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wessongroup
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http://jg.socialsciences.manchester.ac.uk/docs/Manchester/Ba...
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ramuma53
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SFandH
You can now buy from an ejido, because they have the right to take a part of the ejido out of the Ejido regime and make it private property.
That is a short statement but a long legal procedure.
First when you make a deal with the Ejido direction, you have to go to an assembly meeting and make the full ejidatarios group approve your deal; you
have to be sure there is quorum at that meeting and be sure a Procuraduria Agraria and SRA representatives are there and also a Public notary who will
certify that THE QUORIM IS LEGAL.
Then you have lega approval for your deal, but DO NOT PAY A PENNY YET.
Now they have to go to the SRA and show that the Ejido has no legal procedures or debt or court cases open against them or from them to other people
and that all their paperwork is legal and right.
Then they are approved to take the land out of the ejido common property and make it Ejido private property, take that order to the public registry
office and register it as private property belonging to the Ejido and then and only then you can buy from them and go to the Public registry office
and put it on your name.
The fact that they now can sell their land does not mean they can do it easy; it is long difficult administrative and legal procedure with lots of
problems to solve before you can buy.
In Baja, only a few can do it legally without making shortcuts that will bring you problems in the future and one of those problems may be losing your
money.
As an example; you know Carlos Slim, the richest guy on earth for 3 consecutive years; for sure very powerful and certainly more than you or me.
He wanted to buy from an ejido in Bahia Concepcion Santispak beach; he tried to correct all the problems involved, for 5 years, paid them a lot and
finally they voided his buy and is now in limbo.
Want to try, be my guest, but be ready for years of trying and lots of problems and then be ready for Ejido directors changes and of course opinion
change and then price changes. Certainly not for normal people to try.
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SFandH
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Thanks 53. That's exactly what I was wondering about. Interesting that Carlos Slim couldn't make it happen.
Do you know about the property at Los Cerritos, south of Todos Santos? It's my understanding that it was Ejido property that several years ago
completed the privatization process. True?
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Cypress
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All jokes aside. I wouldn't buy a bucket of dirt from down there if the postage was free.
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ramuma53
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My friend
Juzgado Mixto de paz is a local judge and that mean that the property papers they showed you, are what we call a Prescripcion Positiva or Negativa
based on a Jurisdiccion Voluntaria.
That kind of ruling never reach a definitive status, it is subjected to the possibility that a real owner show up; in other words, the Juez Mixto de
Paz name you or allow you to call yourself the owner for the mean while the real owner show up. This kind of ruling is used when you are planning to
ask the judge to name you the definitve land owner based on time limitation.
In this case, the real owner is the Nation and is not subjected to time limitation or any other kind of adjudication by any local authority and that
mean the Juzgado Mixto de Paz is out of jurisdiction to grant the ownership of that land; that does not mean the judge is doing something wrong, only
that nobody told him the land owner is the Nation or he would have declined to hear the case and send it to the Federal judge who would send it to the
National land office who has the jurisdiction over National Land.
That mean that the property documents were issued by an out of jurisdiction authority and is a absolute void document; it may exist for a while as
long as the real owner show up, but it is void document in any court against a National title.
De: craig wutsch
Enviado el: miércoles, 28 de marzo de 2012 12:59 p.m.
Para: director@munoz-industries.com
Asunto: Re: property titles
Rafael. I know you are busy, but can you please take a look at these documents and give my your quick expert opinion? Woooosh
On Mar 22, 2012, at 11:27 AM, CWoooosh wrote:
> Hello Raphael. I know you are busy in Baja Sur, but I need a quick favor
> please. This is in the spirit of protecting USA investors in Rosarito.
>
> I was contacted by a Realtor friend in San Diego who wants to sell two
> oceanfront parcels in Rosarito Beach on behalf of his client. (see attached
> photo of the parcels: mirmamar1.jpg). I asked him to provide the SRA legal
> land title, but the current owners have only the documents above which were created by the Juzgado Mixto court in Playas de Rosarito. I believe
this
> area is part of Rancho La Costa Azul and no legal land title exists as of
> yet, although RLCA has completed the financial transactions with the
> National Land Office (SRA). What is you legal opinion of the documents
> presented in regards to selling this property to another party.
>
> Thanks- Craig
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ramuma53
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SFandH
Sorry for taking so long to answer your question.
Todos los Santos and all Baja Ejidos were created by Virtual executions and that mean imaginary executions that the Supreme Court has ruled as
inexistent execution and that mean that they have received no land in a formal way and as a legal consequence, they can not prove any land lot belong
to them with technical formality.
Historically that happened during the Lazaro Card##as period as President, he created so many ejidos at once that the SRA or Agrarian Department then,
was unable and had no people to make all the legal procedures needed to create an ejido; to solve that problem, they invented the Virtual execution
and then they just sent an engineer to the local airport and there he just declared made all the technical works needed to create several ejidos,
hoping that in the future the formal technical works would be made to validate the act.
Sorry but that has never happened and today there is no political will to spend the amount of money needed to formally execute all those ejudos
created.
In the mean while the ejidos have no formal technical works and really do not know what land was granted to them and have no legal possibility to
prove that no land lot is in or out of their land, because their land was never defined exactly.
Of course nobody want you to know that the Baja Ejidos are really disarmed and hopeless untill they have real technical works that validate their
legal creation.
[Edited on 3-29-2012 by ramuma53]
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ramuma53
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Cypress
If you do not know what you are doing, Baja is not for your making Real Estate business.
Also remember that dificulty make oportunity.
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Cypress
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ramuma53, Thanks for the advice. Have come to the same conclusion.
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Woooosh
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| Quote: | Originally posted by ramuma53
My friend
Juzgado Mixto de paz is a local judge and that mean that the property papers they showed you, are what we call a Prescripcion Positiva or Negativa
based on a Jurisdiccion Voluntaria.
That kind of ruling never reach a definitive status, it is subjected to the possibility that a real owner show up; in other words, the Juez Mixto de
Paz name you or allow you to call yourself the owner for the mean while the real owner show up. This kind of ruling is used when you are planning to
ask the judge to name you the definitve land owner based on time limitation.
In this case, the real owner is the Nation and is not subjected to time limitation or any other kind of adjudication by any local authority and that
mean the Juzgado Mixto de Paz is out of jurisdiction to grant the ownership of that land; that does not mean the judge is doing something wrong, only
that nobody told him the land owner is the Nation or he would have declined to hear the case and send it to the Federal judge who would send it to the
National land office who has the jurisdiction over National Land.
That mean that the property documents were issued by an out of jurisdiction authority and is a absolute void document; it may exist for a while as
long as the real owner show up, but it is void document in any court against a National title.
De: craig wutsch
Enviado el: miércoles, 28 de marzo de 2012 12:59 p.m.
Para: director@munoz-industries.com
Asunto: Re: property titles
Rafael. I know you are busy, but can you please take a look at these documents and give my your quick expert opinion? Woooosh
On Mar 22, 2012, at 11:27 AM, CWoooosh wrote:
> Hello Raphael. I know you are busy in Baja Sur, but I need a quick favor please. This is in the spirit of protecting USA investors in Rosarito.
>
I was contacted by a Realtor friend in San Diego who wants to sell two oceanfront parcels in Rosarito Beach on behalf of his client. (see attached
photo of the parcels: mirmamar1.jpg). I asked him to provide the SRA legal land title, but the current owners have only the documents above which
were created by the Juzgado Mixto court in Playas de Rosarito. I believe this area is part of Rancho La Costa Azul and no legal land title exists as
of yet, although RLCA has completed the financial transactions with the National Land Office (SRA). What is you legal opinion of the documents
presented in regards to selling this property to another party.
>
> Thanks- Craig |
Thanks Raphael. It would seem the legal documents are nothing more than a fancy reservation to buy a piece of land that had already been purchased
in 1993 by Rancho La Costa Azul (Rosarito coastline). Value is zero. (and this elderly Mexican couple has had these papers for 20 years and thought
it was a land title the could use for a sale).
\"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing\"
1961- JFK to Canadian parliament (Edmund Burke)
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Woooosh
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(Transfer to this thread for comment)
[Edited on 3-30-2012 by Woooosh]
\"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing\"
1961- JFK to Canadian parliament (Edmund Burke)
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Woooosh
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Raphael. Today I filed another set of papers with the PGJE. You were right about the corruption in Rosarito. I had the mayor's office stamp my
letter and then took the letter (6 pages with docs/photos) around the building to ask if someone knew who the man is. Someone pointed me to the
Recaudacion/ZOFEMAT office. The man in the photos below works for the Robles administration in the Rosarito palacio in the office of ZOFEMAT. I went
into ZOFEMAT and asked the same guys I always deal with if the man works with them. They sheepishly said said yes, looked over all the info and
photos, and said they would get the stamped document to him. I told them I had a second stamped set to take to the PGJE, which I did. PGJE was
great- out file is a foot high and they looked over what "new we had" and accepted and stamped our Denunica.
I'm disappointed in the Rosarito ZOFEMAT office. This was same office that said they were helping us. He must be higher up to rate a driver and city
vehicle than the guys I deal with there.
He comes late night to yell at Tila Texana with a folder in his hand. She cries, holds him and begs him not to do what he came to do. He works for
Mayor Robles in the ZOFEMAT /Recaudacion office:
Serving papers at the next building in daytime:
[Edited on 3-30-2012 by Woooosh]
\"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing\"
1961- JFK to Canadian parliament (Edmund Burke)
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JoeJustJoe
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Woooosh
Raphael. Today I filed another set of papers with the PGJE. You were right about the corruption in Rosarito. I had the mayor's office stamp my
letter and then took the letter (6 pages with docs/photos) around the building to ask if someone knew who the man is. Someone pointed me to the
Recaudacion/ZOFEMAT office. The man in the photos below works for the Robles administration in the Rosarito palacio in the office of ZOFEMAT. I went
into ZOFEMAT and asked the same guys I always deal with if the man works with them. They sheepishly said said yes, looked over all the info and
photos, and said they would get the stamped document to him. I told them I had a second stamped set to take to the PGJE, which I did. PGJE was
great- out file is a foot high and they looked over what "new we had" and accepted and stamped our Denunica.
I'm disappointed in the Rosarito ZOFEMAT office. This was same office that said they were helping us. He must be higher up to rate a driver and city
vehicle than the guys I deal with there.
[Edited on 3-30-2012 by Woooosh] |
Woooosh exactly what are the guys guilty of in these photos you posted from your surveillance equipment? What is the corruption crime?
Did the workers at the " PGJE" office role their eyes again when you Wooooosh showed up again? I hear you complain in the office all the time, and
they are pretty sick of seeing your face and your 100 pages of documents you bring, and I doubt anybody reads those documents or even wants to help
you anymore. Quit being a pest Woooosh.
Woooosh edited his post to include this written below:
He comes late night to yell at Tila Texana with a folder in his hand. She cries, holds him and begs him not to do what he came to do. He works
for Mayor Robles in the ZOFEMAT /Recaudacion office:
Woooosh you really need to quit spying on everybody who shows up at your neighborhood's house across the street Ms Ortiz's home. It's just so creepy
and really you have no idea why those visitors are there. You're just guessing, and engaging in wishful thinking.
Ms Ortiz is not going anywhere. That's her home, and she isn't going to let anybody kick her out, especially you Woooosh!
[Edited on 3-31-2012 by JoeJustJoe]
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Woooosh
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I think Zeta will figure it all out. I think this whole thing is the tail end of a land scheme gone bad. The accelerated beach erosion caused by a
new jetty took away over a hundred meters of beach in 20 years. No one changed their development plans though and they charged along as if they
weren't building right in the water. Once the buildings broke the continuity (walk-ability) of the beach- the problem could no longer be concealed
and the Federal Zone Lines corrected... all the way to the street. Tila Texana was too late to the party and Raphael and I were the party-poopers so
to speak. If they hadn't tried to sell them with clear titles, it would be different. With risk comes rewards- but not this time. That's why it's
called "risk". The building next to hers is for sale for $625K on CraigsList. They don't own it or have the title to it either. There's no shame in
Mexico and no one will blame them for trying. But the fraud against US investors would have done more damage to the local real estate market. New
Total for this block alone in fraud prevented is now $6Million USD. Tila=$199K, old condos=$625K, Playa Bonita tower=$5.2Million.
Bad for Rosarito: "Unresolved Real Estate frauds affect the Image of BC"
http://www.uniradioinforma.com/noticias/articulo107211.html
[Edited on 3-31-2012 by Woooosh]
\"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing\"
1961- JFK to Canadian parliament (Edmund Burke)
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Katiejay99
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Ramuma53, I have a question/comment for you. I read what you said about the Southern Baja Ejidos and so my question is this: Are you saying that all
of the titles which were issued via the Eido of Pescadero for Los Cerritos Beach are not worth the paper they were written on? The Los Cerritos Beach
area was privatized through a draw process at the Pescadero Ejio and all of the Ejiditarios (members of the Ejido) were each given lots (I think that
it was 14 lots each). They drew numbers and had no idea where those lots were until the actual final plans came out along with the titles (which the
Ejido began and finished the process).
I know there are other ways to purchase property through the Ejido, and many Mexicans get their properties in this manner. I am aware that an Ejido
can identify an area, name it and begin the process of getting the titles for the lots which are sold to non-members of the Ejido who then receive a
"Constancia" which is their proof of ownership. When the titles do come out, they must have the original of this Constancia in order to pick up their
titles. This has been a legal way for many Mexicans to get land cheap, build on it and wait for the titles without any adverse effect. This has
happened many times in Cabo San Lucas, Pescadero, Todos Santos and Migrino.
Are you saying that it has been done illegally? Just asking.
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wessongroup
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An update on Woooosh's legal dispute
"In accordance with the provisions of Article 35, paragraph II of the Federal Administrative Procedure Act attached hereto, Administrative Resolution
No. 1162/12, issued by the Ministry of Environment and Natural Resources, through this General Headquarters of the Federal Maritime Land and Coastal
Environment, hereby upholds the validity of concession DGZF-832/08, granted in your favor June 23, 2008."
In simpler terms, this means the federal government of Mexico has upheld the validity of Alonzo's concession and that Otila Ortiz is illegally living
on Alonzo's concession.
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ramuma53
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Mr. Woosh
You are on the right track but the roa long, it will take a lot to erradiate corruption in Rosaito and more if Enrique Esquivel Win the election for
major.
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ramuma53
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Katiejay99
Most of the Ejidos in Baja north and South obtained the property through a Virtual posession procedure that in fact is not a real procedure; Supreme
court has issued rulings saying that an Ejido Virual Execution is not an execution at all and that mean that all the Baja Ejidos received absolutely
no land in legal way and none has repaired that legal flaw that render all their property rights void.
Some Ejidos have attempted to repair the major legal flaw through INEGI but they hav mainly done nothing right.
Result, all the Baja Ejidos suffer from a major legal flaw that render their entire property right void and they have been pilling procedure on a void
foundation.
According to Supreme Court the ejido has no legal right to land as long as they do not receive the land through a completely legal procedure called
execution and a virtual execution is not a legal execution.
The historical reason:
When the Baja ejidos were founded during the Lazaro Card##as presidency, the Mexico government tried to create 1000s of ejidos all over Mexico, but in
4 years it was impossible to go to the place, measure the land; legally call all the neighbors bordering them and affected people; top do that in a
perfect legal way, it would have taken 30 years and the government wanted to do it inside the Lazaro Card##as presidency but were unable, they had no
technical means.
The they violating the law, created a procedure named VIRTUAL EXECUTION and a single engineer was going from one airport to another, executing 10 to
20 Ejidos in a single day without even visiting the land; that was the only way to accomplish the presidential orders and they did it that way.
But doing it, they were violating all the affected people constitutional rights to not be affected by an arbitrary government acts and they were being
deprived of their lands without a judge order or even a simple legal procedure and that render all the virtual executions void and not existent.
The fact that the Execution for an ejido does not exist, mean that they did not received any land in a legal way and that mean, that even if they have
an incontrovertible right to own some land, the exact land lot has never been measured and given to them. That is the Supreme Court opinion for a long
time.
If you go in to the ejido papers and find they were given the land through a Virtual execution, that mean they cannot prove where is their land and no
land can be proved to be inside their land; also they cannot sell you any land because they do not know if that land is theirs.
It is a fact that all the Baja North and South ejidos were issued through a Virtual execution and absolutely none has repaired the basic legal flaw,
mostly because doing it today will cost them several million dollars each.
They can tell you all the lies they want, but we have no knowledge about any of those ejidos doing the legal execution and more because today the
government is trying to get read of the ejidos, not creating them. Ejidos were a historical legal and economic mistake for Mexico and nobody want to
preserve them anmd they are just letting them lose the land to private property slowly but surely.
Advice, do not buy from an Ejido in Baja, dont mind what they say.
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Udo
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This is one that I am staying out of, but I personally feel that ramuma53 is right on the money on this one.
Ejidos have always been a nebulous legal area, and many have lost lots of money hanging on to what was never theirs...they just thought it was theirs.
A great layer can get around most ejido land grants.
Udo
Youth is wasted on the young!
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monoloco
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Around here, the ejido had the land surveyed, divided into lots, then distributed the lots to members lottery. The beneficiaries were then issued
national escrituras on them.
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ramuma53
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Please be advised that there is no such thing as National escrituras.
What the federal government or what it used to be the Reforma Agraria, issued them was a full dominium parcel title, that suppose to give them full
ownership to heir parcel, but:
Only if the initial execution legal work was a legal one the titles would be fully legal, it they are based on a Virtual execution, they are
worthless, because they cannot prove that any land was assign to the ejido and in a consequence, the titles refer to virtual land right that we will
not be able to located in the real world.
If you build on sand, even if you building is beautiful, has many floors and looks straight, it will fall down under any stress; Baja Ejidos are just
waiting to be tested by people who know what they are doing and they will lose every legal battle and if you bought from an ejido, you will lose with
them; titles or no full ownership titles and that is why I advise Americans never to buy from Baja Ejidos. (Just remember Punta Banda in Ensenada).
Only Primo Tapia ejido has done a real legal work to repair that flaw.
Also, supposing that the virtual execution flaw was corrected, ejido land can be sold, but only if you take the land out of the ejido dominium, even
if the ejido people has the full ownership, it refer to an ejido land lot that belong to the ejido and you must follow a difficult and dangerous
procedure to take that lot out of ejido land, and once you do that, then it is private property that you can own, and yes, own even if you are an
American, because the new law allow you now to have full ownership on the coastal strip that used to be banned to foreigners.
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