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bajagrouper
Senior Nomad
Posts: 964
Registered: 8-28-2003
Location: Rincon de Guayabitos, Nayarit, Mexico
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Mood: happy and retired
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Quote: Originally posted by toocoldincanada  | hi mtgoat666,
I do get it that paying $$ in advance is a risk. Thank you for your response. We are in contact with our lawyer.
What I am looking for is anyone who Knows any of the L*reto B** scam that could share with me what happened there. It is a dangerous game that is
being played right now.
Thanks in advance. |
Paying in advance, How many people was it that paid over 70 million dollars for the Trump Towers Baja scam?
I hear the whales song
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huesos
Nomad
Posts: 149
Registered: 6-24-2013
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Correct me if I am wrong but I think that it is clear that I must have a fidelcomiso formed on any piece of land that I buy in Baja under Mexican
federal law. As part of this process, does the bank not do the title search using their own legal team? I am sure that prior to even thinking about
doing a land purchase, I will still want to consult a lawyer known to me as experienced and competent in real estate transactions. I have talked to
any number of land selling operations in my area that tell me' you can pay us directly' and in doing so take me for an idiot.
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BajaBlanca
Select Nomad
Posts: 13195
Registered: 10-28-2008
Location: La Bocana, BCS
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I have never heard of a bank doing a title search.
They are simply the guardians of the fidecomiso.
They don't even send a reminder that fees are due.
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gnukid
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4411
Registered: 7-2-2006
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The Notorio that process the sale does a title search.
A sale to a foreigner in baja without a fidocomiso can occur within a corporation where real estate holding is a designated function.
Money is transferred to the seller directly from the buyer in the presence of the notorio. First thing to do is go see a notorio.
A lawyer can help but you should be clear about what actions they are responsible for if any, they can also cause more problems.
Most real estate transactions in Mexico occur directly between seller and buyer and Notorio and do not involve "bank agents" "title agents" "real
estate agents" or "lawyers" who do not seem to have defined fiduciary responsibilities nor liabilities.
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chippy
Super Nomad
Posts: 1715
Registered: 2-2-2010
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I think gnu means notario. Most notarios (not all) are lawyers.
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huesos
Nomad
Posts: 149
Registered: 6-24-2013
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title fraud
So what you are saying is that the bank has no responsibility in assuring that the fidelcomiso is issued on a property with valid title. In essence,
they would be establishing a legal trust on top of a bogus transaction. This makes absolutely no sense in Mexico or any where in the world.
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chuckie
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6082
Registered: 2-20-2012
Location: Kansas Prairies
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Mood: Weary
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Correcto....
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gnukid
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4411
Registered: 7-2-2006
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The Notario, (appointed by governor?) has responsibility to check history on the property, but a Notario office may be represented by family
(children) of the actual assigned Notario (lawyer) handling cases while the lawyer is not there, ever.
A fidicomiso is a financial tool for beneficiary of a trust commonly used in baja for foreigners to buy homes in the restricted zone. It could be used
for other purposes. In the case of foreigners buying homes it's sort of a gimmick to gift money to another party (appointed by governor?) The office
apparently does not check or do anything, ever and may not have correct info about you or the home or the amount due.
[Edited on 8-14-2016 by gnukid]
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bajaguy
Elite Nomad
Posts: 9247
Registered: 9-16-2003
Location: Carson City, NV/Ensenada - Baja Country Club
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Mood: must be 5 O'clock somewhere in Baja
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You are attempting to use logic and "north of the border" thinking in this issue.
The bank doesn't care. All it wants is the money from the set up and annual fees. If the property transaction is bogus, the bank made money off of the
deal.
| Quote: Originally posted by huesos | | So what you are saying is that the bank has no responsibility in assuring that the fidelcomiso is issued on a property with valid title. In essence,
they would be establishing a legal trust on top of a bogus transaction. This makes absolutely no sense in Mexico or any where in the world.
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DENNIS
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 29510
Registered: 9-2-2006
Location: Punta Banda
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| Quote: Originally posted by huesos | | So what you are saying is that the bank has no responsibility in assuring that the fidelcomiso is issued on a property with valid title. In essence,
they would be establishing a legal trust on top of a bogus transaction. This makes absolutely no sense in Mexico or any where in the world.
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This was at the heart of the Punta Banda expropriation debacle. It's way down on the list of "senseless in Mexico."
"YOU CAN'T LITTER ALUMINUM"
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wilderone
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3814
Registered: 2-9-2004
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Re: "... the L*reto B** scam that could share with me what happened there."
As I recall, their pitch was cloaked in ethereal phrases to create a "you can have this dream" mentality. They PROMISED. They promised a club house
where you could take classes, little doors in the windows of condos where bakery goods would be delivered, a wine cellar, the golf course, a
desalination plant, a aquaduct to kayak in, a community vegetable garden. To finance ALL this, they sold lots which paid for the initial construction
of some of the homes - their homes got built first in the "founders" neighborhood. However, this finance scheme would never be enough to cover
administration and consultants' salaries, the common area improvements as well. The materials and labor all came from far away. Did they understand
at the get-go how this worked and what it would cost? Don't think so - they siad they had a brainstorming meeting and came up with their plan. They
promised housing for the construction workers. Didn't happen. They said a portion of each lot sold would go into a trust to benefit the town of
Loreto. This occurred to an extent, but a large portion of the money was wasted or self-serving. E.g., big money spent on a study to develop the coast
of Baja CA in "their" way. What caca, what egotism. Money spent on a refuse management system that was actually owned by Butterfield.
LB people did. not. understand. Baja CA or its people or what would fit. They said, incredibly, that LB would be an "authentic" Mexican town. How can
this be, when it is brand new. Butterfield, et al took a trip to the ruins of the southwest to get ideas on design. (!!??) Like the indigenous'
adobes of Utah are just the same as Californio rancheros. They first said it would be Mexican Colonial. Hmmm - different era, different history -
doesn't fit. "Authentic" Baja CA town with no church, no taco stands, no restaurants, no panaderia, no Mexicans. Just another development akin to
Civita in Arizona (?) which Butterfield touted to his credit (when, in fact, if you research this, his name is nowhere mentioned).
They hired an architectural consultant who developed some personal issue with a local woman, another consultant from some Inuit village in Alaska
whose claim to fame was to develop a theatre group (not sure what he brought to the LB table). I think the finance officer quit. In short, their
"team" was certainly not helpful to furthering construction of sold homes.
It was inevitable that without massive inflow of funds to develop the common area improvements, there would be a shortfall. So they invited Citibank
to the party who lent them funds for Citibank's first "sustainable" development project. Woe is them. I'm sure LB wooed Citibank with the same
pie-in-sky promises. They sold off some of their property to FONATUR I believe for additional capital. As time went on and promises were not
fulfilled, they bailed, leaving the wreckage in their wake for someone else to clean up. There simply was not enough money to pay themselves, the
laborers, give the tours to prospective buyers on the subsidized trips (they subsidized an airline to fly them in I believe), keep putting out the
fancy literature and flying around the SW giving presentations AND actually build homes. I went to one of the presentations which was held at one of
the most expensive restaurants in San Diego - the food served was first rate. They flew to Scottsdale, Canada, San Francisco.
I'm sure they did not know what Mexican law affected the LB project as far as the Marine Preserve, labor laws and utilities were concerned. They
promised a desal plant, but ended up using water from the aquifer. They had a nice drawing of the desal plant to show people.
For another development project in Canada, there is little you can do to insulate yourself from exploitation if you pay large sums up front, unless
local law dictates certain consumer rights. If they are in violation of consumer rights laws, then you will have some teeth in the matter. In
California, only 10% can be paid upfront. Subsequent payments on a schedule as the building is being completed. If it wasn't completed, then no money
is paid. As for common area improvements as part of the package that you expect, that is just a gamble. Butterfield is a dreamer without solid
building credentials. He may have been involved for many years, but his true successes are few and far between. He'll drag out some tidbit of
something he was involved in and state in glorious terms that he was responsible for whatever success occurred. There's that Sustainable Canadian
Trust - whatever that is - acquiring large tracts of land that they want to put houses on. They use words to put a spin on same-old.
The other guy - forget his name - started arbitraging Canadian bonds or something after the LB debacle, is/was a board member of the Cancer Ctr in
Arizona - his claim to fame was being on the board to develop the Arizona football stadium - he loves spending other people's money. Have no idea why
he was a principal of LB development.
If you can honestly say to yourself that you don't want what Butterfield has sold you, then get out now before THEY walk. Just get out - I would have
NO faith in what Butterfield has told you. Go to the newspaper and tell them the LB story. Demand your money back and find something else that is
already built.
I had 6 inches of a paper trail on LB - I detested what they were doing - but when I got laid off, it all went in the trash.
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wilderone
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3814
Registered: 2-9-2004
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There's a very long message thread on Loreto Bay from back in the day on this forum, if it's still available in archives, that brings up most of the
issues.
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pacificobob
Super Nomad
Posts: 2298
Registered: 4-23-2006
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don't confuse having a title searched, with actual title insurance. i know lots of gringo owners who have purchased property without buying title
insurance. a questionable move in my opinion. there are folks in my area who, after years of ownership are being challenged as to the rightful
ownership of their property.
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huesos
Nomad
Posts: 149
Registered: 6-24-2013
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valid title
Who sells title insurance? If you buy it, who does the research? I've seen the office of something called Baja Title. The authorities on this thread
seem to indicate that there is no way to authenticate anything regarding legal ownership. This smells like bull.
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DENNIS
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 29510
Registered: 9-2-2006
Location: Punta Banda
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Legitimate title insurance is unavailable here. As is malpractice insurance for a doctor. They don't need it since you can't sue them for their
effups.
Things are a bit different here.
.
[Edited on 8-14-2016 by DENNIS]
"YOU CAN'T LITTER ALUMINUM"
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gnukid
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4411
Registered: 7-2-2006
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You can do your own title research or go with someone like the Notario who knows how since you are paying them to do it. See for yourself what the
history of the ownership is. Is the property owned by the seller? This is why most transactions in Mexico are direct from seller to buyer, the less
people involved the less potential for problems. The more people you call saying you have money to spend the more chance someone will steal it. I
would not be involved with any corporate developments, real estate agents (no such agency exists in baja nor fiduciary responsibility so you are
paying for an imagined agent), nor so called helpful lawyers (are they lawyers, do they ever do any legal work, do you have any proof). Go interview a
few Notarios (who are actually lawyers who process title transactions) and find one you trust and ask every question. The interview is free. Then
proceed to find a home they can verify is owned by the person selling it.If you can't verify yo are talking to the seller walk away. The seller has to
show current registered titled, no debts on the property, all taxes and utilities etc. paid in full with stamped proof by each office, notario,
ayuntamiento, electrical, water, hacienda. Is there a business registered to the house? That could be bad. Then go slowly forward and delay if any
problems or paper is incomplete. You don't pay the Notario or bank fidicomiso until the process is done or half when they start paperwork and half
when complete. The research is free and should be presented by the seller to the buyer to confirm. There are also local paper pushers who can be
helpful but who knows if they are really doing what they are supposed to unless you go with them every step of the way. Paper pushers could be the
source of the problem. It makes more sense that you go yourself to see the location of local offices and see the actual process with your eyes and
hold the papers in your hands.
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JoeJustJoe
Banned
Posts: 21045
Registered: 9-9-2010
Location: Occupied Aztlan
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Mood: Mad as hell
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| Quote: Originally posted by DENNIS | | Quote: Originally posted by huesos | | So what you are saying is that the bank has no responsibility in assuring that the fidelcomiso is issued on a property with valid title. In essence,
they would be establishing a legal trust on top of a bogus transaction. This makes absolutely no sense in Mexico or any where in the world.
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This was at the heart of the Punta Banda expropriation debacle. It's way down on the list of "senseless in Mexico." |
Dennis other quote: "Legitimate title insurance is unavailable here."
Dennis do you have any legitimate links that could back up your ridiculous statement that there is "no legitimate title insurance here" I take it you
are talking about all of Mexico or at least all of Baja.
To make you statement true, I guess all the American ex-pats that owned property in Punda Banda, had title insurance, and the title insurance didn't
work for them?
I think I know where Dennis gets his erroneous information from but I doubt he actually researched the information himself.
The other side of the coin are ex-pats claiming "title insurance" in Mexico is cure-all when Americans are buying title insurance......it's not!
I would say the truth lies somewhere in the middle, regarding title insurance in Mexico. It's not completely worthless as Dennis is hinting at, nor
is it a cure-all.
I would say title insurance is like other insurance polices, the answer is in the "fine print" be sure to read the fine print and the EXCLUSIONS of
the title insurance policy.
[Edited on 8-14-2016 by JoeJustJoe]
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mtnpop
Senior Nomad
Posts: 597
Registered: 9-8-2009
Location: Colorado/mulege
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Seems that most of BAJA is in the Federal Restricted Zone.. If you buy a house on a leased lot no fideicomiso is required..as you don't own the dirt..
so to speak..
The structure is not listed on the fideicomiso but a copy of the fideicomiso is required when you go to pay the property taxes the first time...
Notarios are usually a lifetime appointment and handed down to family. Also sometimes the notario hires someone to handle things while they hold
public office or play golf or whatever...
Stewart Title has offices in BAJA but no clue what they do for you or what their charges are.. When we had our house for sale we received a note from
them wanting to handle the sale.. We did not pursue that one. Facilitators as some call them charge up to $1000 US to handle the paperwork thru the
process at the Notario.. Most Notario's we have talked with are only fluent in Spanish. The fideicomisos we have look and read similar to the old
"Abstract" as used still in some states.. big thick book. We received a condensed version along with the big book of horrors... Lots of crazy
charges that can total up to $7000US or so.
I have understood that you can also negotiate the annual bank charge but doubt that works... Interaciones in LaPaz is not a bank,, just an office with
a couple of punkins collecting the $$$ that go we do not know where.. Seems like a big cash cow for someone...
Any changes in ownership, death, divorce, etc will incur more charges in the 4 figures to update the fideicomiso to current
This will probably stir up a lot of comment as it seems that not all experiences by nomads have been the same..
Common sense is a flower that doesn\'t grow in everyone\'s garden.....
A wise man once spoke nothing.....
Never kick a cow chip on a hot day!!
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DENNIS
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 29510
Registered: 9-2-2006
Location: Punta Banda
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Well, joe just dimwit..... I won't even begin to verify my statement that something doesn't exist. I'll leave it to you to verify that it does. Refer
to one known case of title insurance success.
Remember to predicate your reply on my operative word..."legitimate." That means verifiable and reliable.
I have no idea who in PB had what. You ask them. It's part of your blockhead quest.
Who the eff left the gate open in off topic to allow this creep to mingle in public?
"YOU CAN'T LITTER ALUMINUM"
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chuckie
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6082
Registered: 2-20-2012
Location: Kansas Prairies
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