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mtgoat666
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Alan
We are a country of laws but they are of no value if we choose to blatantly not enforce them. |
enforcing an unjust law (e.g. zonie show-me-your-paper-latino-profiling law) is violating the law.
a cop who breaks the law to enforce an unjust law is a bad cop.
as you said, the constitution is no good if we don't protect the civil rights provided in the constitution.
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k-rico
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Alan
| Quote: | Originally posted by Barry A.
Like "most" illegals are perhaps not a drag on the USA Society, most of those supporting the Arizona law are NOT bigots, or racists, despite what some
say.
Lets see how this all plays out.
Barry |
I believe the wrong word is in quotations in the above post. The point of this law is to identify those who are breaking the law with the key word
being "illegal". Az's new law does nothing to change the immigration policies of this country and makes no comment regarding the validity of those
laws already in place. It merely requires the enforcement of those laws.
Everyone of us already have our identification cards ie; driver license checked for warrants with every contact with law enforcement. Is checking our
immigration status at the same time really any different? We are a country of laws but they are of no value if we choose to blatantly not enforce
them. |
Yup. But I think the problem being voiced by many that local police enforcement of this federal law decreases the effectiveness of local police forces
is a valid one. Community policing to prevent crimes on person and property requires the trust and cooperation of the community. If illegals, which in
some neighborhoods compose a significant percentage of the population, are afraid that they will be deported as a result of contact with local police,
they'll avoid them.
Plus every arrest requires time (money) of each officer that makes an arrest. Arizona is going to find out that to effectively find and arrest
illegals already in the state is going to cost the local police forces a lot of money, which most don't have. Plus you need to jail and go through the
legal process for each person arrested. More time and money.
The new law will stop illegals from going to Arizona if it is enforced. It's going to cost big time to enforce this law in a manner that has any
effect on the problem.
Zonies, get ready for higher local taxes, and you're going to have to pay the guy that mows your lawn at least minimum wage.
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Barry A.
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Dave
| Quote: | Originally posted by capt. mike
Charlie Daniels weighs in
I don't need sensitivity lessons, in fact I don't have any-thing against Mexicans! I just have something against criminals...
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The Charlie Daniels I once knew broke this country's laws with regularity. In fact, some of the multiple, illegal products he used probably
came from Mexico.
Of course, now he's probably totally reformed... Probably doesn't even jaywalk. Which gives him the credibility to criticize others for their lawless
behavior.  |
Whether you, me, or Charley breaks the law, or not, has NOTHING to do with the validity of things that people say about what is "right" and what is
"wrong"--------"right" is right, period, and "wrong" is wrong, period, no matter who says it.
Hypocracy is not the issue------------we are all hypocrits!!!
--------and yes, "illegal" is the primary focus of this law, for sure. Good point!!!!
Barry
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k-rico
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http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/19/business/19illegals.html
"Illegal immigrants account for 12 percent of workers in food preparation occupations, ..... according to an analysis of census data by the Pew
Hispanic Center. In total, they account for an estimated one in 20 workers in the United States."
"More than half of the estimated seven million immigrants toiling illegally in the United States get a regular paycheck every week or two, experts
say. At the end of the year they receive a W-2 form. Come April 15, many file income tax returns using special ID numbers issued by the Internal
Revenue Service so foreigners can pay taxes. Some even get a refund check in the mail."
"The building maintenance industry — a highly competitive business where the company with the lowest labor costs tends to win the contract — has
welcomed them with open arms. According to the Pew Hispanic Center, more than a quarter of a million illegal immigrants are janitors, 350,000 are
maids and housekeepers and 300,000 are groundskeepers."
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"According to a recent study, 45 percent of illegal immigrants came here on a legal visa, and then overstayed that visa."
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5485917
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So, in addition to making entry difficult at points other than legal points of entry, a significant reduction in the problem of illegal immigration
can be achieved by solving the problems of them being able to find work and the inability to track foreigners that enter legally on a temporary basis
and don't leave.
Solving the overstaying the visa problem alone would cut illegal immigration almost in half.
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shari
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Mood: there is no reality except the one contained within us "Herman Hesse"
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I admit ignorance on this issue...but isnt there a law against hiring illegals?? who enforces THAT? why dont we hear alot of screaming about all the
illegal employers...about a big crackdown on them? If this is about enforcing the law...well then...shouldnt there be big raids on companies and
private homes?? and good old white folks and corporation heads arrested?? I'm just sayin....
standing on the sidelines, I see an unfair playing field
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k-rico
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Illegal immigration and terrorism?
Have any of the terrorists since Oklahoma City that have successfully pulled off their act or who have been caught prior to the act been illegal
aliens? I don't think so. Have any of them entered the country via Mexico? I don't think so. Have any of them been Mexican? Not yet.
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Barry A.
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| Quote: | Originally posted by shari
I admit ignorance on this issue...but isnt there a law against hiring illegals?? who enforces THAT? why dont we hear alot of screaming about all the
illegal employers...about a big crackdown on them? If this is about enforcing the law...well then...shouldnt there be big raids on companies and
private homes?? and good old white folks and corporation heads arrested?? I'm just sayin....
standing on the sidelines, I see an unfair playing field |
100% correct, Shari------------and it is appalling that it does not happen more often. No hiring of illegals, then probably a lot less illegals,
absolutely!!!
Barry
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k-rico
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To be prosecuted for hiring illegal aliens the government needs to prove that you knowingly hired illegal aliens. That's the problem
and where the national ID card (i.e. a passport type document) comes in. As it is now, proof of citizenship, or a work visa, is not required to get a
job. I don't remember having to show any kind of ID to get a job.
[Edited on 5-6-2010 by k-rico]
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Dave
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Make that ZERO
| Quote: | Originally posted by Barry A.
100% correct, Shari------------and it is appalling that it does not happen more often. No hiring of illegals, then probably a lot less
illegals, absolutely!!!
Barry |
If there were significant and strictly enforced penalties for hiring illegal immigrants you wouldn't find a single, solitary soul.
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shari
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Mood: there is no reality except the one contained within us "Herman Hesse"
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I think people like Oxxo's neighbour knows their cheap labourers are there illegally...which is why they work cheap NO??
I remember when the schools in the war on drugs wanted kids to fink on their parents and relatives who smoked pot...I can see it now...maybe the USA
will offer a reward for ratting out family and neighbours who have illegal maids, gardeners, construction workers, etc. Now THAT will be a hornets
nest.
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Bajaboy
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DianaT
| Quote: | Originally posted by shari
Oxxo's converstion with his neighbour was interesting...I bet this is VERY common. As many have mentioned, if there werent jobs available for
illegals, perhaps the flow would lessen. If the government takes a hard line on the illegals...why not take a hard line against their employers.
What about mandatory jail terms for ANYONE employing an illegal immigrant...then what would the prison population stats reveal? How many of your
neighbours and friends would be in the slammer. I bet there would be a fast bill introduced to legalize those workers. |
Yes, well said.
It is a very mixed message that is sent ---- don't cross the border, but do come and work for us.
And no matter how it is rationalized, supporting the Arizonia bill is a bigoted position.
Back to just reading again.
[Edited on 5-6-2010 by DianaT] |
There is a lot to the bill I agree with...so go ahead and call me a bigot
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Bajaboy
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Dave
| Quote: | Originally posted by Barry A.
100% correct, Shari------------and it is appalling that it does not happen more often. No hiring of illegals, then probably a lot less
illegals, absolutely!!!
Barry |
If there were significant and strictly enforced penalties for hiring illegal immigrants you wouldn't find a single, solitary soul.
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Agree 100%....
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k-rico
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| Quote: | Originally posted by shari
I think people like Oxxo's neighbour knows their cheap labourers are there illegally...which is why they work cheap NO??
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Sure, they probably know and would probably lie about it if prosecuted.
But your point that Americans hire illegal aliens and then beach about their existence is a good one.
I have a credit card sized passport card. Every citizen should have one. Similar documents should be required of permanent residents and those here on
work visas to get a job. If you hire someone without one of these, you're guilty. A low grade misdemeanor charge with a significant fine for each hire
might suffice.
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MrBillM
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Enforce and Enhance
Enforce ALL the Laws, including a crackdown on employers hiring Illegal Aliens no matter WHO they are. If the current law is inadequate, FIX it.
Throw those employers in Prison in the more flagrant cases. Fine them into Bankruptcy. Do WHATEVER can be done LEGALLY.
SHUT IT DOWN and THROW THEM OUT.
Let's see how sincere Liberals are when they preach Employer sanctions. My cynical belief is that they are simply using it as a diversionary response
to ANY Crackdown.
Don't let them get away with it.
Head em up and Move em out. We'll deal with it and find out how many jobs there are that Americans REALLY won't do. If necessary, that can be
resolved with a Guest Worker program.
Which, of course, the Liberals won't support.
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Barry A.
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| Quote: | Originally posted by MrBillM
Enforce ALL the Laws, including a crackdown on employers hiring Illegal Aliens no matter WHO they are. If the current law is inadequate, FIX it.
Throw those employers in Prison in the more flagrant cases. Fine them into Bankruptcy. Do WHATEVER can be done LEGALLY.
SHUT IT DOWN and THROW THEM OUT.
Let's see how sincere Liberals are when they preach Employer sanctions. My cynical belief is that they are simply using it as a diversionary response
to ANY Crackdown.
Don't let them get away with it.
Head em up and Move em out. We'll deal with it and find out how many jobs there are that Americans REALLY won't do. If necessary, that can be
resolved with a Guest Worker program.
Which, of course, the Liberals won't support. |
Bingo!!!!! Problem solved. All common sense solutions, Bill.
Barry
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Bajaboy
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| Quote: | Originally posted by lencho
| Quote: | Originally posted by MrBillM
We'll deal with it and find out how many jobs there are that Americans REALLY won't do. If necessary, that can be resolved with a Guest Worker
program. |
Or by raising wages for those "undesirable" jobs which are currently subsidizing inexpensive food and services in the USA. If that's what it takes,
I'd personally be willing to forsake the maid and gardener. :>
--Larry |
Yep Wages will rise if we eliminate the "subsidized" cheap labor pool.
Is this such an inhumane idea? Get a national id card and deport those here illegally and prosecute those who hire illegals. And then address legal
immigration issues.
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irenemm
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http://www.diggersrealm.com/mt/archives/002700.html
Go to the above web page and read about our cheap labor.
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mtgoat666
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that story is BS.
i am not surpised at the conservative approach to debate, citing anonymous fantastical writings on the internet, to support their bigoted world view.
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Alan
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| Quote: | Originally posted by shari
I admit ignorance on this issue...but isnt there a law against hiring illegals?? who enforces THAT? why dont we hear alot of screaming about all the
illegal employers...about a big crackdown on them? If this is about enforcing the law...well then...shouldnt there be big raids on companies and
private homes?? and good old white folks and corporation heads arrested?? I'm just sayin....
standing on the sidelines, I see an unfair playing field |
Yes there are laws on the books against hiring
illegals. Those laws must be enforced "concurrently" with Az's approach. Yes there are raids on companies when sufficient probable cause exists to
support a search warrant. Sting operations such as are currently employed to apprehend the consumer of drugs or prostitution should be expanded to
those who exploit the illegal worker by paying less than the mandatory minimum wage knowing that they won't report them. Make no mistake about it.
Those who hire illegals for their maid or gardener are exploiting people and holding them in poverty. They must be held equally accountable.
Immigration reform is long over due but our government continues to try to ignore that huge elephant in the room. We all know that the only way to
possibly eat an elephant is one bite at a time. As unpalateable as it may be, I have to applaud Arizona for having the courage to take that first
bite and there are many more bites that must be taken before this elephant will go away.
In Memory of E-57
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Bajahowodd
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Digger (aka Dan Amato)= Minuteman Project head case.
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