Nobody was going to respect your right to live on your land
because it's 'the right thing to do'. Adding land to your territory made you more powerful. Heck, I'm still peeed at what the Ottoman Empire did to
the Balkans.
Nothing has changed. Let's pretend that we just now discovered North America with these natives. What would be the outcome. I believe the takeover
again would take place. Just not so brutally. The same deals would be made with an innocent mind.
I wouldn't even call the process greedy and evil. We are wired to take care of ourselves.
[Edited on 4-28-2012 by Skipjack Joe]
Yes, you are right except that what the Settler's were practicing WAS "Manifest Destiny"------they thought it was there God-given 'right' to occupy
lands and move into what they thought was the wilderness-----i.e. Manifest Destiny. However, there were many, most of them in the East, that thought
the plight of the Indians was horrific, and cried out against their treatment, but they were mainly brushed aside by the Govt. and the 'movers and
shakers' who saw the subjugation and corraling of the Indian as necessary for the future of the Nation, and a few who just wanted them eliminated.
To say that the Govt. did not help the Indian's is a vast oversimplification, but they were very clumsy at it, and really did not know how to go about
it, but they were fairly sincere----------now we know it was mostly a disaster, in hind sight. We often hear about the horrible "Indian Agents"
running the reservations, but many were very sincere in their desire to help------we don't much hear about them. I just finished reading a book
"WON'KAN-TAH the osage and the white mans road" by J.J.Matthews about such an Agent on the Osage Reservation in the Mid-West------fascinating book.
The research in world libraries has been done and documented. Harry Crosby and Robert Jackson are two of the most recent authors who has done serious
in-depth research for mission books.... Antigua California is an exceptional source of detail on the Jesuit period (1697-1768).
A Nomad was kind enough to loan me his copy of 'Lower California 1879' by Manuel C. Rojo (Dawson series #26) to help fill in the Dominican mission
period, which is the least known (1773-1849+). The school at Santo Tomas is named for Rojo... So, I do examine Mexican authors contributions, as well.
While I am no financially able to fly to Europe or any of the archives of the mission writings, I can compare books on the subject and gleen details
from them, and then present it in a usable, convenient format... easily to be enjoyed by the average Baja traveler. Dr. Robert Jackson also spent time
with me, here in Oceanside, working on the missions details when we hoped to publish Choral Pepper's last manuscript 'Missions, Mysteries and Myths of
Baja California'.
Well, no matter what I post here, there is no pleasing some of you. The funny thing is if someone else posted this with very same title, they would be
made a hero for 'giving it to the evil white man'!
As perhaps the only African-American on BN, I wouldn't use this language to describe Caucasian people in a thread. It simply sounds uneducated.
I respectfully disagree, Ken. I am a "white man", which is commonly excepted slang for "Caucasian"-------no big deal. And, I am reasonably
"educated". What you are saying here is VERY "PC", in my opinion, and that offends me in a humorous way. All this PC stuff does really annoy me,
and causes anger in me. I have an Indian friend who I always refer to as a "Red Man", and we all laugh about it. He calls me a "bush-ape, from the
foothills of the Pacific"----no big deal!!
Originally posted by David K
The research in world libraries has been done and documented. Harry Crosby and Robert Jackson are two of the most recent authors who has done serious
in-depth research for mission books.... Antigua California is an exceptional source of detail on the Jesuit period (1697-1768).
A Nomad was kind enough to loan me his copy of 'Lower California 1879' by Manuel C. Rojo (Dawson series #26) to help fill in the Dominican mission
period, which is the least known (1773-1849+). The school at Santo Tomas is named for Rojo... So, I do examine Mexican authors contributions, as well.
While I am no financially able to fly to Europe or any of the archives of the mission writings, I can compare books on the subject and gleen details
from them, and then present it in a usable, convenient format... easily to be enjoyed by the average Baja traveler. Dr. Robert Jackson also spent time
with me, here in Oceanside, working on the missions details when we hoped to publish Choral Pepper's last manuscript 'Missions, Mysteries and Myths of
Baja California'.
David what you do not seem to understand is that no serious historian would ever write a history book without personally looking at the primary
sources. Why? Because 10 people can study the same primary sources at different times and come up with 10 different interpretations. Historians
only rely on the works of other historians as secondary sources and a place to begin, unless they are writing a history book that is strictly a
critique of the other historian's conclusions or a comparison of different interpretations.
There are a lot of "popular" books or tour guides that do not include any primary sources, but they are not serious history books. You are writing
about what other people have interpreted --- and ALL interpretations are biased. A historian would never say
Quote:
The research in world libraries has been done and documented.
and think that was it --- done and final.
Enjoy what you are writing, just accept what it really is ---one cannot earn any kind of degree in History without knowing how to use and find
primary sources and understanding the potential bias even in the primary sources, and definitely in the secondary sources.
I have NEVER called myself a serious historian... I am a Baja history-lover/ fan/ reader, etc.
Great historical books have already been written... Getting that correct info to the masses is more important than re-doing what has been done... We
got to undo the damage done by the California School system's teachings that San Diego was the first California mission... and even in the video by
Floyd Red Crow Westerman who said Junipero Serra arrived to San Diego BY SEA! and started the missions there!!
Focus is needed on the important details... if anyone wants more details, they too can go to the great books already written. What I share here on
Nomad is the kind of information guidebooks should have... and it is for free! When I have a new book published, then it will offer more and it will
cost you a little more... let's just say "for you, almost free"!
Diane said, "one cannot earn any kind of degree in History without knowing how to use and find primary sources and understanding the potential bias
even in the primary sources, and definitely in the secondary sources. "
#1 That simply is not true, Diane, and #2 David never said he didn't understand all that. I have a minor college degree in HISTORY and I have seldom
consulted with the "primary sources" as I simply did not have access to them. I relied on other's, read their different opinions, and came to my own
conclusions, and did not claim to be a "scholar". In my opinion that is all that David has done, and he said so over and over again. I love and
appreciate his posts and his interpretations.
Your "standards" are, to me, just inappropriate and too picky, and way to critical in this case-------and to what end??? You are definitely on
David's case (almost always), and I don't know why you do this to one of the most productive guys on the forum----it is simply not appropriate and so
counter-productive to this forum, IMO. I love most of your posts, but not the one's pounding people for not meeting your standards, especially when I
think you are being off-the-wall critical. I frankly don't understand your point in doing it.
OK, I got that off my chest-------now you can pound me.
Originally posted by dtbushpilot
Do you ever tire of picking on DK diana? Why do DK's posts always have to turn into a pi$$ing contest with you? Can't we all just get along?.......dt
He is the eternal victim and I guess I am the only one who ever disagrees with him --- or at least I guess that is how you see it.
As I said, I give as he will never understand what history is and is not.
I do wish him well with his writing efforts --- no matter what he calls them.
Originally posted by Barry A.
Diane said, "one cannot earn any kind of degree in History without knowing how to use and find primary sources and understanding the potential bias
even in the primary sources, and definitely in the secondary sources. "
#1 That simply is not true, Diane, and #2 David never said he didn't understand all that. I have a minor college degree in HISTORY and I have seldom
consulted with the "primary sources" as I simply did not have access to them. I relied on other's, read their different opinions, and came to my own
conclusions, and did not claim to be a "scholar". In my opinion that is all that David has done, and he said so over and over again. I love and
appreciate his posts and his interpretations.
Your "standards" are, to me, just inappropriate and too picky, and way to critical in this case-------and to what end??? You are definitely on
David's case (almost always), and I don't know why you do this to one of the most productive guys on the forum----it is simply not appropriate and so
counter-productive to this forum, IMO. I love most of your posts, but not the one's pounding people for not meeting your standards, especially when I
think you are being off-the-wall critical. I frankly don't understand your point in doing it.
OK, I got that off my chest-------now you can pound me.
Barry
No, not going to pound on you. You are entitled to your opinion and your perception of things.
The only thing I will disagree with is if you did not learn about what primary sources were in college, I wonder where you went to college? Even if
you did not use them, surely you learned about the importance of them and their potential bias?? And surely you learned that those secondary sources
were not ever the "correct" history?
Originally posted by Barry A.
Diane said, "one cannot earn any kind of degree in History without knowing how to use and find primary sources and understanding the potential bias
even in the primary sources, and definitely in the secondary sources. "
#1 That simply is not true, Diane, and #2 David never said he didn't understand all that. I have a minor college degree in HISTORY and I have seldom
consulted with the "primary sources" as I simply did not have access to them. I relied on other's, read their different opinions, and came to my own
conclusions, and did not claim to be a "scholar". In my opinion that is all that David has done, and he said so over and over again. I love and
appreciate his posts and his interpretations.
Your "standards" are, to me, just inappropriate and too picky, and way to critical in this case-------and to what end??? You are definitely on
David's case (almost always), and I don't know why you do this to one of the most productive guys on the forum----it is simply not appropriate and so
counter-productive to this forum, IMO. I love most of your posts, but not the one's pounding people for not meeting your standards, especially when I
think you are being off-the-wall critical. I frankly don't understand your point in doing it.
OK, I got that off my chest-------now you can pound me.
Barry
No, not going to pound on you. You are entitled to your opinion and your perception of things.
The only thing I will disagree with is if you did not learn about what primary sources were in college, I wonder where you went to college? Even if
you did not use them, surely you learned about the importance of them and their potential bias?? And surely you learned that those secondary sources
were not ever the "correct" history?
[Edited on 4-28-2012 by DianaT]
Arghhhhhh------San Diego State University class of '75-------
Neither David (I suspect) nor I are refuting your statement on the importance and bias of "sources"----------and have said so over and over and over
again. What we don't except is it's relevance here. What part of that don't you understand?????? You are ranting against a ghost----we understand
your point, but you won't except that, for reasons only you know.
Originally posted by Barry A.
Diane said, "one cannot earn any kind of degree in History without knowing how to use and find primary sources and understanding the potential bias
even in the primary sources, and definitely in the secondary sources. "
#1 That simply is not true, Diane, and #2 David never said he didn't understand all that. I have a minor college degree in HISTORY and I have seldom
consulted with the "primary sources" as I simply did not have access to them. I relied on other's, read their different opinions, and came to my own
conclusions, and did not claim to be a "scholar". In my opinion that is all that David has done, and he said so over and over again. I love and
appreciate his posts and his interpretations.
Your "standards" are, to me, just inappropriate and too picky, and way to critical in this case-------and to what end??? You are definitely on
David's case (almost always), and I don't know why you do this to one of the most productive guys on the forum----it is simply not appropriate and so
counter-productive to this forum, IMO. I love most of your posts, but not the one's pounding people for not meeting your standards, especially when I
think you are being off-the-wall critical. I frankly don't understand your point in doing it.
OK, I got that off my chest-------now you can pound me.
Barry
No, not going to pound on you. You are entitled to your opinion and your perception of things.
The only thing I will disagree with is if you did not learn about what primary sources were in college, I wonder where you went to college? Even if
you did not use them, surely you learned about the importance of them and their potential bias?? And surely you learned that those secondary sources
were not ever the "correct" history?
[Edited on 4-28-2012 by DianaT]
Arghhhhhh------San Diego State University class of '75-------
Neither David (I suspect) nor I are refuting your statement on the importance and bias of "sources"----------and have said so over and over and over
again. What we don't except is it's relevance here. What part of that don't you understand?????? You are ranting against a ghost----we understand
your point, but you won't except that, for reasons only you know.
Barry
That must have been when you were 50....sorry couldn't help it.
Now I am guilty of age bias.
Thought you lived in El Centro or somewhere like that in the 70's.
"If it were lush and rich, one could understand the pull, but it is fierce and hostile and sullen.
The stone mountains pile up to the sky and there is little fresh water. But we know we must go back
if we live, and we don't know why." - Steinbeck, Log from the Sea of Cortez
"People don't care how much you know, until they know how much you care." - Theodore Roosevelt
"You can easily judge the character of others by how they treat those who they think can do nothing for them or to them." - Malcolm Forbes
"Let others lead small lives, but not you. Let others argue over small things, but not you. Let others
cry over small hurts, but not you. Let others leave their future in someone else's hands, but not you." - Jim Rohn
"The best way to get the right answer on the internet is not to ask a question; it's to post the wrong answer." - Cunningham's Law
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