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DavidE
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3814
Registered: 12-1-2003
Location: Baja California México
Member Is Offline
Mood: 'At home we demand facts and get them. In Mexico one subsists on rumor and never demands anything.' Charles Flandrau,
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Isn't it just plain stupid to have to jump through all these freakin' hoops to not go to prison for saving someone's life?
Jekyll & Hyde, that's Mexico. Tourist P. Jekyll, is smiling with arms extended an ear to ear smile and "¡No Problemos!" filling the air.
Pendejo Q. Hyde meanwhile is shouting "You broke the law! Somebody's dead! Someone has to pay!"
It's no joke that people have paid a lot of money for "Road Damage" when their car went off the road into a ditch. Two hundred dollars (eqvt). There
wasn't even a mark left on the road. The accusers have the book and the gun (Just like in the movie La Ley de Herodes).
The "secret" of The Law, in Mexico is the application of the law. If it isn't enforced or waived a person is home free. Commit a Gran Delito, and have
the law applied and suddenly you are on the best weight loss program and Spanish immersion course on the face of the earth.
A Lot To See And A Lot To Do
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EnsenadaDr
Banned
Posts: 5027
Registered: 9-12-2011
Location: Baja California
Member Is Offline
Mood: Move on. It is just a chapter in the past, but don't close the book- just turn the page
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Well let the Ministerio Publico speak for himself. I will go and talk to them next week like I said and have them define the "Gran Delito" for trying
to save an essentially dead person's life. This is all sounding a bit ridiculous and hyped up. | Quote: | Originally posted by DavidE
Isn't it just plain stupid to have to jump through all these freakin' hoops to not go to prison for saving someone's life?
Jekyll & Hyde, that's Mexico. Tourist P. Jekyll, is smiling with arms extended an ear to ear smile and "¡No Problemos!" filling the air.
Pendejo Q. Hyde meanwhile is shouting "You broke the law! Somebody's dead! Someone has to pay!"
It's no joke that people have paid a lot of money for "Road Damage" when their car went off the road into a ditch. Two hundred dollars (eqvt). There
wasn't even a mark left on the road. The accusers have the book and the gun (Just like in the movie La Ley de Herodes).
The "secret" of The Law, in Mexico is the application of the law. If it isn't enforced or waived a person is home free. Commit a Gran Delito, and have
the law applied and suddenly you are on the best weight loss program and Spanish immersion course on the face of the earth. |
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dizzyspots
Senior Nomad
Posts: 603
Registered: 9-22-2008
Location: Mescal AZ
Member Is Offline
Mood: rather be on the beach at Gonzaga
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I guess the bigger question is.."is it the right thing to do?" I have been a paramedic for about 40yrs. I cannot drive past someone with a flat tire,
much less an injured or ill party.
Given all the things that I MIGHT get in trouble for when we travel to Baja...IF trying to save a life is on that list...well then so be it!!
I still think I can look myself and God in the eyes and justify why I TRIED to help as opposed to why I ignored those pleas for help...because that is
what I would pray the next person would do for me.
PS Interested side note: about a year ago, while passing through the Gonzaga Bay check point, the Army guys stopped us (they new we were
firefighter/paramedics) to help a little girl ith a huge fish hook through her hand!! We got it out, made sure that Dad got her to San Felipe for MD
care....the smile on the little girls face and the look in Dad's eyes...priceless..would do it again tomorrow without hesitation.
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EnsenadaDr
Banned
Posts: 5027
Registered: 9-12-2011
Location: Baja California
Member Is Offline
Mood: Move on. It is just a chapter in the past, but don't close the book- just turn the page
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Exactly, couldn't have said it better myself. I love the theory of "EL Gran Delito"...sounds menacing, doesn't it? The Big Crime...trying to save a
friend's or neighbor's life? All this mumbo jumbo about codigo Penal, or the Penal Code, but I have seen not one citation. And especially a Codigo
Penal concerning AED's. Like you said though, I wouldn't want to even have a memory of where I was in a place and decided against trying to save a
life because I was afraid that the police would pounce on me. I guess some could look themselves in the mirror and say, "I escaped being prosecuted
by letting John Doe die as I watched." Maybe those people aren't worth having as friends now are they?
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DavidE
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3814
Registered: 12-1-2003
Location: Baja California México
Member Is Offline
Mood: 'At home we demand facts and get them. In Mexico one subsists on rumor and never demands anything.' Charles Flandrau,
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I wouldn't hesitate one second either Ensenada Doctor so let's get that inference on the table and smash it with a hammer right now. I do not agree
with the cut and paste that I posted above. But I also insist on not leading folks down the trail of Kumbaya and I'd Like To Buy The World A Coke
idealism and hurt them. Needlessly. Due to ignorance of the reality of the laws and how they may or may not be applied in this country.
"How did this person die?"
"I found him on the floor"
"Who are you?"
"Are you a friend?"
"No but I tried to save him"
"What is that machine?"
(You explain in detail)
"You have to come with me"
"Am I under arrest?"
"You have to come with me"
You wait six hours at the police station while phone calls are made and this is the place where things go right or very very wrong.
(Phone calls from detective's boss to sector salud)
"We found a machine at the scene"
Is the American a doctor?"
"No"
"Is the machine a Mexican approved machine?"
(I'll spare the details here)
"If the machine is not legal in Mexico this is a problem"
A legal Mexican device has to have a FACTURA with a COFEPRIS "clave" printed on it or be registered with sector salud. On paper. The serial number.
The accused is now "Detener" under arrest.
People who are detener for a gran delito do not stay in "the jail". After a few days they get transferred to a prison. Yeah, one of those places with
high walls and guard towers.
This process has to be severed, stopped, stomped on very near to the start. The best would be to have the ministerio publico tell the local cops
"Hands Off" if such a police call were to be handled. They would adjust the paperwork and submit it to the PGE the state attorney general's office.
"Routine natural death. No complications"
Whether anything happens is up to the ministerio publico. I would "suggest" that if at all possible someone who knows someone on the office a person
who is known in the community approach the MP. The best would include a gringo and a local politico. Once the Licenciado waves his arms and makes a
decision you're home free. So is anyone else that uses that machine.
Yeah, I have experience in this freakin' rigamaroll. With small municipio MP's, and with Delegado Federales de PGR. I fear the process, make no
mistake. These can be scary people. And most definetly they all -not- all alike. Some are more easy going than others.
Just a little preparing can short-circuit the criminal liability aspect of using a machine to save a life. This is pretty complete. Therefore the end
of my participation on the subject.
A Lot To See And A Lot To Do
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redmesa
Senior Nomad
Posts: 580
Registered: 3-12-2008
Location: Van Isle and Bahia Asuncion
Member Is Offline
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It seems to me that all this is simple but not ease. The local communities have to be aware and knowledgeable of emergency interventions and
protocols. There is nothing more important than getting the Red Cross to give First Aid training to the police, military personnel, and clinic staff
to make sure everyone is on board. There must be someone in B.A. qualified to use that new (hyperbolic) pressure chamber (not sure what to call it)
in emergencies and the COOPs must have some trained personnel in First Aid. I really think this is the starting point. I am off for my First Aid
course today and I am sure I would do what my limited knowledge would allow me to do in an emergency. However, I think it very important that the
training be there for the Mexican population. Unfortunately, Bahia Asuncion and many rural areas in Baja are just too damn far from hospitals.
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meme
Senior Nomad
Posts: 756
Registered: 8-20-2003
Location: San Felipe,BC
Member Is Offline
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We already had the use of two here in Eldorado Ranch but the HOA just purchased two more for mobil units.
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mooose29
Nomad
Posts: 201
Registered: 10-1-2008
Location: Encinitas/Punta Chivato, Rancho Partera
Member Is Offline
Mood: All Smiles
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Great idea doc
Doc I think the idea is great, having the AED's in a community does not obligate anyone to use the machine however it does make it available for those
that would. No one is making anyone use the AED's, everyone can make their own choice to try and save a life of not it is as simple as that. I for
one would be happy to have anyone use one on me should I ever be in cardiac arrest, and I will be happy to use it on anyone else should they need it.
The machines are set so that they will not shock unless the person needs it. They are designed to be foolproof. We own one at our house in Punta
Chivato that we would make available should it be needed (although right now it is back in the states getting the batteries replaced)
I think we are making this more complicated then it has to be. Over the years we have stopped at several accident sites in Baja including one where
their was a fatality. Each time the police and locals on scene were very happy to have the help and never once was I worried we would be prosecuted
for doing the right thing for another living human being. We were always thanked profusely and we left knowing we did the right thing and the best we
could do.
Everyone has to make their choice.
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DENNIS
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 29510
Registered: 9-2-2006
Location: Punta Banda
Member Is Offline
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What is it? A seven minute window of opportunity to use a de-fib machine? Unless every person has immediate access to one, they would be considered
no more than a passing good thought that was late arriving to the scene.
People here are being impractical to expect miracles from this machine and the person in charge of it........especially in Mexico where rapid response
time is usually fodder for bar jokes.
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EnsenadaDr
Banned
Posts: 5027
Registered: 9-12-2011
Location: Baja California
Member Is Offline
Mood: Move on. It is just a chapter in the past, but don't close the book- just turn the page
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Who is expecting miracles Dennis? I have repeated over and over that each small community would need a 24 hour chain of command, a phone number they
could call. Distance would be a huge factor, so the machine would logistically have to be in an area that was accessible almost immediately. For
instance, say in Lomas Del Mar, Monday Bob could have it, the next day Linda....and people would know who to call in an emergency if there is a
problem. But there would have to be agreement and cooperation with the users. The main key here is that CPR is not going to save you in a heart
attack because it doesn't address the abnormal rhythm of the heart. The machine will tell you, yes, shock advised, or no don't shock. I think it is
vitally important to have a 24 hour emergency number to call. That's why the airports have them every few gates, because if a person falls they
can't wait for the machine from the Delta wing say get to an American airline wing; time is of the essence. Rapid response is a personal decision,
especially when you know you don't have a fighting chance in Mexico it's all the more reason to mobilize a system with your immediate neighbors.
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DavidE
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3814
Registered: 12-1-2003
Location: Baja California México
Member Is Offline
Mood: 'At home we demand facts and get them. In Mexico one subsists on rumor and never demands anything.' Charles Flandrau,
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...adhering to my earlier promise to not discuss the laws...
The best thing is person can do, by far, on an individual basis, is to get a full cardiac panel performed. Nuclear stress test, sonogram, x-ray,EKG,
blood work.
Before moving to Mexico (age 55+)
The test is not a comfortable one (but not painful), but if there are problems, like congestive heart failure impending, areas of the heart damaged,
signs of arrhythmia, under stress, they are going to have a good chance at finding it, prescribing a rational treatment, and pretty much lessening the
chances of a cardiac event from damaging or destroying your life.
"Sir, you motor has four pounds of oil pressure"
"It's still running. I'm packed and leaving"
"Sir your front left tire has a huge bubble on the inside"
"Sumb-tch ain't flat is it? Get out of the way or get run over"
Preparation Is The Key
I recommend anyone on the Baja California peninsula to visit medical facilities. Ask "Do you have a defibrillator, EKG machine, lab, x-ray machine,
cardiologist????????"
Don't bring a million dollar problem with you, is my advice. Get them stabilized and fixed in the states first. This is on the other person's
shoulders, the folks that are coming.
I cannot believe people who take meticulous care of their automobile, spend days tinkering with boat motors to acheive perfection and then totally
mistreat their physical being. An exam can save you and your loved ones a lot of grief.
A Lot To See And A Lot To Do
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EnsenadaDr
Banned
Posts: 5027
Registered: 9-12-2011
Location: Baja California
Member Is Offline
Mood: Move on. It is just a chapter in the past, but don't close the book- just turn the page
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You are not going to fix these problems, David. You can medicate, get surgery, but there is an exponential rise of arteriosclerosis with increased
age. Many expats are retirement age. You aren't going to fix that problem. You cannot "fix" heart disease. This is an over simplistic approach.
We are all going to die. When and where we might have a chance to change with the right equipment available. | Quote: | Originally posted by DavidE
...adhering to my earlier promise to not discuss the laws...
The best thing is person can do, by far, on an individual basis, is to get a full cardiac panel performed. Nuclear stress test, sonogram, x-ray,EKG,
blood work.
Before moving to Mexico (age 55+)
The test is not a comfortable one (but not painful), but if there are problems, like congestive heart failure impending, areas of the heart damaged,
signs of arrhythmia, under stress, they are going to have a good chance at finding it, prescribing a rational treatment, and pretty much lessening the
chances of a cardiac event from damaging or destroying your life.
"Sir, you motor has four pounds of oil pressure"
"It's still running. I'm packed and leaving"
"Sir your front left tire has a huge bubble on the inside"
"Sumb-tch ain't flat is it? Get out of the way or get run over"
Preparation Is The Key
I recommend anyone on the Baja California peninsula to visit medical facilities. Ask "Do you have a defibrillator, EKG machine, lab, x-ray machine,
cardiologist????????"
Don't bring a million dollar problem with you, is my advice. Get them stabilized and fixed in the states first. This is on the other person's
shoulders, the folks that are coming.
I cannot believe people who take meticulous care of their automobile, spend days tinkering with boat motors to acheive perfection and then totally
mistreat their physical being. An exam can save you and your loved ones a lot of grief. |
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BajaBlanca
Select Nomad
Posts: 13195
Registered: 10-28-2008
Location: La Bocana, BCS
Member Is Offline
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I like the idea of having even a couple of them available in different locations about town with various people qualified to use them.
Ralph, we have an ambulance here in La Bocana too but I can't remember the details - itis not for everyone (maybe only for those who have insurance
??) and the one in Abreojos is for everyone.
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Posada-BushPilot
Nomad
Posts: 126
Registered: 9-4-2006
Location: Carson City NV/Posada Conception, Mulege
Member Is Offline
Mood: Baja Brained
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Mr. or Ms. Soulpatch
You seem to know much more than I about these AED thingys. What do you mean "battery maintenance".
The two units we have, I think they are maybe 5 or 6 years old, but they have non-rechargable throw away batteries. I think the make is Medtronic or
something like that. So what would you do to maintain a battery like these have? Keep them at certain temp? Come to think of it, when you
cycle/boot up they show only 3 of 5 bars of battery strength which means the damn thing probably wouldn't be able to build up the needed volts?
So do you have any recommendations for best make model for a portable AED?
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EnsenadaDr
Banned
Posts: 5027
Registered: 9-12-2011
Location: Baja California
Member Is Offline
Mood: Move on. It is just a chapter in the past, but don't close the book- just turn the page
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From what I have gleaned (yes, I am still learning about this as well) the batteries are good for just 5 years. What you need to do is go to the
Internet look up the make and model and download the instructions. | Quote: | Originally posted by Posada-BushPilot
You seem to know much more than I about these AED thingys. What do you mean "battery maintenance".
The two units we have, I think they are maybe 5 or 6 years old, but they have non-rechargable throw away batteries. I think the make is Medtronic or
something like that. So what would you do to maintain a battery like these have? Keep them at certain temp? Come to think of it, when you
cycle/boot up they show only 3 of 5 bars of battery strength which means the damn thing probably wouldn't be able to build up the needed volts?
So do you have any recommendations for best make model for a portable AED? |
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windgrrl
Super Nomad
Posts: 1329
Registered: 9-2-2006
Member Is Offline
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Medtronic AED Manual, Trainer Manual, etc.
http://www.aedbrands.com/resource-center/maintenance/aed-doc...
The machines are pretty goof-proof to use, training is quick and simple, but it is useful to have AED training done with of CPR/1st Aid training, the
standards for which are updated regularly.
AEDs are great, but need to be put in context of a support system. Logistics for transfer cardiac care venue, especially if urgent/emergent care is
required would be important to consider and plan for.
Illness prevention and health promotion are equally necessary.
The most important point in taking on this technology in my opinion would be to get the community/key stakeholders to buy in to the idea since they
would be the ones who have to decide if this is a priority and then if they did would have to take on the care of this puppy.
[Edited on 10-27-2012 by windgrrl]
When the way comes to an end, then change. Having changed, you pass through.
~ I-Ching
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BajaBlanca
Select Nomad
Posts: 13195
Registered: 10-28-2008
Location: La Bocana, BCS
Member Is Offline
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well, sounds like it is the same issue as solar power batteries, which are only built to last 5 years and if very well maintained (control
temperature around them, add distilled water, keep them fullly charged), they might last a bit longer. If they are indeed like solar power batteries,
then they are not inexpensive either.
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MrBillM
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 21656
Registered: 8-20-2003
Location: Out and About
Member Is Offline
Mood: It's a Zip-a-Dee-Doo-Dah Day
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Forget the Gear
Just let nature take its course.
We've gone through life so far (and so good) without expecting to find a Jump-Starter wherever we go.
That said, as an alternative to a bunch of expensive equipment that may (or may not) ever be used (and, if used, may not help) we could all (who wish)
just carry a Stun Gun and give it a try if the situation presents itself.
It might work.
If not, oh well.
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rts551
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6699
Registered: 9-5-2003
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by BajaBlanca
I like the idea of having even a couple of them available in different locations about town with various people qualified to use them.
Ralph, we have an ambulance here in La Bocana too but I can't remember the details - itis not for everyone (maybe only for those who have insurance
??) and the one in Abreojos is for everyone. |
Maybe its like defibs, only for Gringos....ooooppppssss just kidding!
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MrBillM
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 21656
Registered: 8-20-2003
Location: Out and About
Member Is Offline
Mood: It's a Zip-a-Dee-Doo-Dah Day
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De-Fibbs in Baja
One difficulty might be their Value on a secondary market.
Oops, Gone.
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